FORUM CLINIC: Picking the best DCC system

[selector]

We'll wait, Joe. I hope you're better by the time you read this. I'll bet you're glad to get this one out of the way before the holidays!

-Crandell

[CrazyDiamond]

Frig......take your time....get your rest....heal first...your health comes first!! [:)]

[jfugate]

Been really laid out with a bad cold this week and spending a lot of time in bed. Maybe if I can get back on my feet by the weekend, I'll see if I can post a Zimo review.

[CrazyDiamond]

Hi Joe!

Any Zimo reports coming soon? If you were to do another thread, perhaps a Zimo versus Digitrax report...that would be fine too.

I personally am very interested in the strengths, & weaknesses of Digitrax and Zimo when it comes to ABS, and CTC, with and without the use of an external Windows OS computer.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPM335

QUOTE: Originally posted by knewsom

JPM335,
I also do not know which decoder was in the engine that had the issues with the lights on in an even speed step and off on an odd, but I have read in other forums that if the decoder is set to 14 speed steps and the command station is sending out 28 or 128 speed steps, that this problem can occur. Just something to look into to try and remedy the problem.

Thanks for the tip, Ill relay that to the club.

Exactly my thoughts too. The issues you describe sound exactly like what happens when the command station and decoder speed step settings are out of sync.

Decoders have a 14, 28 or 128 speed step setting. Whatever you set the decoder to, the command station must be set to be sending out the same 14, 28, or 128 speed steps for that loco address or you will get erratic function behavior (lights, horn, etc) and rough loco speed handling (sometimes perhaps just two speeds - too slow and too fast, with nothing in between).

So it's probably not your MRC system itself that's acting buggy ... most DCC systems will exhibit this kind of odd or erratic behavior if you don't have the speed steps in the decoder and the command station in set the same for your loco addresses.

Most decoders default to 14 steps, which works okay. Modern decoders almost all do 128 speed steps which gives your loco very smooth speed performance, assuming you also set the command station to 128 speed steps for that loco address!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by knewsom

JPM335,
I also do not know which decoder was in the engine that had the issues with the lights on in an even speed step and off on an odd, but I have read in other forums that if the decoder is set to 14 speed steps and the command station is sending out 28 or 128 speed steps, that this problem can occur. Just something to look into to try and remedy the problem.

Thanks for the tip, Ill relay that to the club.

[knewsom]

JPM335,

I have never had any of the problems that you have experienced with the PA in the 16 months that I have been running mine. Maybe the two that your club got were built on a Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend. [:)]

I also do not know which decoder was in the engine that had the issues with the lights on in an even speed step and off on an odd, but I have read in other forums that if the decoder is set to 14 speed steps and the command station is sending out 28 or 128 speed steps, that this problem can occur. Just something to look into to try and remedy the problem.

[Anonymous]

Notice: I am not trying to start a flame war about prodigy, just giving my personal experience.

We have the PA hooked up to the modules. I will agree that it is easy to use... when it works correctly (which isnt very often). We have had lots of problems with the original one, and the replacement we got from MRC. But I will only list the difficulties we had while displaying in the bush library last month. First of all, no matter what locomotive or consist is running, the PA does some wierd stuff with lights. When the speed is on an even number speed step, headlight is on. Odd number speed step, headlight turns off. Hmmm. I have an amtrak engine with full prototypical lighting (ie: headlights, flashing ditch lights, backup light, red lights on nose while in reverse etc.) While running it, it would usually perform normally. Sometimes though, one ditch light would be on steady, the other off, and the red nose lights on while moving forward. Later we were running all sound equipped engines. We put a 6th engine up on the layout, and as soon as it started moving every engine on the layout started blasting the horn. We couldnt turn the horns off so we had to shut down the layout and restart. That had never happened before, it was like the PA got confused and gave up[xx(]. Also, the PA has trouble with TCS MC series decoders. Mine work fine at home on digitrax, but on PA they run all herky-jerky and sometimes just take off out of control. I thought it might be dirty track, so we cleaned the whole layout but the problem persisted. Also, we have to used decoder-based consists. Every time we try to run a command station consist, the consist runs fine, but nothing else will respond.

Now, before there is a big arguement Im not bashing anybody who has the PA. If you like it and it works well for you, thats great[:D]. These are just my experiences and something to consider if you are in the market for a DCC system.

[knewsom]

Sorry it took so long, but here is my ease of use assessment of the MRC Prodigy Advance.

REVIEW: MRC Prodigy Advance
The main reason that I decided to go with the MRC PA was the handheld. I found it very intuitive for running trains. Pictured below is an Prodigy Advance Handheld:



Setting up a consist
The PA allows both Advance Consisting and Universal (old-style consisting), but the default is Advanced Consisting. Both of them are set up similarly so I will put any differences for universal consisting after I detail how to set up an advanced consist.

Looking at the handheld there is a button for Consist. Press the consist button until the LCD displays "Cons SET", then hit the enter key. The LCD will display "Cons #", so enter the consist address ( Short address [1-127]) that you want to create and hit enter. The LCD will display "Add Loco". Enter the address of the loco that you want to add and if you want to have the loco run in reverse hit the direction key, then hit enter. The "Add Loco" message will appear in the LCD. Repeat the above steps for all of the locos that you want to add to the advanced consist. To stop adding locos to the consist, do not enter an address and just hit enter at the "Add Loco" prompt.
[Universal Consist]
Press the consist button until the LCD displays "Old SET", then hit the enter key. The LCD will display "LEAd Loc", so enter the address of the Lead loco that you want to create, press the direction key if you want to reverse it and hit enter. The LCD will display "Add Loco". Enter the address of the loco that you want to add and if you want to have the loco run in reverse hit the direction key, then hit enter. The "Add Loco" message will appear in the LCD. You can add up to 4 locos (or advanced consists) to a universal consist. To stop adding locos to the consist, do not enter an address and just hit enter at the "Add Loco" prompt.

Running a consist
To run an advanced consist, hit the loco key and make sure "Loco" appears in the LCD. Then enter the short address that you assigned to the advanced consist. Then turn the throttle to control the consist. Accessory functions are controlled by the consist # or by the individual addresses of the locomotives.
[Universal Consist]
Press the Consist button and then the Loco button. "Cons" will appear on the LCD display. Enter the address of the lead loco and hit enter. The throttle will control the speed and the accessories for each loco will be controlled by their individual addresses.

Clearing a consist
To clear an advanced consist, press the Consist key until the "Cons cLr" shows in the LCD then press enter. "Cons #" will appear in the LCD. Enter the short address of the advanced consist that you want to clear and hit enter. All locomotives will now respond to their individual addresses.
[Universal Consist]
Press the Consist button until "Cons oLd cLr" is in the LCD then hit enter. Each loco will now be controlled by their individual addresses.

Ease of use
MRC made it very easy to set up consists, by just following the prompts on the LCD. If you need help, all you have to do is flip the handheld over to see the instructions (the manual is not really necessary). One of the things that I do not like about it, is that you can not just remove one loco from an advanced consist. You have to clear the whole consist and then create the consist again. The PA also only allows one universal consist per command station (not per cab). That is limiting if there is more than one operator that wants to use a universal consist. It would also be nice if you could access a universal consist by any of the locos in it.

Overall rating for the MRC PA with respect to consisting: B+

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPM335

Now, this is just opinion of course (every review-oriented post is), but I happen to like the object-action operation of digitrax.

So, JPM, if you like object - action, what would you grade the Digitrax Zephyr?

I would give it a B-. My big gripe is the lack of an LCD screen. You have to be confident that you kind of know what to do since there is no friendly little screen to tell you you are OK[:D]. Im happy with my zephyr though. Hopefully a DT400 for Xmas.

[gregmc]

Hey Up-James2,

I use the LH90 as my primary engineer cab and have pretty much studied all its ins and outs. As I said in my earlier post, it is not as complicated as it looks. I feel that most of the problem is the lack of labeling on the unit. I photoshoped a picture of my LH90 and relettered the buttons to reflect their functions. When you think about this throttle analytically, there are not that many possibilities as there simply aren't enough keys. Take a look at my revised throttle.



Here is the link for a larger picture.

http://webpages.charter.net/g_mccartney/lh90.jpg


Greg McCartney

[gregmc]

Hey tpatrick,
I feel your pain concerning your NCE radio experience. My club ones one and a local private operating layout I attend also uses the system, and between the two I have pretty much experienced every thing you have mention above. The lack of a back space key on the procab is really annoying. Combine that with the fact that one time you push a button and nothing happens and the next time you press it and you get three of that digit you are ready to pull you hair out. I have found that doing much more than running a train with the wireless throttle is a recipe for disaster. Now I don't know if the new radio repeaters will help this function or not. Seeing as how my club just purchased our radio system last month, you would think we have the new base unit, but at our train show 4 weeks ago we still had the same problems. I would be interested in seeing if the repeaters will improve the overall operation.

Greg McCartney

[tstage]

bump

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpatrick

Brunton, thanks for the input, but my inadvertent shutoff was not due to inactivity. I was actively controlling two trains at one moment and in an instant the handset was off. This only happened once, but it is a part of larger pattern of erratic behavior that leaves me pretty unhappy.

Oh. That's a whole different ball of wax.

I've been running trains and not changed the speed (or rang the bell or blown the whistle) for five minutes and had my throttle shut off, but it never has done that other than with the auto-shutoff.

Do the problems disappear when running with the throttle wired into the command station?

With the problems you're having, it seems to me that NCE should just replace the entire system for you and see if the problem is solved that way.

In any case, I hope they haven't given up on helping you. I can understand your frustration in any case, though!

[tpatrick]

Brunton, thanks for the input, but my inadvertent shutoff was not due to inactivity. I was actively controlling two trains at one moment and in an instant the handset was off. This only happened once, but it is a part of larger pattern of erratic behavior that leaves me pretty unhappy.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpatrick


Example: I'm running two trains simultaneously, using the recall function to switch between locos. Works great until out of nowhere it recalls an engine I ran last week. Now I have a runaway train that has to be manually reselected to regain control. That brings up the next example: To control a loco you press "select loco," punch in the engine number digits and press "enter." Pretty easy except all too often it takes multiple tries to get it to accept a number. ...

Example: Was running two trains toward a crossing. One had to stop to make way for the other. ... But it isn't slowing. ...The handset shut itself off! ... I don't know why it quit.

Last example: Last night I ran an engine onto a manual turntable. I gently and carefully laid the handset aside and turned the engine. I picked up the controller carefully and meant to move the engine off the turntable. For some God-only-knows reason the handset was now in program mode. ...I was very careful not to inadvertently touch any wrong buttons.

NCE has been supportive. They took back the entire system and repaired it once. I am on my second handset.

Wow!

I've never had any of the sort of problems you describe, except for the second example - the handset shutting itself off. This has happened to me. But if you take the time to read the NCE wireless supplement, you'll find that the throttle is designed to shut itself off after five minutes of inactivity. This is probably In order to keep the batteries from running down if you set the throttle down and walk off without turning it off. It can be adjusted to automatically shutoff from one to nine minutes, and you can also set it to never shut off. I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer here, but ease of use claims aside, it does pay to read the manual, particularly when it comes to operating in wireless mode, and also when the system does something you didn't expect.

The only problems I've had with recalling a loco are mine - Sometimes I forget which loco is which, and am not controlling the one I thought I was (three I have in the queue are BLI heavy Mikes - identical except for road number).

When I first got my NCE I had problems with losing settings every time I unplugged the system. NCE traced this to a bad reset chip and repaired the command station promptly, at no charge to me. Other than that, the system has performed flawlessly. I'm sorry to hear that you are having problems with yours - is NCE still working with you on it?

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up-james2

Joe

Clearly we have very different opinions about the LH90. I am not sure why. Perhaps we just operate differently or perhaps they have changed a lot since you last used the system.

But for me this system is ideal and I also very much appreciate both the warranty and the fact that they seem to promote the whole DCC concept by having their systems tested by the NMRA. A real first class act.

James
A happy DCC Set-90 user

Well, James, there you go. Everyone's experience is different. It's good to get a counter view, to be fair to Lenz.

For some reason, Lenz's system and decoders never seem to hit it off with me. I owned a Lenz system for 7 years, but slowly grew more and more dissatisfied with it. I also have more issues with their decoders than any others, and again can't really say why. Yet I use exclusively Lenz power boosters because they work so well for me, and I appreciate their low amperage (I subscribe to the notion of more low amp boosters and power districts instead of fewer large amperage boosters).

I had not purchased a Lenz decoder for a long time, so I elected to try out one of their gold decoders, to see if finally Lenz would come through for me. Well, for some reason, and no one knows why at Lenz, I can't program the Lenz gold decoder on my EasyDCC programming track. It just refuses to take programming commands no matter what I do. (For some odd reason, Lenz decoders always seem to be unreliable for me. Go figure.)

So I set the Lenz gold decoder aside, intending to eventually figure out why it won't work for me. In the meantime, I go back to buying my standard Digitrax decoders, since they have a reliable track record with me. They just work! Again, go figure.

That's why I post the details of each system in the reviews and hesitate to post a lot of very subjective anecdotal experiences (although I'm throwing caution to the wind somewhat in this post by sharing more personal anecdotes). If you don't want to take my opinion in any of my official review posts, then you can look at the details of the review and judge for yourself.

Reality is, especially for the big four systems ... NCE, Digitrax, EasyDCC, and Lenz ... we're often down to splitting hairs. They all work pretty well, and to a certain degree, it's the old Ford and Chevy argument. I say I've had lots of good luck with Fords and you tell me all the stories of how the Fords you owned ran like crap.

Wished it was more clean cut, but at times it's just not. Basically you won't go wrong with any one of the big four systems, if you are into getting a DCC system with growth potential, rich features, and good support.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpatrick

After 6 months or so with the NCE Pro R system, I have to agree with Joe's assessment of ease of use. At least it is designed for ease of use. In actual practice it will drive you nuts.

Example: Was running two trains toward a crossing. One had to stop to make way for the other. No problem. The through train is running fine and I am controlling the one which is to stop. Just roll the thumbwheel to slow to a smooth stop. But it isn't slowing. It isn't responding at all. The handset shut itself off! Two trains racing toward a collision and nothing to stop them. And before I could reach the master switch on my control panel the wreckage splattered about the layout.. I don't know why it quit. The batteries were strong. It wasn't far from the base station and the line of sight was clear. So I just don't know.

And I am very sorry I gave up Dynatrol for this. Dynatrol, although far less capable (no sound for example), is vastly more reliable and in many ways provides more realistic control. It's braking function is a real joy. But now I have DCC. Whoopee!

tp:

Sounds like you are experiencing some of the woes of NCE wireless. I too have experienced loss of control with wireless NCE.

I am hoping the latest version of the NCE wireless receiver fixes this odd behavior.

I have to hasten to add that I seldom lose control of a loco with EasyDCC wireless, and their wireless works as close to perfect as one could hope for. CVP (the makers of EasyDCC) make a wireless throttle that works with NCE (you have to also get a CVP receiver and connect it to your NCEcommand station).

So it appears the best of both worlds may be an NCE command station with a handheld for programming, and CVP wireless receiver and CVP wireless engineer cabs for most operators. Unless the latest NCE radio receivers and wireless throttles have corrected the occassional "losing a loco" and "erratic behavior" problem that crops up now and then with their older wireless system.

Some people who own NCE and use wireless get great performance. But more than a few people, like yourself, have told me of odd behavior with NCE wireless. And I myself have experienced the wireless NCE odd behavior on other layouts I have visited as a guest operator.

Really makes me appreciate my very reliable EasyDCC wireless from CVP. I've had the system going on 6 years now and I can count the times we've had erratic wireless throttle behavior on one hand ... and I've always tracked it down to operator error (fat fingering some key combination on the throttle) or low batteries.

Ah, the joys of DCC ... nothing's perfect, is it?

[tstage]

Well, since Joe encouraged others to share their experiences with other various systems, I'm going to pipe in with the Bachmann E-Z Command system. And, since we have confined the current discussion to setting up a consist, that is what I'll concentrate on. The following information is based on approximately 9 months of experince using the Bachmann.

REVIEW: Bachmann E-Z Command DCC System
With the simplicity of the Bachmann, setting up a consist is fairly easy, but not necessarily intuitive. Pictured below is an E-Z Command for clarification purposes:



Setting up a consist
As stated above, in and of itself, setting up a consist with the Bachmann E-Z Command system is not terribly difficult. But to try and figure it out without the manual, you would be hard pressed to accomplish it quickly.

It's easy from the stand point that, if you can program an address, you can program a consist. However, there isn't anything intuitive about the Bachmann that makes the consisting process jump out at you.

Programming or addressing
In order to assign an address other than 03 to your locomotive, you must go through the following process:

1. Activate the locomotive by running it a short distance on address 3
2. Press 3 AND the STOP button simultaneously and release. (Power LED will flash quickly.)
3. Choose another address and press the cooresponding button. (Locomotive will move slightly and the LED will flash more slowly to indicate that programming was successful.)
4. Press the STOP button again to exit programming mode.

The E-Z Command does NOT have any sort of display to either verify commands or prompt steps so Bachmann uses flashing LEDs to indicate that.

Programming a consist
To program a consist, place two or more locomotives on the same track and assign the locomotives to the same address using the above steps. To have one locomotive facing opposite the other locomotives in a consist, the odd locomotive(s) must be programmed separately in the following manner in order to orient it so that it runs in the same direction as the consist:

1. Choose and press address button (designated for the locomotive consist) and the STOP button simultaneously and release. (Power LED will flash quickly.)
2. Press the direction button you want to assign as "forward"
3. Press the locomotive address button again
4. Press the STOP button to exit programming mode.

Ease of use
The process of consisting with the Bachmann E-Z Command, once learned, is actually quite easy and quick. But, as stated already - without the manual - figuring out how to consist locomotives with the Bachmann E-Z Command would prove to be - literally and figuratively - a trying experience.

Also, since CVs can NOT be adjusted with the Bachmann E-Z Command system, unlike locomotives/manufacturers may still run into similar problems that others face running consists using DC - i.e. dissimilar speeds.

Overall rating for the Bachmann E-Z Command with respect to consisting: C-

Hope that's helpful...

Tom

P.S. Because of the limitations of the Bachmann, and the great help this thread has been (Thanks, Joe! [:D]), I have already reserved the soon-to-be-release NCE PowerCab from Empire Northern for my next DCC system. The 1.7 amps will serve my present needs quite well and is upgradable - whenever I eventually get around to needing to do that.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TommyToot

My throttle is the DT400 which is nothing like the Zepher. My consisting so far is to assign each loco to one of the the two cabs and operate both cabs as one train. Very crude but I'm running a "consist" of two locos.

All you have to do from there is press the MU button followed by the Y+.. Your locos will be MU'd on the active throttle and you can keep adding them To the consist by repeating the procedure.. To break one out of the consist, select the loco on the non-consisted throttle, press the MU button followed by the N-.. Do it once and you'll know it for life. I don't understand what's so difficult about it.. I've never used the Zephyr though.. Already had the Chief by the time the Zephyr was released.

Jeff

[Anonymous]

Joe

I am real confused. I have been lurking for a long time and have always enjoyed your posts. But your review of the Lenz systems left me confused. Greg helped out a lot but in my opinion but perhaps this thread could benefit from someone that actually uses the LH-90 for their throttle.

I purchased a Set-90 about 8 months ago and after reading your review I have to ask you as to if we are both using the same system because mine works much differently for me than what you post. I especially like the way consisting is handled and rate the LH90 as a B+. I tried to operate as many systems as possible before going with the Lenz and the Set 90 was the only system that my son and I could use without reading the manual each time. I also did not want a console but prefer walk around throttles.

QUOTE:
Lenz considers decoder consists to be the *only* kind of consist you can make with their Set 02 system.

Perhaps this is the way the Set-02 works. I do not know as I have never used one. But in the Set-90 the command station is fully aware of the consist.

With most systems you start with the consist and add locomotives. To me this is not very prototypical and is confusing because you think of the consist and not the locomotive you are operating.

The way it works for me is I select a locomotive and move it to the place where I want to build the consist. I then simply tell the system that the locomotive I am operating should be added to the consist. Next I get my next locomotive and move it to the consist location and add it to the consist.

What I like best is that with I can operate the consist from any locomotive address. I climb up into the cab and begin operation. With a shift A I can go to any of the other locomotives in the consist. You never need to even remember the consist number from session to session because you simply operate the train from any of the locomotive addresses which are on the side of the locomotive's cab. This provides seems to merge the advantages of both types of consisting.

The 8 locomotive stack within the LH90 is also very useful since a single key is used to scroll through the 8 stack positions.

One other neat feature you missed is the 3 position direction switch. The center position is a slow brake. When switching I leave the knob in a mid speed position and use the direction switch as a brake and do all operations just using the switch.

QUOTE:
The Lenz user interface *requires* keeping a manual handy (or making up a cheat sheet for yourself) since very few of the keystrokes needed to do anything are intuitive.

I purchased a second LH90 for my son because it is so easy to use. He is only 6 but has no problem operating and even builds consists when needed. And I do not believe he has ever read any part of the manual. (not real good at reading such things yet) The only time I use the manual is for programming CVs in decoders which I do not do very often.

Clearly we have very different opinions about the LH90. I am not sure why. Perhaps we just operate differently or perhaps they have changed a lot since you last used the system.

But for me this system is ideal and I also very much appreciate both the warranty and the fact that they seem to promote the whole DCC concept by having their systems tested by the NMRA. A real first class act.

---------

James
A happy DCC Set-90 user

[tpatrick]

After 6 months or so with the NCE Pro R system, I have to agree with Joe's assessment of ease of use. At least it is designed for ease of use. In actual practice it will drive you nuts.

Example: I'm running two trains simultaneously, using the recall function to switch between locos. Works great until out of nowhere it recalls an engine I ran last week. Now I have a runaway train that has to be manually reselected to regain control. That brings up the next example: To control a loco you press "select loco," punch in the engine number digits and press "enter." Pretty easy except all too often it takes multiple tries to get it to accept a number. Four to six keystrokes will usually get you a cursor and several more keys will finally enter a number. But be careful because the next digit will often double enter and then you have to work your way back to the beginning. There is no "back" key for miscues. Meanwhile the runaway train is on the floor unless you use the emergency stop.

Example: Was running two trains toward a crossing. One had to stop to make way for the other. No problem. The through train is running fine and I am controlling the one which is to stop. Just roll the thumbwheel to slow to a smooth stop. But it isn't slowing. It isn't responding at all. The handset shut itself off! Two trains racing toward a collision and nothing to stop them. And before I could reach the master switch on my control panel the wreckage splattered about the layout.. I don't know why it quit. The batteries were strong. It wasn't far from the base station and the line of sight was clear. So I just don't know.

Last example: Last night I ran an engine onto a manual turntable. I gently and carefully laid the handset aside and turned the engine. I picked up the controller carefully and meant to move the engine off the turntable. For some God-only-knows reason the handset was now in program mode. And because I know what a screwed up piece of junk it is, I was very careful not to inadvertently touch any wrong buttons.

NCE has been supportive. They took back the entire system and repaired it once. I am on my second handset. The first one was destroyed in a moment of angry frustration. The second one tries my patience every time I use it. But I have a $600 investment. And I am very sorry I gave up Dynatrol for this. Dynatrol, although far less capable (no sound for example), is vastly more reliable and in many ways provides more realistic control. It's braking function is a real joy. But now I have DCC. Whoopee!

[Anonymous]

Great work Joe. Most helpful even though I have purchased a Digitrax Empire Builder based on the advise of a LHS. I wanted DCC and jumped in without basic evaluation. I am now going to upgrade the command station / booster to the "Chief" and use the existing commamd station as a booster.
Your consisting description of the Zepher was a good example of my difficulty with need to read manuals instead of running trains. My throttle is the DT400 which is nothing like the Zepher. My consisting so far is to assign each loco to one of the the two cabs and operate both cabs as one train. Very crude but I'm running a "consist" of two locos.
Thanks again for all your expertise. You are a valuable resource for hundreds of us.
Now, back to the manuals!!!

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPM335

Now, this is just opinion of course (every review-oriented post is), but I happen to like the object-action operation of digitrax.

Yep, one man's meat is another man's poison, as they say.

That's why I wanted to offer enough details in my review that you could decide for yourself and not just take my word for it. Disagreeing is fine, and in fact it would be a pretty boring world if we all agreed on everything ... or to take a cynical viewpoint -- if we both agreed on everything, then one of us would be unnecessary. [swg]

So, JPM, if you like object - action, what would you grade the Digitrax Zephyr?

[Anonymous]

Now, this is just opinion of course (every review-oriented post is), but I happen to like the object-action operation of digitrax. I have the system, read the manual once to learn how to consist and havent needed any refresher since then. To me, the object-action format makes sense. Its like saying, "Take loco A and MU with loco B." Not that action-object is bad (make consist, add loco A and loco B) but the object-action format seems more like a persons thought process. It would be better if the zephyr had an LCD screen to guide you through each step though.

[gregmc]

I forgot about that. Around here, the two railroads I operate on we usually send a second crew for the second units, usually helpers. Neither railroad requires a push pull operation like you describe. Nesting consists is one area that Lenz could stand some improvement in there operating software. Right now you can't nest two consists together using the Double header feature which would be a great way of going about it.
One could do what you said with NCE but the engineer would need to be using a Procab if the need would arise to break it up.

Greg McCartney

[jfugate]

Greg:

Great clarifications on Lenz, thanks for spelling things out in your post.

As to why someone would want to use a command-station (or double-head consist to use Lenz terminology), I can think of at least two reasons ...

1. Compatibility with older decoders.
Just because the latest crop of decoders will all do decoder-based consisting using CV19 doesn't mean there won't be older decoders out there for years to come. Forcing people to upgrade in order to consist their locos is heavy-handed and not customer-friendly.

2. Allows nesting consists, which opens up lots of flexibility
Having rich command-station consisting using the loco number as the consist address (which is possible with both EasyDCC and the Digitrax Zephyr) allows nesting consists. This makes it possible to create all kinds of useful consists, like the double-ended diesel consists I commonly use on my HO Siskiyou Line.

With a double-ended consist, you dial up the loco address on one end or the other, and that becomes the front of the consist. Forward on the throttle moves the lashup in the forward direction with reference to the addressed "front" locomotive. Press the function keys and the lights operate on the front loco, and the sound (horn, bell) operate as expected.

Dial up the other end, and now that's the front. Forward now operates the lashup correctly with reference to the new front end loco. The light function keys operate the headlights on the referenced front loco, and the sound functions all operate as expected. Very handy!

And it's all possible with nested consists (a command station consist layered over the top of a decoder consist), if the system allows for feature-rich command-station consisting that passes function key presses to consist members and so on.

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EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade.

My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much.

Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system. [swg]

[jfugate]

Crazy:

Plan to review Zimo next ... but since I've never used it, I have to analyze the manual for a few days first. The original handheld manual I'm referencing is in German I believe, and the engli***ranslation is still being done. I finagled a recent pre-release engli***ranslation, and am reading that.

So the review will be coming this week I hope.

[CrazyDiamond]

Joe, will you cover Zimo in here, or perhaps do a Zimo versus Digitrax someday in a new thread?

[gregmc]

Joe just to correct some inacuraccies in your Lenz review. You have confused the Set02 with the Set90. The Set02 used the LH200 which is similar in appearance to the LH90 you reviewed in your article. The LH200 contained the command station for the Set02 and has been discontinued. The new Set90 has the same command station, the LZV100, as the Set100, which replaced the Set01/4.

I agree the LH90 could be a bit more user friendly. Definitely not a throttle for someone who doesn't like to read manuals. But it is not as complicated as it appears either. A few practice runs with it and can become quite proficient with it. I would say I can select an address as fast or faster as my friends can with their NCE Cab04s, but part of that may be they generally have to preform the select loco proceedure at least twice because the buttons don't make connections. Overall I give the throttle a C for selecting locos and building consists. As for operation once you get a loco or consist selected, I give it an A.

One other item, the LH90 is an engineers throttle and priced accordingly. Generally I see them being sold on the internet for some where around $70-$80. Most engineers throttles from other systems cannot preform any tasks other than running trains. So the LH90 can be a very powerful throttle once you have learned how to use it.


A little on Lenz consisting. First off it is true the LH90 throttle won't build an "old style" as NCE states it. Not really sure why you would want to anymore with every decoder sold on the market supporting CV19 advanced consisting. If your just now getting into DCC, then it is likely you will never come across a decoder that doesn't support advanced consisting. But if you feel you need it then it can be provided by the LH100 throttle but as Joe pointed out, it is limited to two locomotives per old style consist. The number of old style consists does not appear to have a limit other than a max of 256 locos total on the system. More on that later.

Advanced consisting can be performed by both throttles offered by Lenz. The LH100 is easier to use than the LH90 as pointed out by Joe. Lenz has taken an interesting approach to how advanced consists are handled. Remember the 256 locomotive limit. Well the reason for that is the command station stores info on all thoses locos such as consist and function status. So when a consist is built, the command station remembers which locos belong to which consists and automatically sends commands to the consist address. This allows you to operate your consist from any locomotive address in the consist. NCE has sort of incorporated this feature but limits it to the lead and trailing locos. MRC PA ignored this feature all together meaning you can only run a consist from the consist address.

Lenz has also taken an interesting approach to adding or deleting locos from a consist. Lenz handles this on an individual locomotive basis, meaning you select the loco then select the add or delete feature.


Overall I feel DCC systems have two important parts, there throttles and there operating software. Lenz has the operation software aspect down pat but there throttles leave something to be desired for the novice operator.

To me the perfect DCC system would include the wireless MRC PA throttle on the Lenz command station platform. The combination would blow everything else out of the water, but that's just my opinion.

Greg McCartney
Lenz Set100 and NCE Powerhouse Pro User for +3 years