As I have mentioned on this thread, I just purchased a new NCE wireless system. Since we've been talking about reliability on the NCE wireless system ... my first NCE RPT1 repeater that I ordered was defective and did not work. I received it last week, plugged it in, and deader than a doornail -- in fact it brought the whole system down! I just wanted to compliment Bruce Petrarca and Litchfield Station for saving my bacon at the last minute with a desperate request for a replacement RPT1. They shot one off to me on Tuesday and it showed up today, Thursday!I plugged in the replacement and voila! Everything works just great and I'm getting an excellent strong signal throughout the layout room aisles!
That's none too soon, since my first op session with the new NCE system is in two days. I'll be posting a report of how the op session goes with the new system, if you are interested. If you'd like to know more details of the move to NCE from EasyDCC, I cover it more (with photos) in this thread on my personal web site.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
No manufacturer is perfect. Systems and parts can fail for a variety of reasons. I'd rather have a part fail outright rather than have to deal with some intermittent problem that would be difficult to diagnose. I would be curious to hear what the eventual problem was.
Yep, Bruce is one good guy and high on my list as far as online vendors are concerned! He's always been polite and very helpful with my inquiries.
Joe, I look forward to hearing how your ops session goes tomorrow.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom:
I agree, Bruce is a good guy. I first met Bruce at the 2004 National Convention and he had lots of great comments/questions in my DCC clinic I gave.
As to the NCE wireless system, I'm eager to see how it performs. So far, other than the dead-on-arrival wireless repeater, the system has performed quite well. The wireless operation is just a little more finicky than my previous EasyDCC wireless system, but then NCE is a full duplex system where the radio communication is two-way. Since the FCC sets power limits on this type of wireless devices, a two-way wireless system has to divide the power between transmit and receive so the total transmission power limit is not exceeded.
This makes NCE's wireless power about half that of EasyDCC, and the laws of physics being what they are, the NCE wireless is more touchy -- but so far I've been quite pleased with the system. The wireless operation is quite acceptable when it's just me operating. Since the human body absorbs radio signals quite well, it will be interesting to see how reliable NCE's wireless is once the layout room is full of people.
I'll be posting my conclusions here on this thread, and I will be posting a detailed report, with photos, on my personal web site.
I asked once before about multiple DCC throttles but will ask again. I hope this makes sense.
One thing that is NOT good about my little DCC Bachmann is when you go from one throttle to the next, you frequently have problems. You can just touch the "new" throttle and the train goes in REVERSE! or slows WAY down! or STOPS! or speeds way UP!
There is a reason for this and it involves how throttles handoff to each other. Lets say you are running engine 3 on throttle A with the direction control right active and 1/2 throttle.
Now you go to throttle B. It is set to engine 3 but the direction control left active and FULL throttle. All is well until you touch the throttle setting and this activates throttle B and the engine goes into FULL reverse.
There is a way around this. And some OTHER throttles do it differently (although I havent used them and dont know for sure). The difference could be called ABSOLUTE throttle setting vs RELATIVE throttle setting.
Which mfgs throttles do what on handoff, wireless or otherwise?
Other throttle problems/characteristics.
Pilot:
Any throttles that use an encoder rather than a potentiometer will behave more appropriately when changing loco assignments between throttles. NCE and Digitrax have encoder throttles.
However, when changing loco assignments on-the-fly between throttles that use ordinary pots for speed control, it's easy enough to match the throttle setting and direction *first* before making the change. It only takes a few seconds to think ahead like this.
Or like we do on the Siskiyou Line ... if we ever needed to change throttles during a session (rarely done, and when done it was usually to solve a bad throttle issue), we set the new throttle to stop and then acquire the loco. Trying to change throttles in-flight is tricky and just asking to throw things on the ground. Real prototype railroaders tend to not get too crazy or you can end up hurting people or losing your job.
Others who have regular operating sessions with their DCC systems may care to comment on how often they do this kind of in-flight throttle switching during an op session. I know we seldom (if ever) do on my HO Siskiyou Line.
Doug,
If I interpret your statements and inquiry correctly, this is where a throttle with a potentiometer (i.e. a knob with fixed limits) is a disadvantage over a throttle with an encoder (either a wheel or knob w/o fixed limits). As you mentioned, with the Bachmann you have the former and, therefore, are subjected to a jerky transition between addresses when operating more than one locomotive at a time.
I can't really speak for the other systems but NCE throttles come with the encoder wheel, as well as gross and fine step buttons, and keeps track of each locomotive's setting stored in it. It must be noted, however, that the NCE Powerhouse Pro comes with a 6-locomotive recall stack. The NCE Power Cab - identical to the Power Pro throttle outwardly but slightly different internally - only has a 2-locomotive recall stack*.
*By recall stack, I mean the number of locomotives that you can toggle between (by pushing the RECALL button) while operating your throttle. Other DCC systems may have more or less recall stack limits.
Now, you can operate more than 2 locomotives with the Power Cab (or 6 locomotives with the Powerhouse Pro). However, if you should desire to operate a third locomotive simultaneously with the Power Cab, because of the 2-locomotive stack limit, the third locomotive will "inherit" the settings of the last locomotive you were controlling. This can make for either sudden lunges or decelerations to the 3rd locomotive - depending on whether that locomotive was standing idle or in motion when you acquired it.
Since I don't plan on operating more than 2 locomotives at a given time with any one throttle, this isn't really an issue for me. For me, running more than 2 locomotives simultaneously is just asking for trouble.
Hi,
I picked up the equivalent of the Digitrax Super Empire Builder about six years ago. After testing it with some loops of track, it and my railroad stuff got packed away until recently. Pulling it out now, I am a little frustrated by its limitations (no routing, no feedback) but at the time it was the only one to offer an affordable PC interface which I needed for a project. As a set its a strange mix of advanced features and missing functionality and I am not sure why its still offered for sale. The niche it was designed to fill no longer exists in my opinion, and it only serves to frustrate.
Anyway, the key feature that first attracted me to the Digitrax system was the DT400 throttle. Having two throttles on one controller seemed like a handy thing for a guy who would be a solo operator most of the time. Now as I design my next layout I am also expecting that I would want to be able to run two trains without having to switch addresses. Setting up a meet, for instance, between a passenger train and the local I will be playing w.. ooops.. I mean.. operating.. or trying to speed match two locos.
Another thing I found appealing was that the loconet specification was very much like the ethernet stuff I was working with in a network lab at the time and gave me a certain comfort factor. It intuitively made sense to me on hardware level. I don't suppose that would be much of a factor for most folks.
Anyway, as I sit here trying to decide whether to ebay my system or make do, I am wondering how other folks felt about the usefulness of having two throttles on one controller, something that seems unique to Digitrax.
Regards,
Chris
I've loved the performance of my DC walk-around throttles (kit-built TAT-Vs and tethered TAT-IVs), set up in a progressive-cab system. At the time that I decided to stick with analog control (1994), DCC motor control was WAY below what my analog throttles delivered, and the cost of equipping my fleet with encoders looked prohibitive. So I designed around / lived with the inconveniences of cab control. The one weakness of my walk-arounds is that the key IC chip periodically self-destructed (a flaw in the basic design). Finally, that chip is no longer available - coinciding with incipient plans to more than double the layout size. After considerable investigation during the past three months, I've found few choices in analog walk-around control, and that they would be nearly as expensive in the short run as moving to DCC (in the longer run, the cost of installing the decoders will drive the total cost well above investment in analog, but decoders are much cheaper than in 1994 and continue to fall in price). So I've decided to at least experiment with DCC.
I'm leaning toward starting with the NCE Power Cab system. There are still some issues that I don't understand:
1. It seems that most folks have a throttle for every active train, and rarely use a single throttle to control more than one train. Is this just preference, or are there problems associated with using a single throttle to toggle between a couple of trains? The NCE web site claims that when RECALling another locomotive, the system "remembers" the speed and other characteristics of the recalled locomotive (or consist), but some posts here indicate that it is more wish than reality.
2. My intention would be to have only one or two of the fully-featured throttles, and probably two or three of the more basic "engineer" or intermediate throttles. Is this approach feasible? (If not, then the total cost increases so dramatically as to make me again question moving to DCC.) Can one adjust momentum rates from the NCE "engineer" throttles?
3. Specifically for the Power Cab, I want to also get an NCE intermediate throttle because even for my experimenting, I MUST have walk-around capability. I'm still confused about how to hand off loco control from the Power Cab to the intermediate throttle.
4. Despite helpful replies to an earlier post, I'm still confused about power districts. On a conservative basis of .5 amps / active loco, and allowing for double-heading (almost universal on my pike), the maximum power requirement for the whole layout is right at 5 amps. If I get a three-amp booster, can I restrict it to a section of the layout, or do I have to put 8 amps through the whole thing? On a similar note, can I continue to use the Power Cab for, say, the eastern terminus section, and (in the future) purchase a Pro Cab for the rest of the layout if the two sections are electrically isolated?
5. Last but not least, one of the attractions for me of the NCE system is the stated ability to use DIN plugs (I HATE the phone-style plugs and for other stuff where they are plugged / unplugged much less frequently, have found them to become unreliable over time). Presumably there is nothing to stop me from installing my own DIN plugs at a cost of about 70 cents apiece, versus the NCE pre-wired ones at $10 (MSRP) apiece? And is the NCE "coilcord DIN" item 524-210 an adaptor plug that goes from the throttle to the DIN female?
Any answers or advice will be much appreciated. I realize that a lot of this would be answered if I could try this stuff out on someone else's layout, but unfortunately that is not an option.
Lenz throttles pick up recalled or dialed in loco speeds exactly as they are presently running.
The LH100 has push button speed control and matches speed and direction precisely. I don't know if you call push button speed control an encoder but it acts the same way.
The neat thing about their new LH90, which is a potentiometer, is that you can dial in the exact speed of another loco by means of flashing lights that guide you to rotate your speed knob to the exact speed of the new loco. This is a huge improvement for a potentiometer. And, you can match direction, again with a flashing light.
The LH100 has a huge recall stack but I never use it. It's quick and easy to just punch in the new loco number.
The LH90 has an 8 loco stack that you can rotate through very quickly, selecting any of the 8 locos and matching speed and direction precisely.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
There are two throttle switching scenarios. One is same loco but different throttles. The other is same throttle but different loco.
On my small layout, with as many as 8 locos(trains) available, I have two throttles (not wireless). The layout is big enough that as I follow the train I switch throttles (due to NOT being wireless) as I follow the train around. The throttle I come to has to aquire the loco. If I run two locos, I usually put one loco on each throttle and just leave it. Following the train around is necessary because I need to check/throw turnouts. So I do aquire new locos on my throttles with trains running. Due to having the potentiometer instead of encoder type throttle I have to really watch what I am doing. (Probably have to really watch what I'm doing with the other type throttle as well). I'm still not clear on why an encoder is better at switching throttles/locos.
I IMAGINE a throttle that AQUIRES the settings of the loco as soon as you push the new loco button. Now it cant actually MOVE the knob, but the knob is RELATIVE and INFINITE (no stops), so wherever the knob is set is the current value of the throttle setting. Moving it up or down from there changes it. That is what I mean by RELATIVE vs FIXED. Since the current loco settings are inherited by the throttle, there is no change in the settings and the knobs work fine slowing it down a little if you turn it counterclockwise and speeding it up if you turn it clockwise.
Now I said I IMAGINE such a throttle. I dont know if ANY of the throttles work this way. I also havent thought it through enough to know if this creates some other problem.
Comments?
pilot wrote: Now I said I IMAGINE such a throttle. I dont know if ANY of the throttles work this way. I also havent thought it through enough to know if this creates some other problem. Comments?
The Lenz throttles work this way. Of course, with Lenz, and most other mfgs., you locate "plug-in" stations around your layout so you can take your throttle with you to follow your train. But, if you do want to run the same loco with another throttle, with Lenz the loco number flashes when you pick up the 2nd throttle and you just push a key and then you have control with no change in speed or direction.
Also, with Lenz, they have a cordless phone throttle which gives you a very inexpensive wireless throttle to follow your trains with. Of course most mfgs. also offer radio throttles.
A potentiometer is a knob with a notch marked on it and it has a definite start and stop on it. An encoder knob has no notch marked on it and it just rotates endlessly with no start and stop.
What the throttles with an encoder do is when you acquire a loco with them, wherever the encoder is turned to adapts and magically becomes the current speed setting of the newly acquired loco, and the loco does not change speed or direction -- the throttle adapted to its settings.
Since the encoder has no marks on it and rotates endlessly with no start or stop, your only reference is the current loco you're using. Turn the encoder down and the loco slows down. Turn the encoder up and the loco speeds up. With an encoder, it can be difficult to tell when you are at top speed or totally stopped, since there's no "top" or "bottom" to an encoder knob. It just keeps turning endlessly.
The potentiometer, however, has a mark on it and it only rotates most of one revolution. It has a definite bottom on it, which means the loco is stopped, and a definite top on it, which means the loco is at top speed. When acquiring a different loco, the acquired loco gets a new speed setting based on position of the potentiometer knob, regardless of how fast or slow the loco was moving before.
With NCE and an encoder throttle, you can also set it in what is known as "yard mode", where turning past "stopped" on the encoder knob makes the loco start going the other direction. This works great for yard switching, since you can control your yard switcher completely with just the encoder throttle knob. No need for a direction switch.
I find with a road loco, however, I prefer the potentiometer knob with a definite top and bottom. With the encoder knob set in yard mode on a road engine, you may go for a minute or two and not touch the throttle knob. With the encoder in yard mode, turning the knob either direction can make the loco go faster, depending on if you are going forward or reverse. I find I can forget which direction is faster on the encoder with a road engine, since I don't change speed that often compared to a yard switcher. If I'm running a helper engine, accidentally going faster when I meant to go slower can be disasterous -- I can throw half the train on the ground because I meant to go slower instead of faster. Pots are best for road engines, but the encoder on yard mode is great for yard switching.
Using your terminology, a potentiometer is FIXED, and an encoder is RELATIVE.
Very interesting. And Joe, just watched your DVD’s... WoW. Got the whole set. Very cool.
I've got the Digitrax Set-Up and am I hearing correctly that they do not have a wireless radio controller for two way communication?
Loco wrote:Very interesting. And Joe, just watched your DVD’s... WoW. Got the whole set. Very cool. I've got the Digitrax Set-Up and am I hearing correctly that they do not have a wireless radio controller for two way communication?
Loco:
I believe the only two-way duplex wireless system is NCE. All other wireless systems are one-way from the throttle to the command station. Digitrax's transponding feature allows the potential for two-way throttle communication, but that's not really been exploited yet with any products I'm aware of.
Most of the time, one-way communication is fine for basic throttles. However, NCE's duplex wireless communication allows the *command station* (dogbone throttle) itself to be wireless. While not absolutely necessary, a full-featured wireless throttle can be handy if you want various locations around your layout to have an engine hostler position, for instance. This allows the engine hostler to do making and breaking of consists using programming on the main, for example.
NCE also allows you to lock certain commands for given throttle addresses, so if you don't want some engine hostler to accidentally reprogram all the lighing functions on your locos, for example, you can lock out those commands.
steamnut wrote:I'm leaning toward starting with the NCE Power Cab system. There are still some issues that I don't understand:1. It seems that most folks have a throttle for every active train, and rarely use a single throttle to control more than one train. Is this just preference, or are there problems associated with using a single throttle to toggle between a couple of trains? The NCE web site claims that when RECALling another locomotive, the system "remembers" the speed and other characteristics of the recalled locomotive (or consist), but some posts here indicate that it is more wish than reality.
As I said earlier, the NCE Powerhouse Pro has a 6-locomotive recall stack and the Power Cab a 2-locomotive recall stack. The NCE throttles will remember the specific settings for all the locomotives in the recall stack.
I guess it depends what exactly you want to do with each throttle. You'll have at least one full-featured with either the Powerhouse Pro or the Power Cab. If you just want basic train operation capabilities, the CAB-04p or -04e will suffice just fine. You can also purchase a ProCab throttle and use it with the Power Cab as an extra throttle.
The additional throttle is given an "address" in order to work with the Power Cab. Once the address is set up, as long as the Power Cab is on, the additional throttle can acquire any locomotive you have on the layout. Because the CAB-04p or -04e throttles don't have LCD displays, you'll need to enter the locomotive addresses manually. If you want real walk-aroud capability with the Power Cab, you'll need to get the Smart Booster.
4. Despite helpful replies to an earlier post, I'm still confused about power districts. On a conservative basis of .5 amps / active loco, and allowing for double-heading (almost universal on my pike), the maximum power requirement for the whole layout is right at 5 amps. If I get a three-amp booster, can I restrict it to a section of the layout, or do I have to put 8 amps through the whole thing? On a similar note, can I continue to use the Power Cab for, say, the eastern terminus section, and (in the future) purchase a Pro Cab for the rest of the layout if the two sections are electrically isolated?5. Last but not least, one of the attractions for me of the NCE system is the stated ability to use DIN plugs (I HATE the phone-style plugs and for other stuff where they are plugged / unplugged much less frequently, have found them to become unreliable over time). Presumably there is nothing to stop me from installing my own DIN plugs at a cost of about 70 cents apiece, versus the NCE pre-wired ones at $10 (MSRP) apiece? And is the NCE "coilcord DIN" item 524-210 an adaptor plug that goes from the throttle to the DIN female?
I actually buy mine from Empire Northern Models. Tim charges $2.25 for both connectors and $0.25(?) for each foot of cable. If it's not listed, just e-mail Tim directly. He completely revamped his web site so not everything is posted.
Steamnut, if you want to read more about the Power Cab, CAB-04p throttle, and Smart Booster, click on the web link at the bottom of my post. On the left side of the page click Reveiws. This will take you to the links where the reviews are.
Hope that helps a little...
You need a full duplex wireless throttle to do full featured programming with your wireless throttle. Also I have been told that if you need to aquire a new loco with the Digitrax wireless you have to plug back in. I used to say that if you shorted on a turnout and it went off, then you would have to plug the Digitrax wireless back in, but someone told me no that is not the case. I dont own one so I really dont know.
I'd still like to know what exactly you CAN'T do with the Digitrax and other simplex throttles that you can with duplex. BTW MRC has full duplex with their new (not sure its out yet), throttle as advertised anyway and they are making a big deal out of it being full duplex.
I need DC over DCC (the ability to run analog locos over my DCC system) and in wireless it looks like Digitrax is all there is. So I think the Zephyr will do. I can run 8 or so N scale locos on my Bachmann 1 amp, surely Digi will do the same or more. And Digi has wireless. And if Digi does come up with a duplex wireless it is likely to be compatible. Everything else is. Good for Digitrax, that is a BIG plus in my opinion.
Pilot,
An important question - Do you have any reverse loops on you current DC controlled layout? You state that you want to be able to run DC locos and DCC. If you have a reversing section that will cause you some problems. I've seen first hand what happens to a DC loco running on DCC that goes through a reverse loop with an auto-reverser. When it hits the gap it will instantly reverse direction at whatever speed you were running. Imagine running your train on the mainline and then suddenly throwing the direction switch. That's what happens. NOt good for your motors.
jktrains
pilot wrote: BTW MRC has full duplex with their new (not sure its out yet), throttle as advertised anyway and they are making a big deal out of it being full duplex.
BTW MRC has full duplex with their new (not sure its out yet), throttle as advertised anyway and they are making a big deal out of it being full duplex.
It's going to be intersting to see how the MRC radio really works. The system compares very favorably with NCE in other respects so if their radio is better it's going to be a big plus for them. They also plan to have a computer interface in the Spring of 08. One thing they don't yet have is a smaller, engineer's throttle (maybe they have announced it but I haven't heard of it). Many prefer to run their trains with an engineer's throttle rather then lug a larger unit around the layout.
As far as engineer's throttles go, I prefer NCE's over Digitrax's because I operate turnouts from my throttle and the Digitrax UT4's don't allow this. Maybe when they come out with a duplex system they will offer other improvements as well, including this in their smaller throttles? Of course, I think that the Lenz engineer's throttle tops them all as you can do everything with it, including programming and consisting.
For performance, the CVP radio throttles really are excellent, but a bit expensive. They operate turnouts but no progamming.
OK, I've asked this before and it wasn't really addressed. I've used a UT4 in the past and just looked at one on the Digitrax website. Could someone explain to me how Digitrax offering a duplex radio system will allowa UT4 to control turnouts as suggested by jwils1. UT4 has the following controls:
4 selector dial to select a loco number.
8 pushbuttons that control
F0 - F12Sel/ShiftDISP when used with the shift buttonSteal when used with the shift button
F0 - F12
Sel/Shift
DISP when used with the shift button
Steal when used with the shift button
The only button that doesn't have 2 functions assigned to it is F0.
Also, would this mean that to be able to use a UT4 to control turnouts you would need to purchase the duplex system?
JKTrains:
I'm not saying that duplex radio will allow the UT4 to control turnouts, but that with a major change in their product offering, maybe they will offer a completely redesigned UT4, which IMO is what they really need to do.
I have a reversing loop wired DCC (and DC but more on that later). With DCC wiring my DCC locos work perfectly. But when the DCC loco goes through any DC loco on the rest of the track reverses direction! So when you take a DCC loco through the loop, you have to stop all DC locos. There is a workaround for this but I havent done it.
To run my DC locos (running under DCC) through my reversing loop I just wired the reversing loop up the same way you wire it up for DC and run it the same way. Interestingly and DCC loco running on the main does NOT reverse when I reverse the main!
As for Lenz being able to run DC locos with their DCC system. You do seem to be correct. I see analog operation being listed as a feature on Lenz' website. That is NEW information for me. Previously I thought only Bachmann and Digitrax did analog locos. (I run small N scale steam).
It would be more correct to say you only have one THROTTLE for running DC locos under DCC. You can consist several DC locos, for instance, (I also have steep grades) and that is fairly common for me to do. You COULD run more than one DC loco seperately as well, but it is tricky.
Also, keep in mind, if you have DC locos, you can PARK it anywhere on the layout while running your DCC locos (and vice versa). So there's more advantage than you might think.
I'd love to have all my DC locos converted to DCC, but N scale small steam is very hard to do. Not impossible, but I havent completely figured out how, yet. And there really are NO N scale small steam available out of the box NOW (Atlas has announced their Shay and are taking orders). I have several small N scale steam that I have had converted. I am slowly getting there. I have one with sound! It's all possible with enough time and money....
I've been told that it's not practical or advisable to run both DC and DCC locos on a layout together. Usually by someone at a hobby store that either has never run DCC locos and in one case by someone who himself in his hobby store is set up to run both!! After I pointed that out to him he said yes, but we have to because we have both DC and DCC locos. Well I'll be darned....
With HO they have a point, but with N scale DCC is more limited. Anyway, it's possible to do what I'm doing. I know cause I'm doing it!!!
pilot wrote:Also, keep in mind, if you have DC locos, you can PARK it anywhere on the layout while running your DCC locos (and vice versa). So there's more advantage than you might think.
Actually...it's probably better to remove any surplus DC-only locomotives that you have on your layout while running DCC - especially if they will remain idle or static. The only way to avoid that is to park your DC locomotives on an electrically isolated section of track that you can turn off and on, so that you don't have to subject yourself to the "squealing pig" sound associated with DC locomotives run on DCC. There's still much discussion as to whether the squeal is really good for the motor or not.
tstage wrote:There's still much discussion as to whether the squeal is really good for the motor or not.
It MAY not be bad, but it certainly isn't good.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!