FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

[jfugate]

Bob:

Volume 3 is done and undergoing final *sweetening* work today and tomorrow to get the sound and video to look its absolute best. I expect the DVD production (they burn them on a duplicator array device as they ship them) and shipping to start on Monday.

MyMemoirs Video on the order and shipping side is a little one-horse outfit with some ocassional part time help, my wife (the full-time staff person) is talking about bringing in the part-timer to help with volume 3 shipping on Monday. With subscriptions, there is a mass quantity of volume 3 orders to ship ... they estimate it will take a week to ship all the domestic and Canadian orders.

Last time, they shipped the domestic orders first, A-Z, then the Canadian and foreign ones. This time, they're talking about starting in the middle of the alphabet and working out, with the Canadian orders included with the domestic ones.

So everyone gets an "equal" chance at being first or last, across the series, since when each one is released, it takes the better part of a week to fill all the orders. [swg]

[Bob Hayes]

Joe,

A couple of months ago, even though I already had a Digitrax Chief with a DT100 throttle, I was considering the NCE system, just because of the throttle shape and size of the display, although I wasn't too thrilled with the thumbwheel speed control. After downloading the manual, I determined that putting a consist together would require a lot of button pushing. Since the hand unit can only control one loco at a time, first I have to select a loco, enter it as the lead unit, select a second loco, enter it as the rear unit, select the loco to go in between the two previously selected locos, hit add, select another loco to go between the last one selected and the rear unit, hitting add, all the while having to hit recall if I wanted to change any of the other loco settings, or move the consist. If this sounds confusing, it's because it confused me. With the DT400 hand held unit, I could select the lead loco with the left throttle, select the next loco to go in the consist with the right throttle, move it to couple to the first, hit the add button, select the third loco with the right throttle, move it to the consist, hit add, and so forth. Seemed much easier than the NCE hand unit. Went to the train show in Eugene and one of the display layouts was using the Digitrax DT400. It seemed much easier to use and wasn't as bulky as I had expected, plus the person who let me try the DT400 said he thought the NCE hand unit felt cheaply made. Now I haven't actually tried the NCE unit, but based on that experience, I purchased the DT400 hand unit, and have been happy with it.

By the way, has Vol. 3 actually shipped? Should I expect it to arrive Saturday or Monday, since mail only seems to take one day from here to Portland?

Bob Hayes

[SilverSpike]

Joe,

Now that has to be one of the best 'pros and cons' explanations I have ever read in the case of Digitrax. I think now that I am going to give a serious look at both NCE and Easy DCC as viable options.

Thanks,

Ryan

[jfugate]

kenkal:

To anyone trying to decide between NCE and Digitrax, let me post a few of my personal observations about these two systems, and which I would pick. Now realize, I use EasyDCC, so hopefully, that would make me a bit less biased when comparing two systems, neither of which I own.

The big advantage of NCE's system to me is the user interface. NCE's design is exceptionally user-friendly, while Digitrax's design is less so. Digitrax has made good strides in the user-friendly area, but NCE still has them beat hands down, IMO.

To me, one real test of user-friendly is how close you need to keep the manual so you can refer to it for less routine tasks, and how obvious is it for a newbie, from just looking at the handheld, to figure out how to do a more advanced function.

Take consisting, for example. Look at even the most current Digitrax handheld, and you don't get a clue how to proceed to make a consist. Now look at the NCE handheld.

NCE has a consist section, with buttons SETUP, CLEAR, ADD, DEL ...

Pretty clear how to create a consist just by glancing at the handheld.

Also, the standard NCE system comes with the computer interface built in, right out of the box (as does EasyDCC). With Digitrax and Lenz, you have to buy more stuff if you want to hook a computer to your system (and with handy free decoder programming software like DecoderPro, you *want* to connect your PC to your system, trust me).

The one major downside to the NCE system has been the entry cost ... steep to say the least, compared to a Digitrax Zephyr system -- until now. With the ProCab product from NCE, the cost of entry for NCE has now dropped considerably.

The other consideration when chosing a system is to look at what other modelers in your area are using. Getting local support, being able to share cabs, etc. is all very handy, so that should be a major factor as well.

If cost is the major deciding factor for a DCC system, then I usually recommend Digitrax. If ease-of-use and feature set out of the box is the number one deciding factor (and cost is secondary), then I usually recommend NCE or EasyDCC.

[jfugate]

kenkal:

I believe John was referring to the problems I have had in the past with wireless reception on NCE. But that was in the very early stages of NCE wireless, and the latest I've heard is that reception issues with NCE wireless are now largely a thing of the past.

To be fair, EasyDCC also had reception issues with the wireless throttles when I first got them, but a few months later CVP released an EPROM upgrade that solved the reception issues and EasyDCC reception has been rock solid ever since.

It was just after the EasyDCC upgrade to rock solid reception that I first got to experience NCE wireless operation on some larger layouts and things were pretty buggy, to say the least.

But happily, that all seems to be ancient history now ... and if anyone with an NCE system is having wireless reception issues, then you need to contact NCE because I think they have a fix for you. [:D]

[kenkal]

John, I must have missed something. What are the NCE problems you experienced? I'm trying very hard to decide between NCE and Digitrax and this could affect my decision.
& what does "timeout" do? Do you mean before hitting enter? Or the throttle just stops responding? Or? Thanks. Ken

QUOTE: Originally posted by johncolley

Joe, et al, I have not had a lot of experience with various brands of DCC but I have Prodigy Advance for home use, and will be adding Digitrax capability to my modules for Free-mo compliance. I have used NCE at a friend's operations based layout and experienced the problems you mentioned, plus a peeve with me is the fact that you can be running and the throttle will time out, then you make a change and nothing happens...wait for your memory to click in and frantically hit the button, if it's not too late! It seems to me that is bad design! Question is do other brands have that same problem?

[wt259]

Joe, the tip you gave earlier on soldering feeders to the track worked great!! Thanks, it really improved the looks where I used it. The only question is, where were you when I soldered the first 2/3's of my layout? [:D] Just kidding. Thanks for the tip.
Wayne

[jfugate]

Jon:

EasyDCC used to have annoying delay with wireless throttles, but recent releases of the EPROM have included upgrades that solved the delay issues.

That said, it is true with EasyDCC that if you need more than 8 wireless throttles at once (large layouts, in other words), you need to have throttles start sharing frequencies, which can also introduce delays in wireless throttle response.

I need more than 8 throttles on the Siskiyou Line, so the way we address this issue with EasyDCC is run "mixed mode" with 5 dedicated frequencies and 3 shared ones.

We use the 5 dedicated throttles for yard switchers and locals, and the through trains get the shared throttles. An occassional slight delay in throttle response on a through train is hardly even noticed, and if noticed, rarely matters.

In short, EasyDCC wireless works very well, and I remain quite pleased with it. The latest announcement from CVP is that they're coming out with wireless handhelds that include a display and programming capability from the handheld. With this latest development, EasyDCC will now be more directly comparible to NCE and their wireless "ops mode programming" capability from their handhelds.

P.S. I don't include Digitrax in my wireless system comparison because of the need to have a "throttle bus" (LocoNet) with plugs around the layout so you can plug in the wireless unit to acquire locos. With NCE and EasyDCC, you can forget running a special throttle bus around the layout ... you don't need it if you are totally wireless.

Lenz, with their cell phone wireless option, I consider a bit of a black sheep offering. Although it works, there is no feedback displayed, and I want a throttle with a knob. Using a keypad for control feels too 21st century to me. That's what happens if you got into the hobby in the 1960s, I suppose. [;)]

[n2mopac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Been putting the finishing touches on my new DCC DVD that starts shipping in the next few days. It's 102 minutes packed with step-by-step how to info on DCC. Not a lot of theory -- more here's what I've learned in 12 years of using DCC. Sort of a video version of this clinic. If you are interested in the video, see: http://mymemoirs.net/model-trains-set1-vol3b.php
NOTE: Use coupon code MR0722j and save 10 bucks.

After the DVD ships, plan to post more info on consisting on here as promised.

Only so many hours in the day, and I'd kinda like to work on the trains once in a while, too.[xx(]

Time constraints are perfectly understood ny most here I think and certainly by me. We will just keep this topic near the top and look forward to seeing more when it comes. Thanks again Joe.

Ron

[CP5170]

I have not had this problem with Digitrax.

[johncolley]

Joe, et al, I have not had a lot of experience with various brands of DCC but I have Prodigy Advance for home use, and will be adding Digitrax capability to my modules for Free-mo compliance. I have used NCE at a friend's operations based layout and experienced the problems you mentioned, plus a peeve with me is the fact that you can be running and the throttle will time out, then you make a change and nothing happens...wait for your memory to click in and frantically hit the button, if it's not too late! It seems to me that is bad design! Question is do other brands have that same problem?

[jfugate]

Been putting the finishing touches on my new DCC DVD that starts shipping in the next few days. It's 102 minutes packed with step-by-step how to info on DCC. Not a lot of theory -- more here's what I've learned in 12 years of using DCC. Sort of a video version of this clinic. If you are interested in the video, see this link.
NOTE: Use coupon code MR0722j and save 10 bucks.

After the DVD ships, plan to post more info on consisting on here as promised.

Only so many hours in the day, and I'd kinda like to work on the trains once in a while, too.

[chateauricher]

back to the top...

[n2mopac]

I' m just bringng thins topic back to the front and hoping to learn more soon. [:)]

Ron

[jfugate]

Don:

I'm assuming you are talking about throttles here.

Wireless is certainly high on the list, as well as a throttle with a nice big knob, and not a keypad. I prefer the speed control knob to be linear, not continuous ... this really helps when running helpers. "Okay, moving to 1 o'clock on the throttle" so the helper can follow suit.

Real throttle notches would be *wonderful* for a realistic operation feel to running diesels. The closest thing like this right now for DCC is RailDriver:
http://www.raildriver.com/rdcontrols/desktop.php

[Don Gibson]

Joe

Based on your experieces - if you were starting over - what FEATURES would you put at the top of your list?, and possibly in order of importance

An example might be 'a continous control knob'. For me a wireless control would be #1.

QUESTION: If a Diesel engineer has eight - sixteen throttle notches, why are 24 or 101 speed steps needed, or desired for modeling? - especially if one has variable Momentum.

Don Gibson

[CP5170]

bump

[chateauricher]

bump (this topic seems to get lost quickly)

[n2mopac]

Sounds great. I look forward to it.

Ron

[jfugate]

Ron:

Oh, lots more to come!

Just busy working on the last of the DCC video, taking the 4th holiday, etc.

I hope to post the next installment on using DecoderPro to do speed curves sometime this week.

[n2mopac]

I'm just curious . . . I know it's been a holiday and all, but I'm wondering if this clinic is played or if there is still more to come?

Ron

[Anonymous]

Jim,

I can't argue with cost, but I would have to say that good DC wiring practices are exactly the same as good DCC wiring practices (maybe with the exception of the lightbulb breaker). Many of my train buddies (who have been in the hobby much longer than I have) couldn't see what all the fuss was about "DCC friendly" switches because they had been using the same practices in DC for many years!!!

As for wiring multicab control in DC, DCC is by comparison far simpler.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chateauricher

Joe,

Thanks for explaining all that. It makes much more sense now.

So, just who is the insane genious who thought up all this DCC/square-AC-pulses/asymetrical-AC-waves business ??? [;)][:P]

Lenz came up with the original DCC spec they gave to the NMRA for free, so I would suspect it was their *genius* that came up with this.

[#offtopic]P.S. Permit me an off-topic comment: look at what Lenz did versus how MTH has approached DCC. Lenz is one of the big four in DCC today so their contribution to the world hasn't hurt them one bit. MTH on the other hand is considered by many to be the "robber baron" of the manufacturers in the hobby with their lawsuit orientation.

What a contrast!

[jfugate]

olerish:

If the budget is tight and cost is the most important, then I can't argue with you that DC is cheaper. Although I would take issue that the wiring is any simpler with straight DC if you still want to run multiple trains. If having totally independent control of each train is most important and other things are secondary, wireless DCC is hard to beat.

Most of the DCC wiring practices simply add robustness to the wiring to make it reliable, and make debugging problems easier. And the extra work is *not* that much harder. I and one of my modeling friends completely rewired the power feed side of the Siskiyou Line to take advantage of the 1156 bulb short management in 2002 and it took us three 8 hour days to do it, at a cost of about $100 in new parts and materials.

The result is a very short-resistant and reliable Siskiyou Line layout from the wiring side.

Watch the ads in MR for analog wireless throttles ... but you'll pay nearly as much as you would for a DCC system, and you won't have the operational flexibility DCC gives you.

[oleirish]

Joe;
Your work is great on DCC,but I'am thinking about going back to analog because of the cost and time spent under the train board wireing,All most everything written on DCC says you need all these bus lines under the board,and even been stated that you need feed lines everywhere your track is joined,then reverse loop things,then worrying about your switch frogs if there not right,rewireing them and so on,and so on?on top of all of that you need to solder every joint so your DCC works right,if your track is layed right ,you do not need to solder every joint,good rail joiners are a must thats all[soapbox]
I tryed the DCC and have no real problem with it but it looks like the wiring is just a much!I'am getting redday to start my new layout and hope my last one for a while,It will be in two 4'X6' sections so it, can be moved on down the line sometime .total 4'X12' I opreate my rail road by my self and sometimes the grandkids help.I still have to lay on m back on the floor to do the wireing.and analog is cheaper.I have two DCC unites and a couple of engines W/decoders.But to convert all my engines to DCC is expensive.Does any one make a wireless controlers for analog?
OLE'IRISH
JIM

[chateauricher]

Joe,

Thanks for explaining all that. It makes much more sense now.

So, just who is the insane genious who thought up all this DCC/square-AC-pulses/asymetrical-AC-waves business ??? [;)][:P]

[jfugate]

Timothy:

Strictly speaking, DCC puts square wave AC to the track. So to measure things like track voltage and so on directly, you need to use AC equipment -- however AC measuring equipment won't work exactly right, because most AC equipment is not designed to measure square wave AC.

Okay, now the clever part is how DCC does the square wave AC ... they put a square wave on the rails that is + voltage for a fraction of a second, then - voltage for exactly the same duration as a the + voltage. What this does to a straight DC loco is the + and - voltage cancel each other out, so the motor just buzzes softly and a straight DC loco does not move.

The sneaky part is you can make just the + or - part of a wave longer, to create a voltage differential across the rails -- and make a straight DC loco run on AC! That's how the '00' address to run a DC loco works.

The square waves are actually encoded digital signals to the decoder. Each normal duration square wave is a pulse that the decoder sees as a 1, and each extra large single pulse the decoder sees as a zero.

DCC sends its commands down the track as a series of these zeros and ones, like this: 10010110 11101111 00110111 00001000 and so on. Every place you see a 1, you get a brief + and a matching - voltage square wave. Every place you see a zero, you get an extra long +/- voltage square wave.

With AC on the rails, it's a simple matter to have some diodes in the decoder to filter the AC voltage to turn it into pulsed DC for the motor. The decoder listens for commands sent down the rails addressed to it, and then controls the filtered DC voltage it allows the motor to receive.

The specific details of what's going on with DCC are basically correct above, but I've glossed over lots of pesky details to convey things in simple terms.

The short answer is DCC is AC, and you can turn AC on the rails into DC to the loco motor with some diodes in the decoder -- or create a plus or minus voltage bias across the rails by making asymetrical AC square waves, and get a non-decoder equipped DC loco to run!

[chateauricher]

Joe,

In another thread, someone said that the traditional DC systems use DC (direct current) electricity of variable voltage to control the speed and direction of a locomotive. While I agree with and understand that; they also said that DCC uses AC (alternating current) electricity.

I don't think they are correct, but I haven't found any information about it to back up my argument. Except that : if DCC uses AC current, then how is it possible to run a DC current non-decoder-equiped locomotive on a DCC system? Are DC motors built to work with AC electricity? If all you need to do is install a decoder in a locomotive to make it DCC-compatible, then why don't you have to change the motor so that it is AC-compatible?

So, my question to you, Joe, if you would be so kind to answer ...
Does DCC use AC or DC electrical current?

[rrinker]

Of course you're aware that by using DecoderPro and the IDENT function in the Comprehensive Programmer, it will tell you what the decoder is, without having to manually read CV7 and CV8.

A list of various decoder settings for differetn decoder/loco combinations is a GREAT idea, I will add a section to my web site for the ones I've done. Like the recent conversation between myself and another user ont he QSI group (about a Digitrax decoder, go figure) - I experimetned and worked out a setting for the 3 CV's thaton Digitrax Series 3 decoders controls the torque compensation to make a Proto2000 SD45 run nice and smooth. The other person tried those settings in an Atlas loco with no joy, well,t he Atlas motor and drive IS superior to the Proto2000's so that is to be expected. But if anyone has a DH163L0 in an SD45, I can provide settings that make it run much nicer than the defaults. Slower, too, the stock top speed is somewhere around 200 smph. As soon as I adjust my GP-7's, I'll have a list for those, as well.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Joe. You're making this too easy. Now I'll have to explain to my wife the new gear to connect the MRR to the new notebook. Actually she is very supportive and probably will even let me use her notebook. I use desktops, which are not conveniently located to the train room.

J