FORUM CLINIC: 12 years using DCC - SIGNIFICANT NEW INFO!

[jfugate]

John:

Great question! That's one of the nice things about the group that has banded together to produce DecoderPro. They've also compiled a list of CV7 and CV8 values for all decoders, making it possible for you to determine what's inside the loco without taking off the shell. [:D]

Here's a sample of this list:
[code]
Manufacturer Model CV7 value CV8 value
============ ======== ========= ==========
Atlas 340 45 99
Atlas 341 45 127
Atlas LE063XF 45 127
CVP Products AD4 62 135
CVP Products AD4 61 135
Digitrax DN144 105 129
Digitrax DH121 34 129
Digitrax DH142 250 129
Digitrax DH150A 107 129
Digitrax DH150K 107 129
Digitrax DH163IP 49 129
Digitrax DN140 107 129
[/code]

If you want the whole list, you'll need to go to the DecoderPro Yahoo List ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jmriusers/ ) and subscribe. Then in the database section, you will find a file called: Decoder Versions. You can download it to a spreadsheet if you want -- that's what I've done.

I've moved the CV8 column to the left of the CV7 column, then resorted the list by CV8, then CV7, making it very easy to look up the values and from there to determine the decoder that's installed.

NOTE: CV8 is the manufacturer number, and CV7 is the decoder version number. Using those two values and the list from the DecoderPro Yahoo List site, you can find out what's inside the loco just by reading a couple CVs.

[Anonymous]

Joe, your last three posts made me realize that I want/need something I didn't even know existed. When you first started on DCC and computer connections, I thought that I would be skipping the next few installments (small, simple layout - don't need computer hook-up), but boy would I like to be able to program decoders like you show using DecoderPro. It's on my wishlist.

Now for a stupid question:

I had decoders installed at the LHS. Not sure I know or can easily figure out what decoder is in what loco. Will DecoderPro recognize what decoder is installed or is that something I will have to figure out before I can use DecoderPro to program the already-installed decoders?

Thanks once again for all the knowledge you share with us (particularly guys like me who know so little).

John

[jfugate]

Rob:

Excellent! Makes me think it might be useful just to have an exchange where people post their typical decoder CV settings that work well for various loco and decoder brand combinations ...

[Rob Davies]

Joe,

Just a quick note of thanks regarding your section on DecoderPro and the example Digitrax setup. I use a RoCo LokMaus 2 setup, which allows you to program a decoder via a Lenz LI101F serial interface (but not able to read a decoder - for half the price of an Atlas Commander setup, I'm VERY pleased with it!). I recently bought a DH631ip for installation in a Kato SD40-2 - the default settings of the decoder were a LONG way from perfect for the SD40. Luckily, I remembered your clinic on decoder setup and, thanks to you I have a VERY sweet running Kato/Digitrax loco running.

Cheers Joe!

-Rob in the UK

[jfugate]

Cool! Thanks, Simon, for the heads up!

This release completely rewrites the EasyDCC interface, which is something that interests me since that's what I use. [:D]

[simon1966]

JMRI just released a new version (1.6) which offers a number of new decoder definitions and other enhancements. I have downloaded it but not had a chance to play with it yet. I don't think that this release has the full QSI support implemented yet.

[jfugate]

oleirish:

No response as to what you meant by "best" wireless system, so I will define best as "best radio reception" in terms of reliability, and add the requirement that the throttle must be truly wireless with no need to ever plug in (rules out Digitrax). And further, the throttle must use a rotary knob for speed control, not a keypad (rules out Lenz).

This leaves the other two biggies, NCE and EasyDCC. I have EasyDCC and have used NCE wireless on a few layouts as a guest operator. I've also downloaded and read the manuals for NCE.

My experience using NCE wireless was less than stellar. Reception was not always reliable and subject to odd behavior. One case in particular had the owner so fit to be tied that he said if NCE didn't get this problem solved, he was seriously considering changing systems. I have heard NCE doubled the length of their receiver antenna and strengthened the signal a bit in an attempt to improve things, but I have not heard if this has solved these teething pains.

EasyDCC wireless, in my experience, was a bit finicky when I first got my system in 2000, with reception sometimes being poor at one extreme end of my layout behind a peninsula and a house wall. I did find that even in this location if I dropped the throttle down below my waist and pointed it at the ground, the signal was received -- so I had a workaround and I just taught my operators to do that if they had a reception problem.

In 2002, they released a firmware upgrade for the EasyDCC system and receiver. Immediately the reception problem went away and has been rock solid ever since. So in my experience, the most reliable wireless reception is EasyDCC. And the EasyDCC wireless throttles are about $20 cheaper than the NCE wireless throttles.

All purely my personal preference and opinion, of course. Each person must define *best* for themselves, and you can see here how I have defined it for myself.

[jfugate]

jxtrrx:

Thanks ... I love to teach, and this forum, as well as the how-to videos I'm producing give me a chance to take the hobby I love and join it with teaching!

The Siskiyou Line video series allows me to put useful how-tos onto video, and after that series is done, who knows? I'd like to see an entire library of how-to videos built up and made accessible over the internet. Nothing like watching how it's done to finally "get it" ! [:D]

[jxtrrx]

Joe, you are a tremendous asset to our forum. I add my thanks for your clinics… very helpful stuff for me. I can’t afford the Serial to USB interface and Digitrax interface required for the computer programming yet, but sounds like good stuff for the wish list.

[jfugate]

*Best* is a loaded term. Cheapest? Most user friendly? Best radio reception range? Most features?

[oleirish]

What is the best wireless systeam to get and what is the cost??

[simon1966]

Thanks Joe, I appreciate your hints on your default settings. I have used Decoder Pro for a few months now and could not imagine programming without it.

[jfugate]

TOPIC NEXT POST: Super-simple decoder programming with DecoderPro

Okay, you've got your computer connected to your command station, now how do you use DecoderPro to do it's thing?


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Let's program this Kato SD45, SP 7444, on the programming track. I have a Digitrax DH142 decoder installed, and I need to set up the decoder for this loco. I place the loco on the programming track, and fire up DecoderPro on my laptop, which is connected to my EasyDCC system with a special serial cable as we discussed earlier.

Click the “Use Programming Track” button.


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In the service mode programming window, we select the decoder type from the list, which is a Digitrax DH142 ...


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... and click “open programmer”.


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The progamming window comes up and we fill out the first panel with some basic info we want to keep about our loco like it's ID - SP7444, road name - SP, road number 7444, manufacturer – Kato, and model – an SD45R.


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MORE TABS, MORE THINGS WE CAN PROGRAM
Let's see what other tabs we have ... we have the basic tab, which lists general address configuration settings, then we have the motor tab, which lets you set acceleration, deceleration, and motor voltages.


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The speed control tab allows you to program detailed speed curves, the function map tab lets you remap function keys (depending on what the decoder allows), the lights tab lets you set how you want any headlight effects to work, the consist tab lets you make the loco part of a consist, the advanced tab lists any extra decoder features ... the CVs tab lists all the CVs in a spreadsheet like format, and the vendor specific tab – Digitrax in this case – lists any extra special settings that apply only to Digitrax decoders.


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Focusing on the basic tab for a moment, I set the primary address to 44 since I use the last two digits on the cab when I use the short address. I set the long address to 7444, which is the full address of the loco. I stay with the normal direction default of forward, and set the speed steps to 28/128. I make sure analog conversion mode is always off on all my decoders, since I find decoder performance to be much more reliable with this setting.


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Finally I put my private ID in the two fields at the right.

Looking at the buttons on the bottom for a moment we see you can read changes on the sheet, write changes on the sheet, read the full sheet, or write the full sheet.


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HOW DECODERPRO MARKS FIELDS FOR YOU
DecoderPro marks all fields at program startup to yellow. If you change the value of a field, it sets the field to orange. If you click write changes on sheet, it will write only the orange fields to the decoder. As it writes the fields, it sets them to red. Once the fields have been written to the decoder, they change to white.


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I don't recommend you use the read buttons very often unless you are willing to be patient because the command station has to do the 20 questions approach, asking “are you a 1, are you a 2, and so on” which can be quite slow. Never do “read full sheet” unless you are going to lunch because it can literally take that long to read back all the CVs in a decoder.

If I want to know what the values are in a decoder, I write them to the decoder using DecoderPro, then save them to the PC. Since I use decoderPro exclusively now to set CVs, I can just bring up the file later on the PC if I want to know what the CVs are set to. If the loco is acting funny, I'll just put it on the programming track and reload all the CVs with DecoderPro and that usually fixes the problem.

Moving on the motor tab, I typically set the kick start value to 10, the acceleration rate to 4 and the deceleration rate to 4. I find just a slight bit of delay smooths out the loco response but isn't so much that it irritates my operators.


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The last three compensation settings are for back emf on Digitrax decoders. I stay with the default of 128 for static compensation, but set the dynamic compensation to 5 and the droop to 8. This gives a gentle back emf compensation to smooth loco operation, but that still requires you to work the throttle some on curves and hills. Too much compensation makes the loco run the same speed everywhere – up hills, down hills, through curves – which is a great trick, but not very realistic.

We write these settings to the decoder, and then move to the speed control tab.

I prefer to use speed curves in all my locos, as opposed to voltage settings. For the moment, I set the first speed step to 18 and click constant ratio curve. I leave the forward and reverse trim at the default of 128, and we write the changes on the sheet to the decoder.


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Click “Save” under the file menu to save your decoder settings to disk.


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TOPIC NEXT POST: Cool ways to use DecoderPro for programming on the main

[jfugate]

My nose is in video land at the moment trying to get video volume 3 put to bed. It was originally due out in May, but the comments from the postings on this topic have helped me see where certain topics needed more work.

So I'm adding another 20 minutes to an already 80 minute video to make sure it's as clear and understandable as possible. Technical material can be really bad if it's confusing, and I want this video to be the best yet, and full of *very useful* material.

So that's what I've been up to in the last few weeks, and I'm pushing hard to get done so we can ship it in July.[:D]

I plan to post the next installment on here within the next day or two ... I'm alive and well -- just very, very busy!

[Bob Hayes]

I find this very interesting; Joe gets upset if there are no responses to his clinic chapters in the first 1 or 2 days, but he hasn't posted any up dates to this forum clinic in the last 7 days and I note he is not on vacation! To paraphrase other posters "What's up with" Joe?

Bob Hayes

[chateauricher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

so many posts that threads tend to get lost . we really need to get sticky threads around here !

I agree wholeheartedly.

To the powers that be : please sticky this and the other forum clinics.

[jeffshultz]

Joe,

Just went through and got caught up with this thread and the scenery one. I've got the Design for Ops one bookmarked.

They look like they'll make a great working aid along with the DVDs.

And I finally understand how you are wiring in the 1156s - the NMRA Conference DVD jumped straight to the last slide and my eyes crossed tracking all those wires!

With any luck I'll get my father-in-law to look at this thread, he just bought a Digitrax Zephyr w/radio rcv'r and a UT-4R.

[Bob Hayes]

If you click on "Watch this topic", the forum will notify you when there is a reply, and you can just click on the address that's included in the email. Of course I haven't been following my own advise, so I end up looking through the forum until I find this thread. Sometimes that is good, sometimes not.
Bob Hayes

[ereimer]

so many posts that threads tend to get lost . we really need to get sticky threads around here !

[selector]

I've seen it, Joe. Pretty neat stuff. If I build another, more ambitious layout with more locos, I will get into this latest series of posts. Right now, my SEB and two DCC locos are all I can handle!

[jfugate]

Just making sure everyone is aware I've posted another clinic installment today.

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: Connecting your PC to your command station

Once you have DecoderPro installed on your PC, you need to connect your PC to your command station so you can program decoders from it.

A note on PCs: Obviously, a laptop will be the most convenient type of PC to use for programming decoders with DecoderPro. If you look on ebay, you can often find used laptops with enough horsepower to easily run DecoderPro for a few hundred dollars. Newer laptops, on the other hand, often don't have a serial port – and a serial port (also known as an RS-232 port) is generally how DecoderPro expects you to connect your PC to DCC your command station. Modern laptops have dropped the older style serial port in favor of newer USB ports.

Fortunately, the loss of the serial port on modern laptops in favor of USB ports has caused USB to Serial Port convertors to become common to address this need. These devices typically cost from $20 - $60. The Keyspan converter, which costs about $50, has been thoroughly tested by the DecoderPro developers and found to work reliably, so they recommend it. Here's a link: http://keyspan.com/products/usb/USA19HS/#otherImages

USB to Serial Port converter

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If you have an NCE system, connecting a PC to your command station couldn't be easier: you just plug in a standard 9-pin serial cable into the command station and off you go.

Connecting a PC to an NCE system is easy (9-pin port in upper middle-right)

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For EasyDCC, which I have, you need to construct your own cable, because the EasyDCC end requires an RJ-11 phone plug. I cover how to build one of these cables in the special features section of my upcoming video on all things DCC.


For Lenz, you need to get the LI computer interface (about $100), and then use a standard 9-pin serial cable to connect your computer to the system.

Connecting a PC to a Lenz system means you need to buy more hardware



For Digitrax, you need an adapter to connect your computer to LocoNet. Your choices are ( in order of preference): LocoBuffer II, LocoBuffer, or an MS-100. Your best bet is to use a LocoBuffer II, which goes for $60 from RR-CirKits.

Connecting a PC to a Digitrax system means you need to buy more hardware


For more details, or to learn about other DCC systems and how to connect to them, go to the DecoderPro hardware connectivity guide at: http://www.decoderpro.com/hardware/

If you want to use DecoderPro to program decoders with an Atlas, Bachman, or MRC DCC system, you are simply out of luck.

Once you have your PC connected to your command station then the fun begins! Inside DecoderPro, go to the preferences panel. This opens automatically the first time the program is run, or you can select it from the "Edit" menu. Select your system from the dropdown box, in my case I select EasyDCC since that's my system. Depending your system, you may have to select a baud rate -- the documentation that comes with your system's computer interface should tell you what to select. You can also go to the DecoderPro hardware link above for more detail.

Click "Save". You'll be asked if it's OK for the program to quit, click "Yes". Restart DecoderPro, and the programming buttons should no longer be grayed out, so you're all set to go!

Let's look at how to program a loco decoder with DecoderPro next.

TOPIC NEXT POST: Super-simple decoder programming with DecoderPro

[Anonymous]

Joe, thanks for all your tips.

I'll likely print out this thread and throw it into my MRR'ing notebook. I'm sure DCC is in my future.

Good stuff.

The best part is your info is more up to date than any book could be by the time it's printed!

[jfugate]

Dave:

Glad to hear you find this info useful ... that's why I take the time to post it here!

[:D]

[Anonymous]

Hi Everyone, just joined a short time ago and am new to just about all of this. I am currently just doing my homework so as not to make too many 'dumb, didn't do your research' kind of mistakes. You know, the ones that cost $$$? Just been cruising the threads trying to get the feel of things and I am truly impressed with everyones' knowledge of everything RR. The layout photos are awesome. I hope to tap into the huge talent base for info and tips.

Joe- thanks for the clinic. It really helps to hear from someone who has your knowledge and experience. All of the reading on DCC has had me in a fog as to the aspect of wiring the layout. So far this has clarified things a great deal.

Thanks to all
Dave

[Anonymous]

Trains are fun, kids are forever. Hope your son is doing much better.

My daughter fought asthma when she was younger (never went into the hospital), but between the hamster dying and her getting older she's doing much better. I hope the same can happen for your son.

Mark in Utah

[selector]

That must have been a scare, Ron! Good to hear that he is okay and you can relax with us again.

[n2mopac]

Thanks, Joe and others, for your very complete and informative answers on my bulb questions. I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier. My 6 year old son has been in the hospital the past four days--just diagnosed with asthma. He is home and doing fine now, but I didn't have opportunity to check back here and respond until today for obvious reasons. Thanks again. I think I have a handle on it now.

Ron

[simon1966]

You can also access Decoderpro from the www.decoderpro.com web address. One really important point, to head off any installation problems, is to ensure that the correct version of Java is installed BEFORE you install Decoderpro. If you join the JMRI yahoo group you will quickly notice that 90% of problems with installation are as a result of installing the Decoderpro application before Java is correctly installed.

Decoderpro is an excellent application and is well worth supporting. When one considers that this is a volenteer project, made available for free, it is even more amazing.

There is a new version due out soon that will have support for the latest QSI sound equipped decoders. For now, the support for the sound portion of these decoders is very limited.

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: Programming loco decoders

DCC allows you to independently configure a locomotive decoder with custom settings for that locomotive, so you can literally tune each locomotive to get the best performance out of it..

Loco decoders include the ability to set starting voltage and speed, top speed, configure reverse settings to be different from the forward settings and a whole host of of other options.

This is all done using configuration variables or CVs. While there are some common CVs in the NMRA DCC standard, many CVs are not standard and vary considerably from one decoder manufacturer to another. In order to get the most from a decoder, you can spend hours pouring over complex manuals trying to figure out binary bit settings to get certain features to work as you want.

A free open source decoder programming aid is now available called DecoderPro that alleviates most of the loco decoder programming pain and complexity. You need some sort of PC running either Windows, the Mac OS, or Linux. Using an internet connection, you can download DecoderPro, install it, connect your PC to your command station, and be in point-and-click decoder programming heaven!

The next few series of posts on this forum clinic we'll step through how to download, install, configure, and use DecoderPro to program decoders. Believe me, once you see how easy it is to program even complex decoder settings with DecoderPro, you won't want to go back to doing decoder programming by bit-fiddling with arcane CV's documented somewhere in your decoder manual!


DOWNLOADING DECODER PRO
Navigate your computer browser to this link:

http://jmri.sourceforge.net/

Click on the DecoderPro link on the left, then click on the download link at the top of the page. On this page you will see various versions listed for specific operating systems. In this clinic we focus on Windows, since the lion's share of PC users have that os.


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INSTALLING DECODER PRO
Once you have downloaded DecoderPro, you need to install it. On the DecoderPro main page you will see the install guides listed at the left. Click on the Windows link.


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On this page you can read about what you need to have hardware-wise to install DecoderPro. Your machine must be at least 120MHz Pentium II, have 64MB or more memory, and be able to display 800x600 screen resolution.

You also need to get and install Java. You may already have Java installed on your machine -- you can open a command window on your system and check to see if you already have Java installed. Open a MSDOS command line window and type the command shown here:


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If you have Java installed, you will get a response that lists the Java version, something like what we show here:


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I have Java 1.4.2 installed, which will work just fine – you need to have Java version 1.3.1 or later installed. I'm okay as it is, but for purposes of showing you here how to download and install Java, let's assume I need to download and install it (it's free from Sun Microsystems). Just below the sample “java -version” command you will see the link for downloading Java. Click the link:


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This takes you to a page with a button on it for downloading the latest version of Java. Click the button to download Java:


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Once you have downloaded the Java installer, double click on it, and answer yes to the license agreement. On the next screen, take the typical installation, as shown here:


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Once the install is complete, click the finish button:


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Now if you open the command window and type java -version you should see a version of Java listed. I did have version 1.4.2, but now you can see I have the latest version, which happens to be 1.5.0:


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Go ahead now and double click on the DecoderPro install icon to install DecoderPro itself.


STARTING UP DECODER PRO
With Java installed, you are all set to fire up DecoderPro. Just double click the DecoderPro icon on your desktop. You should see this box come up:


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Notice the programming buttons are grayed out ... that means you need to connect your PC to your command station. We'll cover how to do that in the next installment of this FORUM CLINIC.

TOPIC NEXT POST: Connecting your PC to your command station