Trains.com

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Digitrax versus NCE

8126 views
129 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 8,853 posts
Posted by maxman on Saturday, July 20, 2024 1:32 PM

And hopefully this will be a less expensive solution than spending X amount of dollars for un-needed boosters.

I would suggest the following for repeat offenders:

A labeled diagram of a hammer

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 1,206 posts
Posted by mfm37 on Saturday, July 20, 2024 8:00 AM

That "Global: stop is a PITA. At the large N Scale  Layout in Louisville in 2008 all throttles had to have that turned off. Throttles were inspected by the DCC Staff before they could run a train on the red line.

I recall talking to A.J. Ireland about this feature. He told me that he would have left that feature out if it wasn't something many individual operators wanted.

When that dot is blinking, DCC packets are stopped but track power stays on. I've even taken phone calls while away from a layout to "fix" that problem.

Martin Myers

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Saturday, July 20, 2024 2:54 AM

We had to do that with our UWT throttles too and our NCE throttles. Because people panic....especially when they forget that they are running a loco with a TCS decoder set up for momentum and braking and they didn't plan properly. 

  • Member since
    August 2015
  • 26 posts
Posted by ALEXANDER WOOD on Thursday, July 18, 2024 5:07 PM

Great post Paul. That was one thing that didn't even occur to me. I don't understand why people even use E-stop in the first place, it seems like cheating the system. If something really bad is going to happen, I can just hold the locomotive down or pull it back.

  • Member since
    March 2019
  • 213 posts
Posted by reasearchhound on Thursday, July 18, 2024 10:37 AM

Thanks for the info. Copied it and sent it on to the member who is in charge of getting the throttles to behave. He was at the club yesterday afternoon and managed to corral a few personal throttles and reconfigured them.

  • Member since
    September 2004
  • From: Dearborn Station
  • 24,281 posts
Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, July 17, 2024 2:17 PM

Interesting post, Paul. That sure sounds like what happened at the OP's club.

Rich 

Alton Junction

  • Member since
    May 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
  • 2,899 posts
Posted by Paul3 on Wednesday, July 17, 2024 1:08 PM

As a 25-year Digitrax user, the original problem of the layout randomly shutting down during operations is almost certainly caused by users of DT400/500-series throttles not knowing the difference between "local" stop and "global" stop.

On a Digitrax DT400 or 500, the Emergency Stop button can be programmed to work in one of two ways.  When the throttle is programmed to "local" stop, pressing the Emergency Stop button only zeros out the active throttle (pressing it again zeros out the other throttle) and cancels out any CV04 coasting momentum.  This only effects addresses being run by this one throttle only.

When a throttle is programmed to "global" stop, pressing the Emergency Stop button puts the layout into "Pause" mode. 

Every Digitrax system has three power modes: On, Off, and Pause.  On a DT400 or DT500-series throttle, there's a pixel in the upper right corner of the screen.  If this dot is on, the track power is on.  If it's off, the track power is off.  If the dot is blinking, the layout is paused.  Normally, the only way to pause the layout is to hit the Power button once, then hit "+" when the layout is already turned on (do it again to unpause).

"In pause" mode, all trains stop, thus the global aspect of the name.  Note that this does not zero out any throttles; it only stops trains from running.  When un-paused, all trains will resume at their current throttle setting.

A few end users at clubs like to think that they know what they're doing and they program their own throttles to be "global" stop (note that "local" stop is the default setting).  I guess they think that "global" sounds better than "local"?  Anyways, these folks also like to play with momentum effects like CV04, and when they get into trouble (like they're gonna hit a bumper or miss a Kadee magnet), they hit Emergency Stop and put the layout into Pause mode.

We've had so many incidents like this that we've had to teach every member what it means and to follow a set of programming guidelines for each throttle they have.

Please note that when a layout is paused, the track power is still on.  All headlights continue to function (but are not controllable), the status lights remain on and constant, etc., but no trains will move until it is unpaused.  The only way to tell if the layout is paused is to look at a throttle and look for the dot or, for a DT600, it will say "Paused".

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • 8,892 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Sunday, July 14, 2024 10:21 AM

ALEXANDER WOOD
with the DT400 series, they are on part with NCE, but then Digitrax seems to have regressed with the DT602 and UT6 with some truly weird design and UI/UX decisions.

Since I have switched to a different DCC system, I have a hardly ever used DT402D I am happy to part with if anyone is interested

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

  • Member since
    August 2015
  • 26 posts
Posted by ALEXANDER WOOD on Saturday, July 13, 2024 10:50 AM

reasearchhound
Well, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones.

I am pleased with the results.

That's a good decision. I would, however, like the others have said, focus on the actual problems before replacing ANYTHING. If one booster or power supply is bad, that one section will have issues and the others will not. Make sure the wiring is up to snuff, make sure your users aren't going rogue and performing unauthorized actions, make sure you have PSX/PSXX breakers on every power district and can isolate any electrical issues that come up.

Digitrax has a reputation of being hard to use. This was true with the DT100 and to an extent the DT300. It is NOT true with the DT400 series, they are on part with NCE, but then Digitrax seems to have regressed with the DT602 and UT6 with some truly weird design and UI/UX decisions.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: Sebring FL
  • 842 posts
Posted by floridaflyer on Friday, July 12, 2024 2:28 PM

What maxman said

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 8,853 posts
Posted by maxman on Friday, July 12, 2024 11:40 AM

reasearchhound

Well, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones.
I am pleased with the results.

 

Sure glad that I'm not a member.  And I'm happy that your organization is so flush with funds that they can afford to spend several hundreds of dollars to replace 5 amp boosters with 8 amp boosters, possibly unnecessarily,

Way at the beginning you stated that the railroad was shutting down, possibly because some person or persons was pushing an emergency stop key.  You said they were going to test for this, but I see nowhere  that this has been done.

If it were I, I'd make darn sure I had identified the problem before spending a dime.

  • Member since
    June 2007
  • 8,892 posts
Posted by riogrande5761 on Friday, July 12, 2024 7:21 AM

I am not surprised that the vote was 10/11 to keep the existing Digitrax system.  Primary reasons for keeping it probably are: 1) lower cash outlay, and 2) members are already familiar with the function and operation eliminating learning a new system (except for noobs of course - then the learning curve is "up-there" from my past experience).

I purchased a Digitrax Chief system many years ago and found the learning curve, or memorization of key strokes was not working for me.  The area where I live, I have noticed that most of the clubs use Digitrax, and when I have ran trains with one or two of them, someone always has to do the keystrokes before handing the throttle to me.  It reminded me of things desgined by engineers make the most sense to engineers.  I am not an engineer.  As I get older I want something that requires less of a learning curve. So when it came to wanting a new DCC system, I needed to look elsewhere.  Now that I have a layout that is nearly ready to start running trains (wiring is just about complete) I started researching options.  At first I considering NCE (which was purported to be easier to do consisting with), but TCS was newly offering their system and as I learned more about it and read the feedback of users of the system, I became convinced that, for a similar cost, it made more sense to me to throw my money at TCS.  I chose to purchase a TCS CS-105 command station based system.

Back to the subject at hand:

It seems logical for any club that is using Digitrax or NCE, mainly due to inertia and knowing those systems for years, to stay with those systems for the forseeable future, or at least until the system dies.  Only when they are faced with complete replacement may it makes sense to change "brands".  Even then the inertia and incumbant knowledge may cause the same brand to be kept when laying out replacement funds.  This seems to be the primary advantage to Digitrax and NCE these days, shear inertia.

Rio Grande.  The Action Road  - Focus 1977-1983

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Friday, July 12, 2024 12:53 AM

How many 5 Amp boosters did you have and what's your Circuit breaker situation?

  • Member since
    March 2019
  • 213 posts
Posted by reasearchhound on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 11:49 PM

Well, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones.
I am pleased with the results.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Tuesday, July 9, 2024 2:27 PM

WHile I have high hopes for Firecrown media's ownership and the announcement that the software is changing emminently. Right now and over the past year, I would not consider this forum to be particularly active such that monitoring it would give you a good idea of what is going on with model railroaders and DCC. 

 

  • Member since
    August 2015
  • 26 posts
Posted by ALEXANDER WOOD on Tuesday, July 9, 2024 1:26 PM

snjroy
Well, I have not done extensive research about this, but I can say from my own experience that the Digitrax Wifi component works very well. I use my smartphone+EngineDriver combo that will easily allow me to do advanced consisting. As for their quality control, I read this forum pretty much everyday and I have not seen any widespread complaints about that.

There are two issues here. First is that the LNWI is a very limited device that's poorly designed, as it can't attach to a home Wi-Fi network, and it can't release any of the four slots back to be re-used by other devices.

However, that all is missing the point, which is that Digitrax has decided to double down on Duplex over using Wi-Fi for their throttles. The LNWI just offers WiThrottle like JMRI does, which does not offer full system functionality like consisting and system configuration. Meanwhile, Digitrax's own throttles are not using Wi-Fi, and the systems are not Wi-Fi/Ethernet native like modern DCC systems are.

  • Member since
    November 2013
  • 2,771 posts
Posted by snjroy on Tuesday, July 9, 2024 7:54 AM

ALEXANDER WOOD

 Digitrax was the best DCC system bar none in 2007. Today, they have fallen behind. They have at least introduced new products, but their quality control and manuals seem to have gone down the drain, and they have moved away from interoperability like they offered with older hardware like the BDL168, SE8c, and DS64 towards a closed ecosystem that relies on the command station also being Digitrax. They have dug their heels in on Transponding, LocoNet, and Duplex over the now open standards of RailCom, LCC, and Wi-Fi.

Well, I have not done extensive research about this, but I can say from my own experience that the Digitrax Wifi component works very well. I use my smartphone+EngineDriver combo that will easily allow me to do advanced consisting. As for their quality control, I read this forum pretty much everyday and I have not seen any widespread complaints about that. 

Simon

  • Member since
    August 2015
  • 26 posts
Posted by ALEXANDER WOOD on Sunday, July 7, 2024 1:15 PM

jjdamnit
We gave our honest opinions of the systems we own and use along with recommendations about the two systems in question.

Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies.

If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.

The discussion was about switching to different DCC system. The OP needs to fix the problems with the layout and/or Digitrax system first, but there are two major reasons why TCS makes much more sense than NCE as an alternative:

1. The Digitrax throttles can be used with the TCS system, in addition to NCE throttles.

2. While existing NCE systems are "good enough" for many modelers, they have no value proposition over the almost identically priced TCS system that is far more modern and advanced.

Just to be clear, since people commonly twist what I'm saying, I'm not saying that everyone with NCE should trash their system and get the TCS system. What I'm saying is that for someone buying a new system today, there is no value proposition for NCE when the TCS system is about the same price. Other options are less expensive or have other unique features and may be worthwhile to look at.

reasearchhound
Most of the members have switched to using their smart phones as throttles. But a few of the old timers still prefer to use a throttle, and some of the younger members (12-14 years old) have parents who don't allow them to have smart phones yet.

I'd get a couple of TCS throttles or have people get their own. At the point that you're using mostly Wi-Fi throttles, it doesn't really matter who made the command station, other than consisting if you want to get way into the weeds on that.

richhotrain
It's hard to imagine a system superior to NCE's Advanced Consisting which can be easily done POM in just a few quick keystrokes.

TCS has all the features of NCE-style consisting plus more with command-station-based consisting. It is the first system to best NCE's consisting, which was NCE's last competitive advantage over other systems, since their throttle ease of use was matched by Digitrax in 2006, and their radio performance was beaten by TCS in 2020 (and previously by European systems).

Renegade1c is spot on in virtually everything, including LocoNet, throttles, and consisting.

There is no reason for current NCE users to upgrade to the new NCE system. The upgraded performance would really only apply to very large club and modular layouts, but even then they'd be better off just upgrading to TCS instead.

The TCS UWT-100 is the evolution of the Wangrow/NCE MasterCab/ProCab, just with 25 years of technology advancement to miniaturize the throttle properly to the dimensions of a normal human hand.

richhotrain
There was a guy who no longer inhabits this forum who owned an ESU Cab Control 50310 and had no end of troubles with it. That was a few years ago, so I had to go searching for the exact model. As I read some reviews, some people seem to like the system, so maybe it was the guy's fault that he didn't know how to operate it. But, at the time, I had convinced myself that it was a newer system that went astray trying to improve on existing systems.

ESU ECoS is a top-notch DCC system. It's beyond bizarre to say that a DCC system is bad because "a guy" couldn't get it to work properly. If that was how we judged DCC systems, we couldn't use DCC at all, because I'm sure there is "a guy" who has royally screwed up a Digitrax system, "a guy" who has royally screwed up an NCE system, etc.

IC_Tom
Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller.  They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative.  I also really love the little UT6D throttles.  All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future.

Digitrax was the best DCC system bar none in 2007. Today, they have fallen behind. They have at least introduced new products, but their quality control and manuals seem to have gone down the drain, and they have moved away from interoperability like they offered with older hardware like the BDL168, SE8c, and DS64 towards a closed ecosystem that relies on the command station also being Digitrax. They have dug their heels in on Transponding, LocoNet, and Duplex over the now open standards of RailCom, LCC, and Wi-Fi.

betamax
NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is.

I can't say whether NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, but they don't seem very reactive to what that customer base wants.

Digitrax and NCE, the two largest DCC companies in North America, currently exist purely due to market inertia, and not because of the merits of their product offerings.

Meanwhile, TCS is absolutely in lock step with what the North American operations-based market wants in a DCC system with a focus on throttle ergonomics, reliable wireless connectivity, the most robust consisting features of any system, and more.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 4:52 PM

Makes sense.

 

If they're all using their smart phones, then for the most part, all this discussion is somewhat moot. It doesn't matter what system you use. And if a member does want something different, they can buy the UWT, or build their own throttle and the club doesn't need to change anything. 

  • Member since
    March 2019
  • 213 posts
Posted by reasearchhound on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 3:56 PM

YoHo1975

Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it. 

 

That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it. 

 

Most of our members are now using their smart phones as throttles.

Also, at this point I don't want to muddy the waters any further by throwing another component into the mix.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 2:57 PM

AEP528

 

 
YoHo1975

The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!

 

 

 

So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right? 

Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?

 

 I am well aware.

The TCS UWT-100 also can do 2 throttles at once. 

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 2:54 PM

Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it. 

 

That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it. 

  • Member since
    March 2019
  • 213 posts
Posted by reasearchhound on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 11:52 AM

YoHo1975

Good luck.

 

 

 

Thanks. It will be what it is. Personally I am voting to keep what we have - but update and improve it. I just don't think the issues we have are so serious and frequent that an entire replacement is needed, or desirable. But, as president I mainly just run the meeting - and I am just one vote out of the 12 on the board. Plus, if we voted to change systems, it would still need to be approved by the membership - though generally if the board recommends something, the membership generally agrees with it.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 11:15 AM

The protothrottle is also available for Digitrax(WiThrottle) if that type of throttle interests you. And there are a number of projects out there to build your own Withrottle based wifi throttle.

 

If you are into electronics/Arduino DIY projects, this one can be fun. There are versions from the most basic utility throttle to a full feature throttle.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 11:13 AM

Tophias

YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info.

Regards, Chris 

 

 

Chris,

https://www.tcsdcc.com/uwt-100

the TCS throttles have been out for a number of years now.

The Throttles are Wifi Throttles that support 2 modes. 

Mode 1 is Withrottle. So it works the same as a smart phone running engine driver. To use it with Digitrax, you would need either JMRI running with WiThrottle. Or an LNWI. 

Turn the throttle on. Choose the proper Wifi network and it will connect just as a Cell phone would. 

Mode 2 is LCC mode. That mode works with DCC systems that support LCC. At this point that means TCS, DIY systems or, sometime later this year, the new MRC Next system. 

 

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,879 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 11:04 AM

IC_Tom

 

 
YoHo1975

I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this.

Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train.

The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!

 

The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along. 

 

 

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine.  It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.

 

I don't want to stop you from having your opinion. And I am certainly disagreeing with you, but I want to explain why and where I'm coming from on it. Like I said, I was being blunt, but if the goal is to give the OP good advice, then I feel like explaining where the opinion comes from.

I was being honest in my perception that I don't hear people describe Digitrax as a company that does good ergonomics. SO hearing other thoughts on it is a good thing. 

 

Part of why I have a strong opinion is that the TCS team explained their decisions to potential customers openly on open platforms and got feedback on it. They took that feedback and made changes. Which I think it critical to good design. I like what they came up with, but even if I didn't personally care for the design, knowing that did that tells me a lot. 

  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 327 posts
Posted by AEP528 on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 9:48 AM

YoHo1975

The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!

 

So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right? 

Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?

  • Member since
    June 2022
  • 96 posts
Posted by IC_Tom on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 9:20 AM

YoHo1975

I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this.

Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train.

The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!

 

The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along. 

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine.  It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.

  • Member since
    March 2011
  • From: Westford MA
  • 533 posts
Posted by Tophias on Wednesday, July 3, 2024 8:38 AM

YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info.

Regards, Chris 

Subscriber & Member Login

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

Users Online

There are no community member online

Search the Community

ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT
Model Railroader Newsletter See all
Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox!