Neither.
My advice?
Switch to NCE.
Rich
Alton Junction
Find and fix the issue you have. My club has been using Digitrax for over 20 years and don't have issues with it "shutting down". Exactly what do mean by shutting down? Is it track power turning off? Or is the Command station turning off? A heat issue due to the location of the CS and boosters maybe needing better air flow?
Power supply to the CS starting to fail? I've seen this on Digitrax and NCE.
Don't switch to an inferior product like MRC.
Peter
If you are going to switch, I would second Rich's suggestion to go with NCE.
Having said that, I really think that Peter has the right approach. There are literally thousands of Digitrax systems working properly around the world. If most of them had shut down problems, Digitrax would have been out of business long ago.
Have you contacted Digitrax directly? If not, I strongly urge you to do so.
Maybe all you need to do is to divide the layout into smaller blocks and add a booster or two.
Something you might also want to check is the current draw of each locomotive. If, for whatever reason, several of the locomotives are drawing more power than usual, you may be inadvertently overloading the system.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Sorty all - total brain fart this morning. MRC is NOT an option. Meant to type NCE instead. That'll teach me to try and post too early in the morning.
Sorry all - total brain fart this morning. MCR is NOT an option. Meant to type NCE instead. That'll teach me to try and post too early in the morning - before my first cup of coffee.
"NCR" will buy you a cash register, which is NOT any good at operating DCC. "NCE", OTOH, is very good at it.
That said, I agree with the suggestion that tracking down the reason for the shut downs is more important than switching DCC systems, at this point in time.
Q: Was there a layout change that took place right before your club started experiencing these shut downs?
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hello All,
reasearchhound...we have had some issues with it shutting down during periods of prolonged heavy use...The current thinking is it might simply be human error from those members using the throttles accidentally hitting the shut down button. That function has now been disabled...but we haven't tested the layout to see if the problem has been "fixed".
A few troubleshooting questions (along with the others posted):
If the components are truly faulty no one will want to buy them.
Even if the components are fully functional you probably won't get anywhere close to what you expect on the used market.
reasearchhoundWe have a string (SIC) contingent of anti Digitrax members who feel we should abandon it...
What other factors are influencing them to abandon an existing system?
CNR378My club has been using Digitrax for over 20 years and don't have issues with it "shutting down".Don't switch to an inferior product like MRC.
reasearchhound...many members are now using their phones as throttles...
Are they satisfied with this solution or is it fueling the anti-Digitrax conversation?
reasearchhoundHopefully this topic doesn't open up a HUGE can of worms...
As Albert Einstein was quoted as saying, "The only way to get all the worms back in the can, is to use a bigger can."
If you decide to switch systems I also recommend NCE.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
What exactly do you mean by "shut down"? More details would help.
Probable cause is overheating of the booster. They need air flow around the heat sink, and if they are being overloaded, they will shut down to protect themselves from overheating.
Are the boosters contained within an enclosure which limits air flow? That could cause issues over time when in heavy use.
Maybe they need a fan to move air across the heatsink(s).
Spreading the load across additional boosters is another solution.
Scrapping the entire DCC system would be a large expense in both time and money. Finding the cause and solving that will save a lot of money, with a nominal cost in terms of spending time to figure out the cause and solutions. Adding a couple of additional boosters would probably be less costly in terms of time and effort too.
Yup. An RRamp meter is a lot cheaper than a lot of new DCC stuff.
"Investigate before you invest."
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Hi reasearchhound,
I would point out one other reason for solving the problem instead of scrapping the system. There is the possibility that the problem lies outside of the DCC system. As I suggested, perhaps the locomotives are drawing more power than expected, or there is some sort of problem with the track and/or feeders. You could spend a fortune on a new system only to have the problem recur.
I suggest that you create a list of possible causes and eliminate them one by one in a methodical manner. Then you can decide whether or not to switch to NCE (which personally I would be in favour of simply because it is a much nicer system to operate).
Sounds like overheating to me but could be user error. If you change out your system you could just go with a newer Digitrax. The real difference I think personaly between NCE and Digitrax are the throttles. I personaly like the Digitrax as you can get old school feal throttles and very simple ones. NCE does some advanced stuff easier so it boils down to what kind of members do you have and what do they all have at home also if only a test setup.
Hi Dan,
Suggestion: You might want to edit your subject title since MRC is not in the discussion.
I was an alumni member of my old college's model railroad club for a while. Everytime they had an open house, the layout would shut down repeatedly. From what I could work out, it was underpowered. I made a point when I built my home layout to avoid that so it is (I'm sure) overpowered, with three boosters spread out around the layout.
FWIW I started with Digitrax, but found their radio control system to be very hit-and-miss, even with multiple receivers. I switched to CVP, and can operate from anywhere in the basement with just one receiver.
I am not the electronics guy in our club so all I can tell you is that during periods of prolonged heavy use the operating system simply shuts down so that everything stops. Overheating does not seem to be the issue, it has been extensively checked into (although the way things stop operating would seem indicate that could be the problem). Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles, or that more boosters are needed.
What I really want to know is if there are specific pluses or minuses between the two operating systems that would indicate one is far superior than the other.
reasearchhoundCurrent thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles,
Seems to me that you should be able to disable this feature.
reasearchhound I am not the electronics guy in our club so all I can tell you is that during periods of prolonged heavy use the operating system simply shuts down so that everything stops. Overheating does not seem to be the issue, it has been extensively checked into (although the way things stop operating would seem indicate that could be the problem). Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles, or that more boosters are needed.
Are you monitoring LocoNet with JMRI or another tool? If it's user error with the throttles, that will tell you right away. And even if it's something else, LocoNet may still give you a clue.
reasearchhound What I really want to know is if there are specific pluses or minuses between the two operating systems that would indicate one is far superior than the other.
reasearchhound We have a string contingent of anti Digitrax members who feel we should abandon it,
the MD&WV club has been using Digitrax without such problems for decades during long week long open houses. The club has air conditioning and it does have fans behind the boosters
the layout has lost track power for no apparent reason. our best guess is people inadvertently hitting the wrong buttons on the new controllers. There are menu items for turning it on/off with the DT602d controllers. Power is quickly restored when using those options
section 5.4 of the DT602d manual says to press Power/Back key to turn track power back on
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I think you have a short in the track that is caused by a gap being spanned as it heats up. Seen a gap compleatly close on mine by a temporary short that finally permanintly shorted, only way I would have ever found it.
hon30critterThere is the possibility that the problem lies outside of the DCC system. You could spend a fortune on a new system only to have the problem recur.
As the old saying goes, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
No matter the DCC system- -if the problem(s) is/are not resolved- -buying a new system won't cure it.
reasearchhoundI am not the electronics guy in our club...
Perhaps they need to be included in this discussion.
Other things to consider...
Do the members bring and run their own locomotives and/or rolling stock?
Are there club standards for locomotives and rolling stock?
If there are standards, how are locomotives and rolling stock inspected to make sure they conform to club standards?
reasearchhoundWhat I really want to know is if there are specific pluses or minuses between the two operating systems that would indicate one is far superior than the other.
That question might be better answered by your members.
I suggest a survey of the members might be needed.
Some questions to ask:
Some general running questions to determine which system might fit the clubs needs...
When consisting (MU-ing) locomotives how does the club prefer to handle this:
A feature of Digitrax throttles- -as you may know- -is two (2) throttle knobs so the user can control two locomotives from the same throttle.
Some people find the old Digitrax throttles are too bulky and cumbersome while the newer throttles have better ergonomics.
Another reason I chose NCE was the ergonomics of their throttles and a thumb wheel over the knobs on Digitrax throttles.
The way NCE handles advance consisting makes it very easy to make and break consists for switching or adding helpers.
Does or will the club use automated running software, ie JMRI Decoder Pro, or other software?
If using wireless capabilities, understand for NCE throttles use a proprietary radio system and to add smartphones or tablets a WiFi interface is necessary.
To say which system is superior over the other is like the "Ford vs. Chevy" debate.
Both have their strengths and weaknesses according to their devotees and detractors.
There is no one simple answer.
By considering the questions I have posed- -along with others, and any you might think of- -the club can come to a compromise that works for the members.
At our club, we have a Digitrax system and the guys divided the layout into 6 blocks. In addition to boosters, we have auto shut-off devices for each block. That way, if there is a short in one block, it does not affect the other locos in the other blocks. I did not install these myself, but I'm guessing that it's a pretty easy install if you kept your wiring clean (i.e., using one bus).
Simon
snjroy At our club, we have a Digitrax system and the guys divided the layout into 6 blocks. In addition to boosters, we have auto shut-off devices for each block. That way, if there is a short in one block, it does not affect the other locos in the other blocks. I did not install these myself, but I'm guessing that it's a pretty easy install if you kept your wiring clean (i.e., using one bus). Simon
Agreed, I should have written "a bus" instead of "one bus".
snjroy Agreed, I should have written "a bus" instead of "one bus". Simon
maxman reasearchhound Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles,
reasearchhound
Current thinking seems to be that users are inadvertently turning the system off via their throttles,
Yes, I'm not clear how they could turn the DCC system off from their throttles - is it a function button or something on the throttle or ??
The more I read and reread the OP it occurs to me they are using one booster with no power districts.
reasearchhound...we have had some issues with it shutting down during periods of prolonged heavy use...
That would explain the entire layout shutting down.
It seems that there are two (2) components to this thread:
As we all agree Digitrax DCC systems- -when properly installed- -is a robust system, and replacing it with a different manufacturer might not cure their issues.
If the membership is dissatisfied with the functions, ergonomics and/or features of Digitrax that is a separate issue.
Until we hear back from the OP it's pure speculation on all our parts.
It's quite easy to turn the system off with EngineDriver (a cellphone application), via Wifi.
Sometimes, speculation is all that we can engage in because of the fact situation. I have gone back over this entire thread, and I find a lot of good advice about possible reasons for the shutdown, Digitrax versus NCE, and the recommended division of the layout into power districts. The main issue here is the shutdown of the entire layout during prolonged periods of use.
To me, the most likely cause of the shutdown is the overheating of the booster. If the cause of the shutdown is a member pressing a button on his throttle, something is very wrong there. On my home layout, powered by an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro, I have never once inadvertently shutdown down my layout.
richhotrainTo me, the most likely cause of the shutdown is the overheating of the booster.
I agree...
richhotrainOn my home layout, powered by an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro, I have never once inadvertently shutdown down my layout.
I am not familiar with the Digitrax method of shutting down the entire layout- -cutting booster power.
After reviewing the NCE Power Pro System Reference Manual; pg. 61, a complete shutdown- -cutting booster power- -requires three (3) distinct and deliberate presses of the "Emergency Stop Button".
reasearchhoundThe current thinking is it might simply be human error from those members using the throttles accidentally hitting the shut down button.
That seems unlikely.
snjroyIt's quite easy to turn the system off with EngineDriver (a cellphone application), via Wifi.
But according to the OP...
reasearchhoundThat function has now been disabled and many members are now using their phones as throttles but we haven't tested the layout to see if the problem has been "fixed".
If the "Shut Down" function was disabled are you speculating that the WiFi throttles override the command station?
richhotrainIf the cause of the shutdown is a member pressing a button on his throttle, something is very wrong there.
I'm of the opinion- -like others- -it's a thermal shutdown caused by either poor airflow to the booster(s) or amperage overloading of the system.
CNR378A heat issue due to the location of the CS and boosters maybe needing better air flow?
betamaxProbable cause is overheating of the booster.
rrebellSounds like overheating to me...
wjstixEverytime they had an open house, the layout would shut down repeatedly. From what I could work out, it was underpowered.
I may have missed it, but as I re-read through the entire thread, I don't believe that the OP ever mentioned the specific Digitrax system that is being used at his club.
I'll toss a cat among the pigeons. Some would argue that Digitrax and NCE are both old technology - 30+ year old technology. The OP might want to widen his horizons and think about TCS system - they offer a lower end starter system LT-50 and a higher end system based on the the CS-105 + a wifi throttle. These are newly developed systems just within the last year or two and eveyone who has used one say they are very easy to use, easier to do consisting than NCE. Digitrax you need cheat cards to operate - ask me how I know. Digitrax was designed by electrical enginers for people with engineer brains. I don't have an engineer brain although I do have a masters degree in science!
There are other systems out there to consider than the big two that have been around for decades.
I've had a Digitrax system for over 25 years and people had to feed me with a spoon to operate. I've tossed my lot with TCS now that I have layout just about ready to operate.
https://www.tcsdcc.com/
The TCS wifi throttles are widely praised as being much nicer to operate than those that come with the Digitrax and NCE systems. In fact people love the throttles so much, they are using them with Digitrax and NCE systems.
Meow!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Oh boy. First of all, you are asking the wrong question. I could go on for pages about Digitrax vs. NCE, but that question is missing the forest for the trees. Digitrax and NCE, the two largest DCC companies in North America, currently exist purely due to market inertia, and not because of the merits of their product offerings.
I think the first action your club needs to take is to get the existing system 100% functional before switching to anything else. But if you want to switch to a better system, the question is not Digitrax vs. NCE, it is what DCC system to switch to. It is possible to turn track power off on Digitrax via PWR >>> N- but no one should be doing that during an op session, and if that is the problem, then you've got a member problem as to why people are turning the track power off when they are not authorized to do so.
First, in terms of switching from one system to another, there are people who have switched one way or the other for good reasons, including from a 100% functional Digitrax systems who have switched from one to another for well thought out, specific features, like more reliable radio throttles or double-ended consisting. Then there are people who have switched for bad reasons, like they didn't bother to RTFM, and think that running away from their problems with their current DCC system will magically solve all their problems. Before you even THINK of switching, get your existing system 100% functional, and have specific reasons and features that you want to switch for, not something that you're running from.
Secondly, Digitrax partially unfairly has a reputation as being hard to use, and NCE has an over-hyped reputation for being easy to use. Digitrax's original throttle was hard to use, due to the cost of chips at the time, and the nature of their LocoNet network, compared to NCE's polled serial bus. Digitrax matched NCE's ease of use in 2006 with the DT400 series throttles, but they've since backslid a bit with some bizarre UI/UX design choices in the DT602D and UT6D throttles. Meanwhile, NCE is selling a mediocre and overpriced system that's fundamentally been frozen in time for over 25 years.
Digitrax's LocoNet architecture is far superior to NCE's polled serial bus architecture. NCE has gotten a reputation for being reliable because when you barely change anything for over 25 years, you can have a pretty stable system. Digitrax was hands down the best system from 2006 until they made the disastrous move to Duplex radio. More recently, they have made their accessories more of an ecosystem play and have dug their heels in on LocoNet, Transponding, and Duplex over the open standards of LCC, RailCom, and Wi-Fi. Their product quality, manuals, and general execution on a lot of things seem to have gone from the best in the business to troublesome at best. Digitrax's scheme for powering accessories and LocoNet has never made sense, and ironically, LocoNet licensees in Europe have fixed a lot of the electrical architectural problems with LocoNet in their designs, separating LNet-T and LNet-B.
Third, it is 2024, and there is a good argument to be had that the DCC system doesn't really matter that much, since with JMRI WiThrottle, the TCS UWTs, and ProtoThrottle (if you're into that type of operation), all the DCC system really needs to do is function as a packet converter from serial to DCC. I'd argue that there is a lot more that you can get out of a DCC system, but with JMRI WiThrottle and a TCS UWT, you get an almost idential experience on a Digitrax system as an NCE system as with any other.
The full-fledged DCC systems that people should be looking at in 2024 are:
1. TCS CS-105
2. YaMoRC YD7001 (probably not for a club)
3. ESU Cab Control or ECoS
4. Roco Z21
5. MRC Nexxt (when it comes out)
For smaller home layouts, I'd also add:
1. TCS LT-50
2. SPROG
3. DCC-EX
4. Digitrax DCS52
When you look at modern DCC systems from Digikeijs, YaMoRC, ESU, Roco, TCS, and others, you see a pattern. All of them are three core components that legacy systems don't.
1. Wi-Fi/Ethernet connectivity
2. RailCom support
3. Multi-bus compatibility
Right now the CS-105 is THE premium system to beat, and it's great for clubs since it supports most legacy proprietary throttle systems, including Digitrax, NCE, CVP v4, Lenz, and soon MRC, including the various radio systems for each. Although it's not THAT different from using a legacy proprietary DCC system today where you have TCS UWTs on WiThrottle, anyone who cares about their throttle experience will use the Wi-Fi based throttle of their choice (or ProtoThrottle if it works for that layout and ops scheme), and people who don't will stay on legacy proprietary throttles, which is fine. What you will find is that as time goes on, no one really cares about the legacy proprietary throttles, but the compatibility will get you to people agreeing to adopt it, as it's basically just the command station and a throttle or two, not replacing the command station and ALL the throttles (although again, Wi-Fi throttles still work with any system via WiThrottle).
Out of the modern systems, you will notice that all of them are European except for the TCS CS-105. The CS-105, while pricey, is the only system that has bested NCE's consisting along with focusing on an operation-first North American approach to a modern DCC system.
NCE's main competitive advantages of relative ease of use, mediocre radio throttles (while the other options like Digitrax Duplex were terrible), and double-ended consisting have been chipped away over the years by Digitrax in 2006, TCS in 2020, and TCS again in 2022, respectively have left NCE without any competitive advantage combined with ultra-premium pricing. TCS is a premium priced product with premium features and performance.
The question that NCE is going to have to answer is what their value proposition is when the TCS system does everything NCE does, including NCE's last remaining competitive advantage of consisting, far better than NCE for all of $30 more, with the PH-5R at $700 and the CS-105/UWT-100 at $730. Digitrax doesn't need to match TCS feature wise, as their value proposition is that they are relatively cheap, especially at the entry level.
I've heard the logic of buying what people around you have, or what you have locally available for throttles, but over the years, people have gotten more throttles, and now that's largely irrelevant with Wi-Fi throttles and everyone having a throttle in their pocket all the time if needed.
I 100% agree with Riogrande5761.
Our club has had the CS-105 since beta. We also had an NCE PH Pro system. Just in case the CS-105 beta didn't work out. That proved unnecessary. We are not looking back.
We currently have the CS-105, an additional B-106 booster. 4 UWT-100s, A UWT-50e and 2 legacy NCE hammerheads and a WFD-30 for Withrottle support though we plan to replace that with the new MRC device in the coming months.
The CS-105 is THE BEST DCC system in 2024 in the club's experience. Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
A few reasons to consider it.
Also as noted the TCS UWT throttles are really really slick. Even before we switched to the CS-105 we were using the UWTs on our Legacy MRC system as well as the NCE. Everyone in the club prefers them.
Also, it's kinda funny that you mistakenly had MRC in the title, and based on all the digitrax and NCE recommendations in the thread, it might be that not everyone is aware, but MRC is launching a brand new system soonish. It is going to us LCC just as the TCS products do. And it's going to include some integration points for legacy prodigy users.
The first products out will be an LCC throttle and a new adapter board that will convert from LCC and Withrottle to the MRC bus. Either direction. SO we're looking at that to replace our WFD-30 which has more limitations than we'd like. And since it's all LCC it is 100% compatible with the CS-105.
Don't need the MRC support, but we do have some legacy MRC throttles so it will be interesting.
There are other systems out there that are more newer with more features than NCE and Digitrax. They are European. the ESU ECOS system in particular is very popular. I'm not personally a fan, but I'd really recommend looking at other options than Digitrax and NCE. There are many more options now with US support.
When I was a club member many of the members did not have a lot of extra money for the newest and best, don't know how much this has changed but needs to be considered.
In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system.
YoHo1975 ... Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
... Digitrax and NCE make ok systems and have for decades. They also haven't added new features in decades.
Really?
Speaking only about my NCE system, they have upgraded my Pro Cabs to the latest version software, which is good when you want to recall more than 2 engines.
I really like the ease of consisting and use.
Have the Powerhouse Pro Radio system with 2 additional boosters. Works well no complaints..
Neal
nealknows Speaking only about my NCE system, they have upgraded my Pro Cabs to the latest version software, which is good when you want to recall more than 2 engines. I really like the ease of consisting and use. Have the Powerhouse Pro Radio system with 2 additional boosters. Works well no complaints.. Neal
I mean in the past 13 years that I've been with my current club, I've never used a system that didn't support more than 2 loco recall.
I would not consider that a big feature. Or rather, why did it take so long?
Obviously if you have a system you like and are happy with. Then that's great.
But the OP asked about a comparison if they should chose to upgrade. And I think that should include more options.
For example. I think the TCS system would be far more compelling as an upgrade for the OP than the NCE.
Dunno, I have had an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system for 20 years now, and I cannot identify a single weakness.
What have you compared it to?
richhotrain In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system. Rich
My hope is that the board votes to stay with Digitrax, but upgrade it with bigger (and a few additional) boosters. But I am only one vote out of twelve.
I want to express my extreme appreciation to all of you who responded - some of you went above and beyond with your detailed and comprehensive replies. And although I didn't respond to each one, rest assured I read each one and I'm sharing them with the other board members, especially our electronics guys.
richhotrain Neal, I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say Power Cab concerning the upgrade to recall more than two locomotives? Rich
Neal, I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say Power Cab concerning the upgrade to recall more than two locomotives?
Rich,
I use my Pro Cabs during operating sessions and with the latest Pro Cab upgradesI can recall more than 2 engines. One of the guys who runs trains during the op sessions does it. My latest Pro Cab is version 1.71
nealknows richhotrain Neal, I am a bit confused. Did you mean to say Power Cab concerning the upgrade to recall more than two locomotives? Rich Rich, I use my Pro Cabs during operating sessions and with the latest Pro Cab upgradesI can recall more than 2 engines. One of the guys who runs trains during the op sessions does it. My latest Pro Cab is version 1.71 Neal
The original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing?
richhotrainThe original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing?
With my NCE Power Pro system; Radio V1.5B, the factory set default number of recalls is two (2).
In the Power Pro System Reference Manual; pg. 65, SET UP THE CAB PARAMETERS (Shortcut = PROG 6) it states:
NUMBER OF RECALLSThis adjusts the number of recall "slots" that are cycled through when the RECALL key is pressed. Enter a number of Recalls from 1 - 6 and press ENTER. This can be set differently for each cab. (factory default is 2) Press Enter to skip this parameter.
During the initial setup of my system upon reading this, I set my cab to recall the maximum number of locomotives of 6.
jjdamnit Hello All, richhotrain The original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing? With my NCE Power Pro system; Radio V1.5B, the factory set default number of recalls is two (2). In the Power Pro System Reference Manual; pg. 65, SET UP THE CAB PARAMETERS (Shortcut = PROG 6) it states: NUMBER OF RECALLSThis adjusts the number of recall "slots" that are cycled through when the RECALL key is pressed. Enter a number of Recalls from 1 - 6 and press ENTER. This can be set differently for each cab. (factory default is 2) Press Enter to skip this parameter. During the initial setup of my system upon reading this, I set my cab to recall the maximum number of locomotives of 6. Hope this helps.
richhotrain The original ProCab does allow the user to recall as many as 6 locomotives. What am I missing?
On the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2.
So, I am confused about Neal's statement that a Pro Cab upgrade now permits a recall capacity of 6 since the Pro Cab has always provided for a recall of 6.
richhotrainOn the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2.
With the latest upgrade firmware of V1.65, the Power Cab can now be programmed with a recall stack of 2 to 6 locomotives.
tstage richhotrain On the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2. Rich, With the latest upgrade firmware of V1.65, the Power Cab can now be programmed with a recall stack of 2 to 6 locomotives. Tom
richhotrain On the other hand, the Power Cab only has a recall of 2.
richhotrain Dunno, I have had an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro wireless system for 20 years now, and I cannot identify a single weakness. Rich
YoHo1975 What have you compared it to?
richhotrainTom, thanks for that info. So, then, Neal must be referring to a Power Cab upgrade, not a Power Cab upgrade.
So, is he or isn't he??
riogrande5761I'll toss a cat among the pigeons...
In my perception- -your suggestion was intended to obfuscate rather than educate.
reasearchhound...I am only one vote out of twelve.
To me, this seems to be a small group of enthusiasts that just want to run trains free of issues after investing in a robust DCC system- -especially when putting their best foot forward during their annual open house running- -no matter the current technology.
richhotrainI have no need to compare the NCE PH-Pro to any other system since it has operated flawlessly for over 20 years, and I cannot identify a single weakness. When I read about other DCC systems and their features, I see nothing that I want or need that is not already provided by my NCE system.
I've had my NCE PH-Pro 5 Amp wireless system since switching in 2012- -from the dead-end Bachmann Dynamis- -with no complaints.
There are many "modern" features that have been added to DCC systems- -LocoNet, RailCom, LCC, JMRI PowerPro/PanelPro, along other "feedback/identification" DCC control systems.
If I wanted any of these "improvements" I would have switched the the Märklin control system with Drei Gleiss.
Like richotrain I don't see a need to upgrade when what I have works for my requirements.
The OP asked the great folks on these forums two (2) separate questions...
jjdamnitIt seems that there are two (2) components to this thread: 1) The shutting down of the layout due to an undiagnosed cause or causes. 2) The dissatisfaction of the members with the Digitrax system.
Remember, the club membership is seeking answers to their existing Digitrax systems failures, and balancing the cost vs. benefit of switching to another DCC system.
Yes, I agree there are DCC systems that integrate the newer features that have graciously highlighted.
If you just want your system to work...no matter the manufacturer...
Solve the problems you are faced with now and then consider future options based on cost.
maxman richhotrain Tom, thanks for that info. So, then, Neal must be referring to a Power Cab upgrade, not a Power Cab upgrade. So, is he or isn't he??
richhotrain Tom, thanks for that info. So, then, Neal must be referring to a Power Cab upgrade, not a Power Cab upgrade.
Saying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today.
The OP and his club need to get the Digitrax system and their layout wiring working properly first. Then, think about upgrades if they are still desired. Switching the command station and throttles to something else isn't going to fix electrical or booster problems.
If after fixing the problem an upgrade is desired, the CS-105 is the logical choice, since all of the Digitrax hardware except the command station itself can come along for the ride, greatly reducing the up-front cost, and then people can switch throttles as they see fit (or not).
snjroyReally?
ALEXANDER WOODSaying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today.
The OP asked for opinions...
reasearchhoundWould like to hear some of you guys on your opinions on the two systems and whether one is really that much better than the other, and why.
We gave our honest opinions of the systems we own and use along with recommendations about the two systems in question.
Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies.
If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.
There are many members of these forums that still use DC control. (I'm sure those members are laughing at this post because of the divisiveness of the various DCC system devotees.)
When returning to this great hobby in 2013 I began with DC on my 4'x8' pike.
I quickly realized the limitations of DC and with my particular needs DCC would better suit my individual situation.
My first DCC system was the dead-end Bachmann Dynamis system, which I quickly outgrew.
I'm a "lone wolf" modeler so I chose the system based on my needs not interoperability with a club and the "newest and best" technologies- -simply what worked for me.
As an example...
In the physical environment I work in smartphones fail and can be irreparably damaged.
I have been ridiculed for my flip phone with MIL-STD-810H spec, but when I need to make a call or send and receive texts or photos at work it gets the job done.
Sometimes "older" IS "better".
When I need to utilize smartphone technologies I have a tablet- -including acting as a throttle for my NCE DCC system with a WiFi interface utilizing JMRI DecoderPro.
We all agree that the root cause of the OPs clubs problems need to be addressed first.
After that, it's up to the members to decide if "newer" is in fact "better" or will the "older" meet their needs.
In my second post, I posed two (2) questions to present to the club memebers...
jjdamnit•Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet? •If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle?
If the members are not comfortable with using their smartphones and/or tablets and prefer using the manufacturer's throttles that they don't have on their own systems that's an additional expense the club has to incur.
We can pontificate over the merits of our own personal choices but in the end it's up to the club members to balance cost vs. technological needs.
jjdamnit Hello All, ALEXANDER WOOD Saying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today. The OP asked for opinions... reasearchhound Would like to hear some of you guys on your opinions on the two systems and whether one is really that much better than the other, and why. We gave our honest opinions of the systems we own and use along with recommendations about the two systems in question. Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies. If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade. There are many members of these forums that still use DC control. (I'm sure those members are laughing at this post because of the divisiveness of the various DCC system devotees.) When returning to this great hobby in 2013 I began with DC on my 4'x8' pike. I quickly realized the limitations of DC and with my particular needs DCC would better suit my individual situation. My first DCC system was the dead-end Bachmann Dynamis system, which I quickly outgrew. I'm a "lone wolf" modeler so I chose the system based on my needs not interoperability with a club and the "newest and best" technologies- -simply what worked for me. As an example... In the physical environment I work in smartphones fail and can be irreparably damaged. I have been ridiculed for my flip phone with MIL-STD-810H spec, but when I need to make a call or send and receive texts or photos at work it gets the job done. Sometimes "older" IS "better". When I need to utilize smartphone technologies I have a tablet- -including acting as a throttle for my NCE DCC system with a WiFi interface utilizing JMRI DecoderPro. We all agree that the root cause of the OPs clubs problems need to be addressed first. After that, it's up to the members to decide if "newer" is in fact "better" or will the "older" meet their needs. In my second post, I posed two (2) questions to present to the club memebers... jjdamnit •Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet? •If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle? If the members are not comfortable with using their smartphones and/or tablets and prefer using the manufacturer's throttles that they don't have on their own systems that's an additional expense the club has to incur. We can pontificate over the merits of our own personal choices but in the end it's up to the club members to balance cost vs. technological needs. Hope this helps.
ALEXANDER WOOD Saying that you have xyz system and it's good enough for what you do is both true, and not particularly relevant to someone looking to upgrade or buy a new system today.
reasearchhound Would like to hear some of you guys on your opinions on the two systems and whether one is really that much better than the other, and why.
jjdamnit •Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet? •If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle?
Most of the members have switched to using their smart phones as throttles. But a few of the old timers still prefer to use a throttle, and some of the younger members (12-14 years old) have parents who don't allow them to have smart phones yet.
So here is the thing. If you are happy with your current system, great. But this topic is about if someone was looking to buy a system or to upgrade one. I've seen several posts where people say they are happy with their current system. We get that. Repeat it umpteen times. But if someone were to go layout money on a new system, they might be happier with a different system.
TCS is a very recently developed system. That means they have learned things from past systems and have improved upon them. Consististing is was rated as superior to NCE so that was one factor important to me.
riogrande5761 So here is the thing. If you are happy with your current system, great. But this topic is about if someone was looking to buy a system or to upgrade one. I've seen several posts where people say they are happy with their current system. We get that. Repeat it umpteen times. But if someone were to go layout money on a new system, they might be happier with a different system. TCS is a very recently developed system. That means they have learned things from past systems and have improved upon them. Consististing is was rated as superior to NCE so that was one factor important to me.
First, if a number of people reply that they own a particular DCC system and are perfectly satisfied with it, that is telling, so it is meaningful.
Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example.
riogrande5761Consististing is was rated as superior to NCE so that was one factor important to me.
Well, trying to stay out of this discussion.
But I am curious who rated it superior.
The UWT uses something called "in cab consisting", which appears similar to NCE but doesn't involve the command station. I am not certain, but I am guessing that CV 19 in the decoder could be used to communicate between the controller and the loco. Again I am guesing about that.
But I question what happens when the owner of the cab goes home.
And what happens when someone else wants to operate a particular consist with his own controller?
My current opinion is that yes, it is a new way of consisting, but it possibly just opens up another can of worms.
It's hard to imagine a system superior to NCE's Advanced Consisting which can be easily done POM in just a few quick keystrokes.
One thing to note that has not been mentioned is obsolescence. If you have tried to buy an NCE system recently they have been rather difficult to find especially the larger systems. Because they have not changed their system in 25 years they are struggling to find parts to manufacture their system. This also could delay manufactuter repairs. I believe this is partially why Digitrax has come out with newer models of boosters, command stations, throttles, etc. so as to not face part obsolescense. Electronic parts go obsolete at absurd rates these days, 1 to 2 years at most.
I personnally use Digitrax because of Loconet, however, I have a 50/50 mix of digitrax and RRcirkits products connected to Loconet. I think it wouldn't be much of a stretch to switch to an LCC based system such as the TCS CS-105. I have a pretty involved layout which includes block detection and signalling and a full dispatchers panel all running on loconet. Much of what I have can't be done with a polled network like NCE uses.
There are many things I like about digitrax and many things I despise. I'm not too happy with new throttles and their bugs and their loss of communication on the regular (especially at the club). I do love loconet and the endless prosibilities it provides. LCC is more powerful but I'm probably not going to switch unless I have to rebuild my layout.
Back to my original point. NCE needs a major design update to overcome obsolescence, If you can't get chips you cant build the system or fix it.
Digitrax has noticed this but I don't think their QC is the same as it once was.
TCS has the newest system on the block and its what I would go with if I were to switch systems. It's on the pricey side but its likely to be around a while and they have great support and it works well, especially the wireless.
Speaking of wireless, wifi is a great choice as it is a proven technology and they leverage industry advances instead of a propreitary system like NCE and Digitrax.
I have operated numerous layouts on NCE, Digitrax, MRC, EasyDCC, Lenz and TCS. As far as throttles go TCS and Protothrottles are my favorite. I don't have a protothrottle since is likes $600 to connect it to Digitrax system. As stated by other NCE just works and its stable.
I love NCE's consisting way more than Digitrax. I can't stand Digitrax universal consisting. It's garbage. I ended up using advanced consisting.
I hope this provides good view of both systems. It largely depends on the needs of the end users. I need Digitrax (and later maybe TCS) because of loconet/LCC. Other's needs may vary. I suggest created a list of needs and wants for your particular application and see which system meets the most of the needs/wants.
Colorado Front Range Railroad: http://www.coloradofrontrangerr.com/
Good post, Renegade. I hadn't considered electronic part obsolescence.
Over two years ago, I sent a Switch-8 to NCE for repair. After a fairly long wait, I call a few times to inquire about the repair. Each time, I was told that they were waiting for parts from their supplier. I never did get it back.
richhotrain Good post, Renegade. I hadn't considered electronic part obsolescence. Over two years ago, I sent a Switch-8 to NCE for repair. After a fairly long wait, I call a few times to inquire about the repair. Each time, I was told that they were waiting for parts from their supplier. I never did get it back. Rich
reasearchhound richhotrain In the end, my guess is that the club will resolve the booster issue and keep the current Digitrax system. Rich My hope is that the board votes to stay with Digitrax, but upgrade it with bigger (and a few additional) boosters. But I am only one vote out of twelve. I want to express my extreme appreciation to all of you who responded - some of you went above and beyond with your detailed and comprehensive replies. And although I didn't respond to each one, rest assured I read each one and I'm sharing them with the other board members, especially our electronics guys.
In fact, the only reason that NCE released a new system this year was because the original was now impossible to build.
jjdamnitOthers chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies. If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.
This is insulting and I kindly ask that you put some more effort into reading people's posts.
NOBODY has said ANYONES opinions were irrelevant.
All that's been done here is to point out that Digitrax and NCE are not the only game in town anymore. And that if the club is looking to upgrade, they should broaden their scope.
And then personal opinions on why that is the case were given.
I don't understand why providing personal opinions intended to give the OP new information would be considered bad.
Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet?•If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle? If the members are not comfortable with using their smartphones and/or tablets and prefer using the manufacturer's throttles that they don't have on their own systems that's an additional expense the club has to incur.
Do you prefer a throttle from the manufacturer or a smartphone or tablet?•If the clubs DCC system is the same as the one you use on your home layout would you want to use your personal throttle?
I would like to point out that this is no longer the correct list of options.
You don't only need to use the system throttles or use your phone.
You can use 3rd party Withrottle throttles. The big one is the TCS UWT100 and 50.
You can DIY your own Withrottle throttles for a very low cost.
In fact many people I know bring their TCS UWTs to use on club layouts. Very few prefer their smart phones now. Though we also make that available.
In the interest of providing information and context.
The TCS consisting system was designed specifically because the designers loved the way NCE consisting worked, but wanted to include specific improvements and that was combined with TCS's desire to reduce their number 1 source of support calls.
First to level set terms.
Digitrax has universal consisting which is their name for what I would generically call in station consisting. That means the base station retains the consist info. MRC calls this old consisting
Then it has Advanced consisting. This is generically called CV19 or NMRA consisting. This sets the consist bit in CV19. I do not recall if it sets the other CVs required for full consisting.
NCE only really has one type of consisting. it is CV19 consisting with in base station features.
So it sets CV19, but then retains information in the base station in order to give a more user friendly experience. So you can use the address of any loco in the consist to run the consist.
So, first, the number 1 support call that TCS receives on their decoders is users that have programmed a consist in CV19 and then completely forgotten they did so and so call angry that their engines aren't working. This is true even for NCE users. People forget to clear consists regularly.
So TCS when making their own system addressed this.
The TCS UWT throttles have 2 different ways they create consists depending on the mode they are in.
If they are in WiThrottle mode, then they create what are called In Throttle consists. That means that the throttle itself links the locomotives together and sends out individual signals. It clearly shows that the locomotives are in a consist even after turned off and back on. And the engine will run like normal for anyone else.
If the throttle is in LCC mode and thus connected to an LCC DCC system, THEN the Throttle uses what I'll call Universal consisting with NCE UI.
Basically it's an in base station consist, but has all the same features as NCE where you can select any engine number and operate the consist. Any individual locomotive will operate as normal if on another layout.
The TCS also supports CV19 consisting, but doesn't encourage it's use.
the TCS system is also has some slight functionality improvements vs. NCE, but at its core it's the same user experience.
YoHo1975 In fact, the only reason that NCE released a new system this year was because the original was now impossible to build.
I'm interested in finding out about this. Please provide a link.
Thanks
maxman YoHo1975 In fact, the only reason that NCE released a new system this year was because the original was now impossible to build. I'm interested in finding out about this. Please provide a link. Thanks
https://tonystrains.com/product/nce-524-035-ph5-power-pro-5-amp-dcc-starter-system
YoHo1975 https://tonystrains.com/product/nce-524-035-ph5-power-pro-5-amp-dcc-starter-system
NCE offers a number of DCC systems, some are the lesser powered (2 amp) PowerCabs and others are the higher powered (5 and 10 amp) PH-Pro systems.
It seems apparent that NCE introduced these "updated follow on" systems to replace the original PH-Pro and PH-Pro wireless systems. Why? Probably because of the electronic parts shortages or the discontinuation of certain electronic parts, as previously discussed in this thread. Interestingly, most of the new systems are "temporarily" unavailable due to parts unavailabilty.
The upddated versions are expensive: $800 for the starter system versus $545 for the original version and $1,000 for the wireless system versus $702 for the original wireless version.
If someone already owns an NCE 5 amp PH-Pro system, I am not convinced that it is worthwhile to purchase the equivalent updated system. The main advantages of the new systems appear to be "improved program track circuit", "4x the memory, 4x the speed of previous systems", and "no complicated shutdown, just turn it off".
Regarding "improved program track circuit", I am guessing that the program track was juiced up to read sound decoders without a program track booster. But, if someone like me already has a booster installed, no big deal.
Regarding "4x the memory, 4x the speed of previous systems", OK that sounds cool, but I am not sure what that means without reading the manual that comes with the system. I have no issues with the memory or speed of my current 5 amp wireless system.
Regarding "no complicated shutdown, just turn it off", I am mystified. Isn't that all you have to do now? When I am done, I flip a switch and everything is powered down.
There are some other stated advantages, but nothing that really caught my attention.
Sorry, I didn't mean to post and run, but my day got quite busy yesterday.
Jim Scorse talked about it on a podcast. I think last year. Not sure if I'm allowed to reference it as it isn't a trains.com affiliated one.
The impression I got were that beyond replacing the db9 serial with USB, the upgrades were largely the consequence of moving to newer parts. Not per se' intentional.
He literally couldn't make the original product anymore as the parts were just not going to ever be made again post pandemic. So it was redesigned with chips that were available. And those chips were newer and more powerful.
I'd assume the program track feature just means it will do better at programming modern sound decoders.
As for the shut down thing. Yeah, I've never gone through the shut down sequence either. Perhaps we're putting the system at risk and didn't know?
Thanks, YoHo.
We probably need to wait for some product reviews to come out by users.
Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade.
But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship.
YoHo1975 Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade. But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship.
richhotrain YoHo1975 Yeah, almost all the people I've talked to about it had the same opinion you did. That there's not much there to drive an upgrade. But I also don't think NCE was expecting it to. They just needed a product to ship. Exactly. Rich
Exactly.
The way that this was originally presented was that NCE was shipping a "new system". This is a mis-representation so far as I'm concerned.
It may be "new" to the extent that up to date components are being used, and there may be added features. However, as far as I can tell it still does everything the "old" unit did and is backward compatible.
It is not "new" like some of the MRC systems that don't talk to each other.
I mean, it's a DCC system. It fundamentally will be interoperable. By that logic, the Digitrax dcs50, 51, and 52 are all the same system
Also, which MRC system are you referring to? the Next will have the ability to use old Prodigy bus throttles and there will also be the ability to adapt the new Next LCC throttles to an old Prodigy system
YoHo1975NOBODY has said ANYONES opinions were irrelevant.
Uh...
ALEXANDER WOOD...not particularly relevant...
YoHo1975This is insulting and I kindly ask that you put some more effort into reading people's posts.
Yes- -I agree- -after thoroughly reading all the posts.
richhotrain Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example. Rich
Rich, I'm curious which ESU system you are referring to here. The ESU ECOS is a really strong seller in Europe with a very unique set of features and is generally better than most of its competitors. Curious if that was the system you were referring to or an older one?
YoHo1975 richhotrain Second, just because a new DCC system has recently been developed does not necessarily mean that the manufacturer has learned things from past systems and improved upon them. Consider ESU for example. Rich Rich, I'm curious which ESU system you are referring to here. The ESU ECOS is a really strong seller in Europe with a very unique set of features and is generally better than most of its competitors. Curious if that was the system you were referring to or an older one?
I don't have the experience that many of you have. My primary interest is as a single user controlling multiple trains with computer automation. I've selected iTrain as my basis and the selection of Digitrax as my DCC foundation was mainly swayed by this from the iTrain manual:
NCE Power Cab/Pro
An interface for the NCE has been added, because of many requests from users from the UK, but it is not ideal for computer control. iTrain does not receive the changes on the throttle via the computer interface, and so you can control it either manually or completely automatically via iTrain but not combined. This interface should still be considered experimental for the time being.
I have been around long enough to build a DCC-EX station, program many locos with Decoder Pro, use several smartphones with Engine Driver using either blutetooth with DCC-EX or a Digitrax LNWI, etc. I started with a Zephyr Xpress and while I didn't really like that and sold it, it wasn't because it was Digitrax, rather the too-close connection in operation and appearance with a DC power pack.
Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future.
Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following.
IC_Tom Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future. Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following.
betamax Digitrax has been around since before the adoption of the DCC Standard, showing one of the first DCC systems at the time the standard was announced. NCE began as a sub-contractor to Wangrow, supplying a number of components for the SystemOne. NCE realized the SystemOne, while being a top of the line system, was falling behind Digitrax's offerings. NCE designed a successor, but Wangrow was not interested, so that product became the first NCE system. Their Power Pro system has been around for decades now, with little evolution aside from software updates, mostly to fix bugs. It recently recieved a major update with new hardware. The Power Cab has been around for at least 20 years, with little change outside of software updates. Digitrax has been busy during the same period introducing new devices and DCC systems with additional features, creating their own ecosystem in the process.
Anecdotal evidence would suggest that more users prefer NCE than Digitrax for a variety of reasons. I am certain that can be disputed, but that is my takeaway.
IC_Tom I don't have the experience that many of you have. My primary interest is as a single user controlling multiple trains with computer automation. I've selected iTrain as my basis and the selection of Digitrax as my DCC foundation was mainly swayed by this from the iTrain manual: NCE Power Cab/Pro An interface for the NCE has been added, because of many requests from users from the UK, but it is not ideal for computer control. iTrain does not receive the changes on the throttle via the computer interface, and so you can control it either manually or completely automatically via iTrain but not combined. This interface should still be considered experimental for the time being. I have been around long enough to build a DCC-EX station, program many locos with Decoder Pro, use several smartphones with Engine Driver using either blutetooth with DCC-EX or a Digitrax LNWI, etc. I started with a Zephyr Xpress and while I didn't really like that and sold it, it wasn't because it was Digitrax, rather the too-close connection in operation and appearance with a DC power pack. Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future. Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following.
This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better.
But if you like it then that's all that matters.
I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems.
Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
betamax IC_Tom Digitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future. Admittedly, that's just one opinion, but that's what I've learned since getting back into this hobby from the mid-80s. I don't think it invalidates anything posted here because my planning is for automation and that's sort of a niche compared to the ubitquitous "operations" following. Digitrax has been around since before the adoption of the DCC Standard, showing one of the first DCC systems at the time the standard was announced. NCE began as a sub-contractor to Wangrow, supplying a number of components for the SystemOne. NCE realized the SystemOne, while being a top of the line system, was falling behind Digitrax's offerings. NCE designed a successor, but Wangrow was not interested, so that product became the first NCE system. Their Power Pro system has been around for decades now, with little evolution aside from software updates, mostly to fix bugs. It recently recieved a major update with new hardware. The Power Cab has been around for at least 20 years, with little change outside of software updates. Digitrax has been busy during the same period introducing new devices and DCC systems with additional features, creating their own ecosystem in the process.
Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
i'm curious how those with Digitrax program decoders?
At the club, a PC running DecoderPro and separate command station are used. I use an NCE PowerCab to program PSX boards on the layout
it seems that the common use path is for someone to buy a PowerCab and then upgrade to a PowerPro. But the PowerCab is then useful for programming decoders, not as conveniently as with DecoderPro, or testing off the layout
is the something similar to a PowerCab from Digitrax?
YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system
betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly.
gregc i'm curious how those with Digitrax program decoders? At the club, a PC running DecoderPro and separate command station are used. I use an NCE PowerCab to program PSX boards on the layout it seems that the common use path is for someone to buy a PowerCab and then upgrade to a PowerPro. But the PowerCab is then useful for programming decoders, not as conveniently as with DecoderPro, or testing off the layout is the something similar to a PowerCab from Digitrax?
Hi,
I have extensive experience with both systems. And also, I am an electronics engineer. There is no can of worms. Since either system is not gesigned for Operations, but mostly for Programming, my main Use Case was Programming.
And from that perspective, Digitrax cannot program extended CV (confirmed by Digitrax engineers) which NCE can and does seamlessly.
There you go. Enjoy...
betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands.
I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs.
DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
YoHo1975 betamax YoHo1975 Compared to European systems and TCS Digitrax is almost as stuck in the past as NCE. Honestly. Their great contribution was loconet that allowed others to build on their system NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is. The European market has a different outlook, with smaller layouts and an emphasis on automation. The manufacturers in that market react accordingly. Then there is cost. The first complaint is always cost, especially when some of the higher end European systems are mentioned. TCS invested a lot of time and money in their system, and they are a small player compared to NCE and Digitrax with decades of presence in the market. Should they design systems for the present, instead of relying on their current product lines? Of course. With no serious competition, they do not feel the need to match the more advanced systems from other brands. I agree with this...to a point. And it's quite hard to judge things when we're discussing small private companies, but TCS has made quite the splash with the UWT series controllers. The fact that Digitrax and NCE users seek them out suggests that a fair number of users of those systems DON'T in fact think they are meeting customer needs. DCC is a fairly expensive investment though, so the hill to climb to convince someone to replace the whole thing is high.
Probably if he can give you a good discount.
I am an NCE fan. However, I did buy a TCS UWT-50. Only because I operate on somebody else's Digitrax infested railroad and the Digitrax radio I had previously purchased didn't function worth a darn.
I don't know. I'm not a salesman. And I'm not sure what you need out of a system.
I could probably convince you to at least try a UWT throttle. That's $200-$300 (assuming you already have WiThrottle support) The UWT throttles are much more comfortable in the hand and I believe more logically laid out than the Hammerhead and I'd argue also than the Cab06 throttles.
Now, a more interesting question would be, if your PH Pro Base station straight up died and was unrepairable, or it would cost a significant amount of money to repair. Could I convince you to switch to CS-105.
Maybe I could. You can drop the CS-105 right into the PH Pros spot. Plug in the boosters and the throttle bus and turn it on and it would immediately work. So it is money you would be spending either way in that scenario.
YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though
You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand?
You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
I didn't know that limitation with Digitrax (lack of extended CVs) but anyone exclusively programming with a DCC system throttle is, saying it nicely, underutilizing commonly available tools.
As far as cvs go, I do all my programming with a dcs 51. I dont care about sound as I am hard of hearing so I am not interested in sound. As to ergonomics I use a 400 throttle and a couple of others I am so used to them that they are easy to use. I suppose its what u get used to.
Mike
IC_Tom YoHo1975 This is the first time I've ever heard someone suggest that Digitrax had ergonomic throttles. I feel like their latest throttles they were forced to change because everyone else fromnce to TCS to Roco had actually good ergonomics. So they grudgingly made things ever so slightly better. But if you like it then that's all that matters. I know that iTrain and the other big automation options work extremely well with the popular European systems. Europeans are way more into automation than American modelers. The automation systems support loconet due to it's being available on those euro systems. Digitrax choices on who can license loconet are somewhat mercurial though You must have a different definition of ergonomics. Are the throttle enclosures straight or curved? Are the knobs tactile and of decent size? Are buttons shaped all the same or are they different, depending on function? Is there a hammerhead hanging off the end of your hand? You could argue (and win) a lack of ergo with the 400-series, but it's been years now since the 600 series.
The 600 series has curves that need not exist, the buttons are odd shaped and all over the place making it difficult to use muscle memory.
The UWT-100 and 50 (I prefer the 100 myself) Have simple clean lines, the common shape that anyone who has used a TV remote control is comfortable with. Every button is within reach with no stretching. It is one of the quickest throttles I've ever picked up. And it's the only throttle I've ever used that felt comfortable in the hand all the time.
Most buttons on the TCS are the same size, but, the 4 programable function buttons on the 100 all have pips on them to indicate 1,2,3,4 which is a consistant and understantable tactile feel and the speed buttons are different sized.
The 602 has buttons above the screen and below. It's an ergonomic mess. If you're running a train, you can't take a glance at the screen without moving your hand and there are reach issues that suggest it was designed for two handed operation.
I regularly run with the UWT-100 in one hand and my orders or an uncoupling pick in the other and I don't ever have to look at the throttle or use my uncoupling hand.
I don't want to oversell the Hammerhead. I think it's too heavy and the button layout leaves a lot to be desired. but compared to its digitrax contemporaries, it was much better.
I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this.
Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train.
The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!
The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along.
We have our board meeting a week from tomorrow night so things should be decided at that point. I'll let you all know what the final decision is.
Thanks again for the feedback all of you have provided.
Good luck.
YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info.
Regards, Chris
YoHo1975 I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this. Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train. The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine. It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.
YoHo1975 The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS!
So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right?
Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?
IC_Tom YoHo1975 I am an electrical engineer by education and at least for part of my Career. Now I deal more directly with customer and spend a lot of time working with engineers to explain why customers don't like their designs. So I tend to be blunt about stuff like this. Digitrax has always looked and felt like a product developed by engineer with no UI expereince. It is the type of product only an engineer could love. The original product lines in particular. The throttles looked like old programmable calculators. Like you needed to use reverse-polish notation to run a train. The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! The guys that designed the UWT were NCE users who started with what was good about the hammerhead and applied good design principles to make it meet the look and feel that they wanted out of it. They also shared progress as they designed it and got feedback from the people following along. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, the same as I was expressing mine. It seems you feel very strongly about it, so this Engineer will leave the conversation.
I don't want to stop you from having your opinion. And I am certainly disagreeing with you, but I want to explain why and where I'm coming from on it. Like I said, I was being blunt, but if the goal is to give the OP good advice, then I feel like explaining where the opinion comes from.
I was being honest in my perception that I don't hear people describe Digitrax as a company that does good ergonomics. SO hearing other thoughts on it is a good thing.
Part of why I have a strong opinion is that the TCS team explained their decisions to potential customers openly on open platforms and got feedback on it. They took that feedback and made changes. Which I think it critical to good design. I like what they came up with, but even if I didn't personally care for the design, knowing that did that tells me a lot.
Tophias YoHo1975, I'm not familiar with the UWT-100 throttle system. Can just a throttle be purchased and used on a Digitrax system? What's involved with that? Thnx in advance for your info. Regards, Chris
Chris,
https://www.tcsdcc.com/uwt-100
the TCS throttles have been out for a number of years now.
The Throttles are Wifi Throttles that support 2 modes.
Mode 1 is Withrottle. So it works the same as a smart phone running engine driver. To use it with Digitrax, you would need either JMRI running with WiThrottle. Or an LNWI.
Turn the throttle on. Choose the proper Wifi network and it will connect just as a Cell phone would.
Mode 2 is LCC mode. That mode works with DCC systems that support LCC. At this point that means TCS, DIY systems or, sometime later this year, the new MRC Next system.
The protothrottle is also available for Digitrax(WiThrottle) if that type of throttle interests you. And there are a number of projects out there to build your own Withrottle based wifi throttle.
If you are into electronics/Arduino DIY projects, this one can be fun. There are versions from the most basic utility throttle to a full feature throttle.
YoHo1975 Good luck.
Thanks. It will be what it is. Personally I am voting to keep what we have - but update and improve it. I just don't think the issues we have are so serious and frequent that an entire replacement is needed, or desirable. But, as president I mainly just run the meeting - and I am just one vote out of the 12 on the board. Plus, if we voted to change systems, it would still need to be approved by the membership - though generally if the board recommends something, the membership generally agrees with it.
Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it.
That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it.
AEP528 YoHo1975 The 600 series to me really looks like they watched a youtube video on ergonomics and retained: CURVES AND ODDSHAPED BUTTONS! So.. you do understand the 600 series are two throttles in one package, right? Perhaps you should be comparing the Digitrax UT6 series to TCS instead?
I am well aware.
The TCS UWT-100 also can do 2 throttles at once.
YoHo1975 Maybe suggest buying something like a UWT-100 or 50 and see how people feel about it. That's how my club started. We bought one and let people try it.
Most of our members are now using their smart phones as throttles.
Also, at this point I don't want to muddy the waters any further by throwing another component into the mix.
Makes sense.
If they're all using their smart phones, then for the most part, all this discussion is somewhat moot. It doesn't matter what system you use. And if a member does want something different, they can buy the UWT, or build their own throttle and the club doesn't need to change anything.
jjdamnitWe gave our honest opinions of the systems we own and use along with recommendations about the two systems in question. Others chimed in and asserted that our opinions are irrelevant because "newer" DCC systems offer "better" technologies. If those "newer and better" technologies are not wanted or needed then there is no reason to upgrade.
The discussion was about switching to different DCC system. The OP needs to fix the problems with the layout and/or Digitrax system first, but there are two major reasons why TCS makes much more sense than NCE as an alternative:
1. The Digitrax throttles can be used with the TCS system, in addition to NCE throttles.
2. While existing NCE systems are "good enough" for many modelers, they have no value proposition over the almost identically priced TCS system that is far more modern and advanced.
Just to be clear, since people commonly twist what I'm saying, I'm not saying that everyone with NCE should trash their system and get the TCS system. What I'm saying is that for someone buying a new system today, there is no value proposition for NCE when the TCS system is about the same price. Other options are less expensive or have other unique features and may be worthwhile to look at.
reasearchhoundMost of the members have switched to using their smart phones as throttles. But a few of the old timers still prefer to use a throttle, and some of the younger members (12-14 years old) have parents who don't allow them to have smart phones yet.
I'd get a couple of TCS throttles or have people get their own. At the point that you're using mostly Wi-Fi throttles, it doesn't really matter who made the command station, other than consisting if you want to get way into the weeds on that.
richhotrainIt's hard to imagine a system superior to NCE's Advanced Consisting which can be easily done POM in just a few quick keystrokes.
TCS has all the features of NCE-style consisting plus more with command-station-based consisting. It is the first system to best NCE's consisting, which was NCE's last competitive advantage over other systems, since their throttle ease of use was matched by Digitrax in 2006, and their radio performance was beaten by TCS in 2020 (and previously by European systems).
Renegade1c is spot on in virtually everything, including LocoNet, throttles, and consisting.
There is no reason for current NCE users to upgrade to the new NCE system. The upgraded performance would really only apply to very large club and modular layouts, but even then they'd be better off just upgrading to TCS instead.
The TCS UWT-100 is the evolution of the Wangrow/NCE MasterCab/ProCab, just with 25 years of technology advancement to miniaturize the throttle properly to the dimensions of a normal human hand.
richhotrainThere was a guy who no longer inhabits this forum who owned an ESU Cab Control 50310 and had no end of troubles with it. That was a few years ago, so I had to go searching for the exact model. As I read some reviews, some people seem to like the system, so maybe it was the guy's fault that he didn't know how to operate it. But, at the time, I had convinced myself that it was a newer system that went astray trying to improve on existing systems.
ESU ECoS is a top-notch DCC system. It's beyond bizarre to say that a DCC system is bad because "a guy" couldn't get it to work properly. If that was how we judged DCC systems, we couldn't use DCC at all, because I'm sure there is "a guy" who has royally screwed up a Digitrax system, "a guy" who has royally screwed up an NCE system, etc.
IC_TomDigitrax may or may not have updgraded the electronics inside of their equipment for all I know, but at least they pay attention to customers' sense of style progression with better ergonomics and packaging. It seemed to me that they also respond with new accessories when the culture seems to be moving in a certain way, such as the DS78 turnout servo controller. They also have a full suite of boosters, power district controllers, signalling, occupancy detection and transponding - plus decoders, if you want the inexpensive alternative. I also really love the little UT6D throttles. All of that - and the iTrain comments above - indicated to me a product that could be built on for the future.
Digitrax was the best DCC system bar none in 2007. Today, they have fallen behind. They have at least introduced new products, but their quality control and manuals seem to have gone down the drain, and they have moved away from interoperability like they offered with older hardware like the BDL168, SE8c, and DS64 towards a closed ecosystem that relies on the command station also being Digitrax. They have dug their heels in on Transponding, LocoNet, and Duplex over the now open standards of RailCom, LCC, and Wi-Fi.
betamaxNCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, and if history is any indicator, they are not demanding a fancy system with pictures, icons and touch screens. So it is the way it is.
I can't say whether NCE and Digitrax understand their customer base, but they don't seem very reactive to what that customer base wants.
Digitrax and NCE, the two largest DCC companies in North America, currently exist purely due to market inertia, and not because of the merits of their product offerings.
Meanwhile, TCS is absolutely in lock step with what the North American operations-based market wants in a DCC system with a focus on throttle ergonomics, reliable wireless connectivity, the most robust consisting features of any system, and more.
ALEXANDER WOOD Digitrax was the best DCC system bar none in 2007. Today, they have fallen behind. They have at least introduced new products, but their quality control and manuals seem to have gone down the drain, and they have moved away from interoperability like they offered with older hardware like the BDL168, SE8c, and DS64 towards a closed ecosystem that relies on the command station also being Digitrax. They have dug their heels in on Transponding, LocoNet, and Duplex over the now open standards of RailCom, LCC, and Wi-Fi.
snjroyWell, I have not done extensive research about this, but I can say from my own experience that the Digitrax Wifi component works very well. I use my smartphone+EngineDriver combo that will easily allow me to do advanced consisting. As for their quality control, I read this forum pretty much everyday and I have not seen any widespread complaints about that.
There are two issues here. First is that the LNWI is a very limited device that's poorly designed, as it can't attach to a home Wi-Fi network, and it can't release any of the four slots back to be re-used by other devices.
However, that all is missing the point, which is that Digitrax has decided to double down on Duplex over using Wi-Fi for their throttles. The LNWI just offers WiThrottle like JMRI does, which does not offer full system functionality like consisting and system configuration. Meanwhile, Digitrax's own throttles are not using Wi-Fi, and the systems are not Wi-Fi/Ethernet native like modern DCC systems are.
WHile I have high hopes for Firecrown media's ownership and the announcement that the software is changing emminently. Right now and over the past year, I would not consider this forum to be particularly active such that monitoring it would give you a good idea of what is going on with model railroaders and DCC.
Well, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones. I am pleased with the results.
How many 5 Amp boosters did you have and what's your Circuit breaker situation?
I am not surprised that the vote was 10/11 to keep the existing Digitrax system. Primary reasons for keeping it probably are: 1) lower cash outlay, and 2) members are already familiar with the function and operation eliminating learning a new system (except for noobs of course - then the learning curve is "up-there" from my past experience).
I purchased a Digitrax Chief system many years ago and found the learning curve, or memorization of key strokes was not working for me. The area where I live, I have noticed that most of the clubs use Digitrax, and when I have ran trains with one or two of them, someone always has to do the keystrokes before handing the throttle to me. It reminded me of things desgined by engineers make the most sense to engineers. I am not an engineer. As I get older I want something that requires less of a learning curve. So when it came to wanting a new DCC system, I needed to look elsewhere. Now that I have a layout that is nearly ready to start running trains (wiring is just about complete) I started researching options. At first I considering NCE (which was purported to be easier to do consisting with), but TCS was newly offering their system and as I learned more about it and read the feedback of users of the system, I became convinced that, for a similar cost, it made more sense to me to throw my money at TCS. I chose to purchase a TCS CS-105 command station based system.
Back to the subject at hand:
It seems logical for any club that is using Digitrax or NCE, mainly due to inertia and knowing those systems for years, to stay with those systems for the forseeable future, or at least until the system dies. Only when they are faced with complete replacement may it makes sense to change "brands". Even then the inertia and incumbant knowledge may cause the same brand to be kept when laying out replacement funds. This seems to be the primary advantage to Digitrax and NCE these days, shear inertia.
reasearchhound Well, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones. I am pleased with the results.
Sure glad that I'm not a member. And I'm happy that your organization is so flush with funds that they can afford to spend several hundreds of dollars to replace 5 amp boosters with 8 amp boosters, possibly unnecessarily,
Way at the beginning you stated that the railroad was shutting down, possibly because some person or persons was pushing an emergency stop key. You said they were going to test for this, but I see nowhere that this has been done.
If it were I, I'd make darn sure I had identified the problem before spending a dime.
What maxman said
reasearchhoundWell, we had our board meeting and 10 out of 11 voted to keep our Digitrax system, but begin swapping out our older 5amp boosters for new 8amp ones. I am pleased with the results.
I am pleased with the results.
That's a good decision. I would, however, like the others have said, focus on the actual problems before replacing ANYTHING. If one booster or power supply is bad, that one section will have issues and the others will not. Make sure the wiring is up to snuff, make sure your users aren't going rogue and performing unauthorized actions, make sure you have PSX/PSXX breakers on every power district and can isolate any electrical issues that come up.
Digitrax has a reputation of being hard to use. This was true with the DT100 and to an extent the DT300. It is NOT true with the DT400 series, they are on part with NCE, but then Digitrax seems to have regressed with the DT602 and UT6 with some truly weird design and UI/UX decisions.
ALEXANDER WOOD with the DT400 series, they are on part with NCE, but then Digitrax seems to have regressed with the DT602 and UT6 with some truly weird design and UI/UX decisions.
Since I have switched to a different DCC system, I have a hardly ever used DT402D I am happy to part with if anyone is interested
As a 25-year Digitrax user, the original problem of the layout randomly shutting down during operations is almost certainly caused by users of DT400/500-series throttles not knowing the difference between "local" stop and "global" stop.On a Digitrax DT400 or 500, the Emergency Stop button can be programmed to work in one of two ways. When the throttle is programmed to "local" stop, pressing the Emergency Stop button only zeros out the active throttle (pressing it again zeros out the other throttle) and cancels out any CV04 coasting momentum. This only effects addresses being run by this one throttle only.When a throttle is programmed to "global" stop, pressing the Emergency Stop button puts the layout into "Pause" mode.
Every Digitrax system has three power modes: On, Off, and Pause. On a DT400 or DT500-series throttle, there's a pixel in the upper right corner of the screen. If this dot is on, the track power is on. If it's off, the track power is off. If the dot is blinking, the layout is paused. Normally, the only way to pause the layout is to hit the Power button once, then hit "+" when the layout is already turned on (do it again to unpause)."In pause" mode, all trains stop, thus the global aspect of the name. Note that this does not zero out any throttles; it only stops trains from running. When un-paused, all trains will resume at their current throttle setting.A few end users at clubs like to think that they know what they're doing and they program their own throttles to be "global" stop (note that "local" stop is the default setting). I guess they think that "global" sounds better than "local"? Anyways, these folks also like to play with momentum effects like CV04, and when they get into trouble (like they're gonna hit a bumper or miss a Kadee magnet), they hit Emergency Stop and put the layout into Pause mode.
We've had so many incidents like this that we've had to teach every member what it means and to follow a set of programming guidelines for each throttle they have. Please note that when a layout is paused, the track power is still on. All headlights continue to function (but are not controllable), the status lights remain on and constant, etc., but no trains will move until it is unpaused. The only way to tell if the layout is paused is to look at a throttle and look for the dot or, for a DT600, it will say "Paused".
Interesting post, Paul. That sure sounds like what happened at the OP's club.
Thanks for the info. Copied it and sent it on to the member who is in charge of getting the throttles to behave. He was at the club yesterday afternoon and managed to corral a few personal throttles and reconfigured them.
Great post Paul. That was one thing that didn't even occur to me. I don't understand why people even use E-stop in the first place, it seems like cheating the system. If something really bad is going to happen, I can just hold the locomotive down or pull it back.
We had to do that with our UWT throttles too and our NCE throttles. Because people panic....especially when they forget that they are running a loco with a TCS decoder set up for momentum and braking and they didn't plan properly.
That "Global: stop is a PITA. At the large N Scale Layout in Louisville in 2008 all throttles had to have that turned off. Throttles were inspected by the DCC Staff before they could run a train on the red line.
I recall talking to A.J. Ireland about this feature. He told me that he would have left that feature out if it wasn't something many individual operators wanted.
When that dot is blinking, DCC packets are stopped but track power stays on. I've even taken phone calls while away from a layout to "fix" that problem.
Martin Myers
And hopefully this will be a less expensive solution than spending X amount of dollars for un-needed boosters.
I would suggest the following for repeat offenders: