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Athearn Challengers causing DCC to short when going over turnouts

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  • Member since
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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, July 27, 2024 5:03 PM

IbanezGuiness

So it looks like I just need to replace these traction tires. I will probaby start a new thread with help on where to get them and how to do it. 

Good call. Yes
 
Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, July 27, 2024 4:57 PM

IbanezGuiness

One thing however that I didn't think about earlier is that the rear drivers are missing the traction tires, they were dried out and falling apart so I just removed them. The gap left without the traction tires is wide enough that a rail will fit inside it. I wonder if that could be the cause of my problems???

You called it back on June 4th.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Saturday, July 27, 2024 4:03 PM

So I'm pretty confident I've figured out what is going on. I spent some time with a really bright light watching the loco go through the turnouts and I found a slow enough speed the loco would stop when the short happened. 

Because the traction tires are missing on the very rear wheels of the second engine the rail is going up into the groove where the traction tire would be. This is causing the wheel to run over the rail lowering it which in turn raises the front wheel of the rear engine. This is resulting in the flanges not always centering through the frogs and allowing the wheel to get off track and causing the shorts. 

So it looks like I just need to replace these traction tires. I will probaby start a new thread with help on where to get them and how to do it. 

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Thursday, July 25, 2024 2:10 PM

Can the OP take a picture and post a photo of the turnout so we can possibly identify it?  The instructions are at the top of the General Discussions forum.

Yes, it's a bit of a chore to set up the first one, but it gets easier after that.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, July 25, 2024 11:08 AM

When the short happens, the engine should stop and the DCC system give some type of beep as an alarm. I would suggest running the Challenger as slowly as possible and see where exactly it is in the turnout when the short happens.

If it stops at say one of the drivers, try moving the driver side-to-side a little and see if that stops the short. Because these engines are so big, but still can go around sharp (mine will do a 22"R curve), the drivers have a lot of lateral side-to-side play and it's possible that's causing something to touch something that is doing the short.

Stix
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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Thursday, July 25, 2024 7:49 AM

snjroy

 I honestly haven't been able to figure that out yet because I haven't been able to see a visible arc, just the short message on the DCC controller. 

 

I have had very little free time lately, when my son and I do run some trains we just haven't been running the challengers. I do want to get this sorted out at some point soon thought. Thanks everyone for the replies. 

 
wjstix

 

 
IbanezGuiness
I don't know the size of the turnouts, how do I measure that? 

 

Easiest way is, when you bought the turnouts, the package would say something like "No. 4 turnout" or "No. 6 turnout". The higher the number, the more gradual the angle of the turnout. If you don't still have the packaging, it may have information on the bottom of the turnout. If nothing else, might have the manufacturer name and a part number you could then use to look up the turnout online.

I suppose it's possible the missing traction tire could cause a problem, though it seems unlikely to me. If you can get another one from Athearn, undoing one siderod connection to slip it on isn't all that hard. Otherwise you could try filling it in with Bullfrog Snot and see if that works. 

 

 

 

I have succesfully replaced one on a Mantua with Bullfrog Snot. A missing tire will cause operational  issues and should be fixed.

 

Simon

 

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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Thursday, July 25, 2024 7:47 AM

maxman

 There are 2 traction tires on the rear wheels of the rear engine. 

 
wjstix
I suppose it's possible the missing traction tire could cause a problem,

 

It is unclear to me if he means one traction tire or mutiple.  He says "they" which to me means more than one.

Is there one missing from each side?  And if missing from both sides are the sides still insulated from each other?

 

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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Thursday, July 25, 2024 7:47 AM

I bought the layout used already built, I don't know who made the turnouts. They are balasted so getting one out to see a brand on the bottom wouldn't be easy. 

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Posted by BillyJoeBob on Tuesday, July 23, 2024 5:15 PM

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53877301589_70e60c677b_m.jpg

Ibanez, I had exactly the same problem with a handlayed Turnout. I cut the rail gaps in the closure and wing rails too close to the frog which led to shorting. I cut additional sets of gaps further from the frog to allow a bit more distance between the closures and wings. If it turns out to be true that the wheels (tires) are wider (NMRA Standards?), you might want to try the method I describe below.

The fix:

1) Apply 5 or 6 drops of liquid (not gel) ACC to the area of the new gaps. Let set for an hour or so.

2) Using a 32-tooth razor saw, cut the gaps. Now, and this is important. It should take 20 or so slow saw strokes to make a complete gap. If you use fewer strokes, each stroke will require more force that might move the short piece of rail next to the frog. It would a good idea to make 10 or so practice cuts on a spare picece of track until you get a feel for cutting rail. A trick to start the cut is to turn the saw backwards and using the teeth close to the handle, draw the saw lightly backwards across the rail top a few times to score (scratch) the top of the rail. Once scored, turn the saw and starting slowly, cut the gap. If the teeth catch, it means that your are applying too much pressure between the saw and rail - back off slightly. A cool head is the main thing!

Actually, you only need to cut one rail.

Note in the photo that I use .010 styrene to fill the gap. Insert the plastic, add a drop or two of the ACC in the gap, let dry and trim the plastic to the contour of the rail.

Final point. If you completely loose your mind and the small piece of rail moves, simply move it back with needle nose plyers and apply a bit more ACC.

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, July 22, 2024 1:54 PM

I'd be interested in knowing when exactly the short happens - like is it when the first driver hits the frog, or when the engine is farther along, etc.? Plus we don't know what kind of track the OP is using, so don't know if it's a power routing turnout or deadfrog or what.

Stix
  • Member since
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Posted by snjroy on Monday, July 22, 2024 1:29 PM

wjstix

 

 
IbanezGuiness
I don't know the size of the turnouts, how do I measure that? 

 

Easiest way is, when you bought the turnouts, the package would say something like "No. 4 turnout" or "No. 6 turnout". The higher the number, the more gradual the angle of the turnout. If you don't still have the packaging, it may have information on the bottom of the turnout. If nothing else, might have the manufacturer name and a part number you could then use to look up the turnout online.

I suppose it's possible the missing traction tire could cause a problem, though it seems unlikely to me. If you can get another one from Athearn, undoing one siderod connection to slip it on isn't all that hard. Otherwise you could try filling it in with Bullfrog Snot and see if that works. 

 

I have succesfully replaced one on a Mantua with Bullfrog Snot. A missing tire will cause operational  issues and should be fixed.

Simon

  • Member since
    February 2008
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Posted by maxman on Monday, July 22, 2024 12:51 PM

wjstix
I suppose it's possible the missing traction tire could cause a problem,

It is unclear to me if he means one traction tire or mutiple.  He says "they" which to me means more than one.

Is there one missing from each side?  And if missing from both sides are the sides still insulated from each other?

  • Member since
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Posted by wjstix on Monday, July 22, 2024 9:04 AM

IbanezGuiness
I don't know the size of the turnouts, how do I measure that? 

Easiest way is, when you bought the turnouts, the package would say something like "No. 4 turnout" or "No. 6 turnout". The higher the number, the more gradual the angle of the turnout. If you don't still have the packaging, it may have information on the bottom of the turnout. If nothing else, might have the manufacturer name and a part number you could then use to look up the turnout online.

I suppose it's possible the missing traction tire could cause a problem, though it seems unlikely to me. If you can get another one from Athearn, undoing one siderod connection to slip it on isn't all that hard. Otherwise you could try filling it in with Bullfrog Snot and see if that works. 

Stix
  • Member since
    February 2008
  • 8,900 posts
Posted by maxman on Saturday, July 20, 2024 10:55 PM

IbanezGuiness
One thing however that I didn't think about earlier is that the rear drivers are missing the traction tires, they were dried out and falling apart so I just removed them. The gap left without the traction tires is wide enough that a rail will fit inside it. I wonder if that could be the cause of my problems???

Anyone have an opinion?

  • Member since
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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, July 20, 2024 8:15 PM

So who made the turnouts and what model are they?  The fix for Pecos is easy and obvious.  If they're not Pecos, we need to look further.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by thomas81z on Saturday, July 20, 2024 6:29 PM

CharlieM

 After replacing the original MRC decoder with a Tsunami 2 it’s a reliable and well performing engine. I would look closely at your Challengers for problems.
 
Charlie - Northern Colorado
 

this here is the truth 

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, June 4, 2024 7:37 PM

IbanezGuiness

Track gauge arrived and I had a few mintues to check each locomotive, all of the wheels fit within the gauge, a few were tight but this was because they were just a bit on the narrow side, not too wide. However I had no problems getting the flange of each wheel pair into the gauge.

 

One thing however that I didn't think about earlier is that the rear drivers are missing the traction tires, they were dried out and falling apart so I just removed them. The gap left without the traction tires is wide enough that a rail will fit inside it. I wonder if that could be the cause of my problems??? I'd like to replace these but it does not look trivial and I don't have the easiest time working on small stuff like this. 

 

I haven't had time yet to check the gauge of all of the turnouts yet. 

 

I would be real surprised if the turnout rails are out of gauge. The more likely reason is that the wheels are touching rails of opposite polarity. 

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Tuesday, June 4, 2024 6:40 PM

Track gauge arrived and I had a few mintues to check each locomotive, all of the wheels fit within the gauge, a few were tight but this was because they were just a bit on the narrow side, not too wide. However I had no problems getting the flange of each wheel pair into the gauge.

 

One thing however that I didn't think about earlier is that the rear drivers are missing the traction tires, they were dried out and falling apart so I just removed them. The gap left without the traction tires is wide enough that a rail will fit inside it. I wonder if that could be the cause of my problems??? I'd like to replace these but it does not look trivial and I don't have the easiest time working on small stuff like this. 

 

I haven't had time yet to check the gauge of all of the turnouts yet. 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, May 27, 2024 7:21 PM

I'm still thinking that it is the driver wheels touching converging rails of opposite polarity.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Monday, May 27, 2024 6:54 PM

I tried running it without the front pilot and that made no difference. I've ordered a track gauge and I'll do some checking once I get it. 

 

I've heard the MRC decoders in these aren't that good. Is it possible the decoder is causing this problem?

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Posted by maxman on Monday, May 27, 2024 4:46 PM

IbanezGuiness
If the wheels are out of gauge can that be corrected? 

Probably better for you to check the gauge first rather than get your drawers in a bunch unnecessarily.

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Posted by CharlieM on Monday, May 27, 2024 1:01 PM

FWIW I have an early Athearn Genesis blue box Challenger, model G9123 D&RGW #3802, that traverses my entire layout with no problems. This includes almost 100 turnouts of mixed Atlas and Peco manufacture. Both through and diverging paths of RH, LH, straight, curved, Wye, slip, and double crossover #4 and #6 turnouts. After replacing the original MRC decoder with a Tsunami 2 it’s a reliable and well performing engine. I would look closely at your Challengers for problems.
 
Charlie - Northern Colorado
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Posted by betamax on Sunday, May 26, 2024 4:11 PM

IbanezGuiness

If the wheels are out of gauge can that be corrected? 

 

 

It can be done. It may be a simple thing, but with a steam locomotive's mechanism, it is best to get help from someone who knows what to do and has the tools. It is too easy to make a mistake and introduce a new problem, especially with respect to the quartering. 

Also check the turnouts with the gauge to ensure everything there is correct.

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Posted by richhotrain on Sunday, May 26, 2024 11:09 AM

IbanezGuiness

If the wheels are out of gauge can that be corrected? 

 

If the two Challengers don't derail on the rest of your track including curves, I would just concentrate on the turnouts. Try more clear nail polish. At one time, I used tiny slices of masking tape at the points of rail convergence. 

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Sunday, May 26, 2024 9:26 AM

If the wheels are out of gauge can that be corrected? 

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Posted by betamax on Saturday, May 25, 2024 8:28 PM

Check your wheel gauging. DCC systems react to the slightest indication of a short circuit, and out of gauge wheels are one cause.

Basically, almost all turnouts are compatible with DCC. Some may require a few tweaks to eliminate issues. 

DCC Friendly Turnouts

 

Tags: DCC
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, May 25, 2024 12:53 PM

Doggone it, Mr. B. beat me to it.

Since the other locos have no problem traversing the turnouts, its gotta be the Challengers. The wider driver wheels touch converging rails of opposite polarity on the turnout causing a short. Clear nail polish is your friend.

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by IbanezGuiness on Saturday, May 25, 2024 12:50 PM

I forgot to mention that I've tried this already with little to no improvement, but perhapds I didn't do a good enough job? I could always try again. 

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Saturday, May 25, 2024 12:40 PM

I had a problem like this with Peco turnouts.  The frog itself on these is plastic, but the approaching rails almost touch at the frog.  So, engines with wide wheels would sometimes bridge the gap between the metal rails and cause a short.

Believe it or not, the solution was to put a dab of nail polish on the frog gap, insulating the the rails by effectively making the plastic section a bit larger.

I'd recommend either black or clear polish, to make the fiix less noticeable. 

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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