I'm totally with Sheldon at home all DC he says he has aobut 145 engines so I went downstairs I'm at about 142 some have been converted from DCC those receivers I take to the club and install in anyone's engines that want or need one
Been doing this way too long to change now and would be expensive
I also use PWM throttles and they work just fine
Here's one of my older ones It's an athearn and it runs at same speed as any other engine I have
SheldonMel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL And Kevin is right, me, Kevin, Wayne, the OP and other DC operators don't owe any of you an explanation for our choice, and we are tired of being told why we should have made a different choice.
And Kevin is right, me, Kevin, Wayne, the OP and other DC operators don't owe any of you an explanation for our choice, and we are tired of being told why we should have made a different choice.
Rich (a dedicated DCC operator)
Alton Junction
I am likely to offend people on both sides of this question, but here goes. Everything I am about to say is my opinion, an opinion based on 50 years in the hobby and 25 years of converting DCC locos back to DC. At least a third of my 145 locos came with DCC or DCC with sound.
First, there is no ONE answer on how to do it, all of these "speculative" suggestions only apply to one brand or another, one "era" of DCC evolution, etc. You are not answering the OP's question by providing incomplete "guesses" at how to do this. But this is typical of the Facebook "sound bite" responses these days.
To the OP, I sent you a private message and offered to help. I understand that part of the forum software may not be working for you. But if you want help, let me know.
I am amused by all the wishy washy people in the world who cannot decide if they want DCC or not. No offense intended, I'm just not someone who changes my mind once I have evaluated the facts and made a choice.
Again to the OP, and others. There is no one answer, each brand/version will be different.
But three things are for sure, if you want good DC operation, you need the decoder gone, you need to forget sound, and you need throttles better than 90% of the "power packs" that have ever been made.
If you do want sound, suck it up and get DCC.
I bought BLI/PCM "stealth" locos.......... I have not bought a whole lot of BLI products in total. They have made it clear they don't care about my business, and that is their right.
In most cases until recently, factory lighting boards that are separate from decoders can be retained and rewired for DC.
But in every case, you must learn the wiring protocol for each brand/model and then understand the requirements for GOOD DC operation.
Kevin, next time you want to back convert a DCC loco, please call me. We will get it done.
All of you should have made different choices, about era, road name, layout construction, curve radius, purchases of specific brands........ How does that feel?
I think all your layouts need signal systems.......... you think I need DCC and sound, we're even.
I have not been around for a few weeks, getting started on my layout and busy with other things. Maybe you will hear from me again when I feel like sharing my progress.
Or maybe not?
Sheldon
My thought is to dissconnect the motor outputs from the decoder and connect them to the rail connections. This would be relatively simple with a wired connection but plug connected decoders will require some research to get the right two terminals. Once the decoder's motor motor outputs are isolated from rail power there should be no damage to the decoder. This would allow the motor to be controlled by the DC input on the rails. Available sound features would still be available through the decoder.
Martin Myers
Earlier version AHM/Rivarossi steam engines had plastic driver centers (with metal tires) on metal axles. Eventually, the plastic wheel centers become loose and the drivers slip out of quarter. The resulting bind will literally stop the loco in its tracks. Some would try supergluing the plastic drivers onto the metal axles, but that is only a temporary fix. I once rebuilt a Rivarossi 2-8-8-2 with new (oem replacement) drivers...
Even in the model world, quartering absolutely does matter.
LastspikemikeI had thought that the drivers on one side needed to be lined up pretty much exactly to stop the rod pins from binding. Whether the left and right sided are quartered isn't relevant at all except for appearance.
Note that 3-cylinder engines have the outside throws at an oblique angle, and some 4-cylinder engines have them opposed. Very few model engines have scale inside motionwork, and usually rely on the rods to drive all but one of the drivers, so some of the concerns with accurate phasing 'matter' there, too. If an 'opposed' engine of this kind is at FDC or BDC and there is play, slop, or misalignment, some of the rods may 'try to go the wrong way' when pushed, resulting in a bind.
I have considerable experience running the latest brand new diesels from a number of manufacturers with both plain DC and DCC. My layout has a DPDT toggle switch to allow power to go to either the MRC Tech 7 (DC) power supply or to the NCE Power Cab.
1. Rapido specifically states NOT to use certain MRC power supplies because they do not provide the "pure" filtered DC current which is required by today's locos and instead can destroy the decoder. They are NOT the only manufacturer to recommend against use of older power supplies. Bowser specifically does NOT recommend use of their DCC/Loksound equipped engines in plain DC mode at all regardless of your power supply (this is partly for loco performance). It does NOT matter what manufacturer MRC says, if you use those older power supplies you are just ASKING for trouble. A number of people have trashed their Rapido decoders by doing this, and it's in their instructions as a warning not to do this, so I'm pretty sure they know what they are talking about. I would not trust one word MRC says on this matter because I've seen the poor plain dc performance of the current Loksound decoders firsthand. After brief testing, I stopped attempting to use plain DC.
2. In fact, the MRC 9500 is an older power supply, and while perhaps not as old as the ones specifically mentioned in the Rapido Instructions, I would not use it to run ANY dcc dual mode decoder engine at this late date. It just is not as good as today's MRC Tech 6 or Tech 7. My local train store would warn against using it for today's dual mode engines.
At my house I ran plain dc and dual mode engines for awhile, but after seeing and enjoying some of the benefits of full blown dcc operation (mainly I like the cool lighting features) there just came a point where we didn't use plain dc anymore.
My son has one engine left that does not have a decoder yet, and we might just sell it rather than attempt conversion to dcc.
When buying engines, it is now easier (and more cost effective) to just buy the full blown sound and dcc version (at least for the models I am buying). I did recently purchase two Athearn Genesis plain DC Gevo units, to try, and then when I got the full blown ScaleTrains Gevo units in with the dcc and sound, well for the $70 price difference it became more cost effective to just buy the full blown ScaleTrains dcc/Loksound units (which are much nicer models than the Athearn Genesis versions, just regarding the detailing and see-through screens).
(Realistically I am not going to be able to get the sugar cube speakers, decoder, and get somebody to perform an installation, if I wanted to do that, for less than $70. Not likely going to happen.)
jjdamnitWith steam drivetrains, from what I understand, the wheels need to be "quartered" to sync with the side rods. Be aware of this with reassembly after inspection.
My advice was, and is, to buy or make a quartering jig, and use that to get consistent angle of quarter between opposite crankpins.
tsdAs some have said, it is really easy to go DC from a DCC engine (at least BLI). If the 4 pin connector is only being used for motor and not motor and track power, then one can just move the 2 wires for motor over to the other 2 open pins on the same connector and now the motor is connected right to track power.
Where were you when I needed you?
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Has anyone ever really played with CV's? Mentioned BLI engines and I know they can be turned. CV's to adjust at what voltage the engine starts at for motor, and what volatage will set it to max speed, etc. That way one can get much more range out of it. Sometimes even turning back EMF off can help.
Many who run DC do have DCC or if a lot of BLI engines a DC Master, which would allow CV changes then.
As some have said, it is really easy to go DC from a DCC engine (at least BLI). If the 4 pin connector is only being used for motor and not motor and track power, then one can just move the 2 wires for motor over to the other 2 open pins on the same connector and now the motor is connected right to track power. Or worse case, splice into track power. Of course sounds will be off then, but some CV's can be tweaked to help with that, or simply unplug the speaker from the connector. That way the changes are really easy to reverse in the event DCC control is wanted back. I have done this for a couple customers who really wanted just straight DC on some of their BLI engines, and it's always worked out well.
Hello All,
gmpullmanThe one "sure-fire" way to make your locomotives operate on DC...power is to simply eliminate the decoder altogether.
I completely agree!
However...
As I often quote Albert Einstein,
"Once you open a can of worms the only way to get all the worms back in, is to use a bigger can."
For this "reclamation" you will need:
In my experience diesel locomotives are less complex to work on than steam.
An additional plus to this reversion to DC is you can inspect the running gear and electrical components and do any upgrades as necessary to keep them running into the future.
With steam drivetrains, from what I understand, the wheels need to be "quartered" to sync with the side rods. Be aware of this with reassembly after inspection.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
I think that running a DCC dual mode decoder with an MRC power pack might run into the power pack delivering a pulse whith modulation voltage. Do not know if that is the case or not, has I have not used an MRC power pack for years. At one point in time with DC, plus whith modulation was a way to make a DC motor start at a lower voltage. With DCC the decoders see the pulse whith modulation has a signal and responds to that- just an thought.
wjstixJust a question...are there really that many HO locomotive models that are only sold as DCC/Sound engines, without a "DCC Ready" DC version also being available?
I don't kow about HO scale. In N scale sure, most locomotives are available as DCC ready, but not all. If there's one or more that you want that is only available in DCC and sound, then it's not much consolation that most are available without.
Just a question...are there really that many HO locomotive models that are only sold as DCC/Sound engines, without a "DCC Ready" DC version also being available? Most engines I've seen are available both ways. Yes, maybe the LHS only has the sound version of an engine you want available, or the only version of a now-discontinued engine you've been able to track down is the sound/DCC version etc. but it seems to me most / all engines are made in both versions(?)
OvermodAssuming you have a way to modulate control signals onto variable DC in a way a DCC decoder will recognize.
There would be no need to do that. Most decoders are designed to run on DC. If it has sound, then it's not going be sychronised witht the motion very well, in fact, there's a good chance the loco will start moving before the sound even starts. If you're a "roundy-round" user (you tend to start a train and just let it run around the layout) that may not be an issue, but if you tend to do much switching, I imagine that would get pretty annoying pretty fast. If you don't like the sound, remove the decoder or just clip the spoeaker leads.
CSX RobertIn the vast majority of cases, you can leave the decoder in place and have it continue to operate the sound and lights and it will be just fine.
The whole idea of sound as externally controlled, e.g. using a Quantum Engineer or similar device, pretty well crashed and burned a couple of decades ago: for not much more you could go 'full digital' with constant track voltage and wildly more options. I'm all in favor of retaining all the DCC functionality save DC motor control in some transmissible datastream... but it is very complex to arrange it on what is, in the typical DC world, basically both a variable-strength and separately-modulated carrier.
And yes, you'd want a keep-alive, perhaps a very generous one, to keep the decoder and its other associated stuff up and running regardless of what track voltage and polarity are doing...
LastspikemikeIf really there were a market for the DC only locomotives being discussed here then it would have been supplied.
Whether or not there is a market for DC only locomotives is not relevant to this thread.
LastspikemikeThe logical solution is to buy a relatively cheap and basic DCC system to run the DCC equipment you feel you want to have.
If you have a multi-cab layout and want to be able to run your locos from any cab, then no, that is not the "logical solution."
LastspikemikeUnless you can fit a dummy plug it's not that simple to convert a DCC dual mode locomotive back to DC.
Actually, yes it is. It has already been answered (in the very first response to the original post), but it's as simple as "clip the two motor leads and solder them to the right (+ for forward) rail pickup and left pickup." Cut two wires, solder two joints, your done. In the vast majority of cases, you can leave the decoder in place and have it continue to operate the sound and lights and it will be just fine. If you do have any issues with lighting, it's pretty simple to wire up directional lighting.
LastspikemikeLogic is certainly scarce around here.
I wonder why.
I think you typed "logical" when you meant to type "silly". It is not logical for me, Sheldon, or the OP to switch to DCC for our own personal reasons that ARE logical. (Sorry to speak for others, Sheldon and the OP are welcome to issue corrections)
LastspikemikeIt's not that simple to convert a DCC dual mode locomotive back to DC. My point is you shouldn't want to.
It is not your place to tell the OP what he wants or what he does not. In the original post he said that he did not want anyone questioning why he uses DC because he has reasons for this.
It is ridiculously elitist and not-logical for you to think you know better than another experienced modeler with his own sets of wants and desires.
The "All Knowing Mike" obviously has some massive limitations.
LastspikemikeBrass prices for used equipment are dropping because fewer people want to buy it.
This statement is inaccurate.
Not all brass prices are dropping, many pieces are steadily increasing in value.
Many of us could explain the complexities of the brass marketplace, and why certain items go up, and others go down.
However, you don't want to comprehend what others share, only want to argue, and uselessly post in threads where you have no knowledge. I do not feel like banging my head against the "Spike Wall" any longer on this subject.
Please let the people who want to discuss converting DCC locomotives to DC post in this thread as the OP intended. Pointing out how the OP's desire for help does not align with "Spike Mike Style Logic" is pointless and not wanted.
If you really want to discuss brass prices, please open another thread, and then listen to the knowledgeable base in this group as they educate you on the subject. This thread was for something much more interesting. Brass prices have previously been discussed to death.
Your continuous destruction of informative threads where you do not understand the subject matter has become tiresome and repetitively boring.
Dcc is the best! Why would anyone use DC? *grumble grumble grumble...*
Kidding kidding. Do what you like. That is the best part of the hobby. Like a certain roadname? Model it! Don't like a certain roadname? Make your own road! Like sound and lights? Use DCC! Like the simplicity/inexpense/whatever else of DC? Use DC! Want a city scene? Model it! Like rural? Model That! I model GN with dcc in mostly rural areas. I've been to layouts that model GN with DC in city areas. It is the variety of the hobby that makes it appeal to people. In MY OPINION, and only my opinion, dcc is the way of the future, but, a great argument can be make for tried and true as well.
Summary? Do what you love, like or want and don't get ticked when others do the same thing.
As far as converting locos go, I would buy some 8 pin harnesses and wire them into your locomotives. Then just pop in your dummy plugs and all should work. As long as you wired the harness correctly, all lighting should work correctly. Hope this helps!
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
doctorwayneI am, however, surprised by the narrow-mindedness of some DCC-ers.
It is only some, rare even, but they are very easy to spot.
Most of the DCC users are actually model railroaders and enjoy sharing the hobby. Others just try to sound smarter than us DC luddites and enjoy expressing superiority.
Anyway, another thread has been ruined by the same set of circumstances.
MikeyChrisPlease, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons.
There was no respect for the OP.
MikeyChris, sorry this went so badly. This is a subject I would love to dicuss.
Unfortunately, this is predicatable.
LastspikemikeIt actually is quite sensible to suggest that people who claim to prefer DC to desist from buying locomotives equipped with DCC and sound.
I believe that you may have accidently spelled "stupid" as "sensible"...as it conflicts with your assertion here:
LastspikemikeDC only versions of "some locomotives" are not available because the market isn't there.
If we DC Luddites are interested in a particular locomotive that's DCC-equipped, and have the wherewithal to purchase it, it's easy enough to convert it to DC operation.
The market for DC is obviously there, but that for DCC is larger, or this conversation wouldn't even be taking place.
The fact that some DCC locos now cost as much, or more than some brass locomotives has resulted in a drop in the price of some brass...a friend and I both bought a number of brass locomotives for very reasonable prices, possibly because more people want r-t-r DCC, than brass that needs to be painted or perhaps requires mechanical work.
I get that...one size does not fit all, and I would have thought that even die-hard DCC-ers would realise that some of us just prefer simplicity over complexity.
I am, however, surprised by the narrow-mindedness of some DCC-ers.
Wayne
LastspikemikeIt actually is quite sensible to suggest that people who claim to prefer DC to desist from buying locomotives equipped with DCC and sound
Well, I guess we'll just have to agreee to disagree; however, since most lcocomotives are easy to convert from DCC to DC and it's well within the ability of most modelers, I think it makes more since to help them use the locos they want instead of telling them to just not get them.
Here is a way to do constant lighting on DC locos without putting anything in the motor circuit that would affect the speed.
http://www.pollensoftware.com/railroad/index.html
Not sure if this is germain but when I was looking to purchse a power pack from MRC I came across this warning:
ATTENTION: MRC has proudly manufactured Power Packs since 1947 and has sold more than 1 Million products to satisfied customers in North America without any issue during this time. Evidently, Rapido Trains, a relatively new train manufacturer has allegedly not made their locomotives suitable for use with MRC's 1300 & 1370 Power Packs, which have used the same tried and true technology for the last 25 years with UL Certification.
Could that be an issue with your Rapido's? Trying to be helpful....
Hi there. I can't really quote my source (it is another forum), but it appears that some decoders do not perform well with the MRC 9500 power packs. Could it be because of the pulse power? Perhaps someone more knowledge than I could confirm. If the power source is the issue, I would definitely change that before removing decoders and speakers .
Simon
MikeyChris Hi All, I run old school DC but have some "dual mode" locos that really don't run well on DC. I want to remove the decoders and hardwire them for DC. My question is: since they all have lighting features and some have DC sound, am I just trying to do something not worth doing? Please, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons. The reason I bought the locos I did (mostly BLI, both steam and diesels) is because I wanted the road name/paint schemes. But if I can't run them decently, they will just sit on the shelf. The issues with running are: too much momentum, limited speed control range due to the limited voltage swing (seems like between 8 volts and full throttle is about it), the Rapido SW1200RS's and RS18's have the same issues along with weird lighting issues (like class lights on one side work, but not the other). But my main issue is limited speed range control. BTW I'm using MRC 9500 power packs. they perform beautifully on my older DC stuff. Thanx!
Hi All,
I run old school DC but have some "dual mode" locos that really don't run well on DC. I want to remove the decoders and hardwire them for DC. My question is: since they all have lighting features and some have DC sound, am I just trying to do something not worth doing? Please, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons. The reason I bought the locos I did (mostly BLI, both steam and diesels) is because I wanted the road name/paint schemes. But if I can't run them decently, they will just sit on the shelf. The issues with running are: too much momentum, limited speed control range due to the limited voltage swing (seems like between 8 volts and full throttle is about it), the Rapido SW1200RS's and RS18's have the same issues along with weird lighting issues (like class lights on one side work, but not the other). But my main issue is limited speed range control. BTW I'm using MRC 9500 power packs. they perform beautifully on my older DC stuff. Thanx!
You can remove all of the electronics and simply directly connect the truck power to the motor. That would give you the most consistent operations.
Connecting the lights, if you want lights, will probably require resistors in the lighting circuit as to not immediately burn out the LEDs, which are standard equipment now for any loco built in the last 3 or 5 years. And you'll have to build your own directional lighting circuit.
If it were me, I would seek out green DCC Ready light boards or any old school DC light board. Either new from manufacturers (I think Athearn sells them for example) or used from the auction site. (Many people list them for sale when they convert DC to DCC). The DCC Ready ones MAY have resistor lighting circuits built in, but you may still have to install resistors, and they are all directional lighting when built.
Just make sure that the shape of the boards will fit into the loco, given its motor and weights configurations.
- Douglas
CSX RobertSorry, I thought that part was obvious.
It was completely obvious.
LastspikemikeYes, and?
And it's silly to ask people who prefer DC to stop buying locos with DCC and sound when that is the only way some of the locos they want are available (sorry, I thought that part was obvious).
Note that if you have an engine that's not decoder equipped - has a green light board with a dummy plug - it's still most likely going to affect how it runs. Most lightboards are set up to allow for "constant lighting", meaning the first several volts of power you apply go to the lights, then when you go above that amount the board sends power to the motor. The idea is you can turn the throttle down but not off and the lights will still be on, they won't turn off when you stop the engine.
That's all fine, but if you have older DC engines that don't have the light board, they're not going to work together that well since the older DC engines will start sooner and run faster. If you have both, you may find it better to just remove the light boards altogether and 'hardwire' everything.