It’s pretty straight forward, just wire it like Ed’s drawing of Traditional DC. Always make the engineer’s rail the same color wire keeping the polarity correct, I use red for the engineer’s rail. My layout is normal counter clockwise direction or east to west so the outside rail is red.Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Aging is not for wimps.
RR_MelOk, here is a quickie CAD drawing of what I would do. If this works for you I’ll wire it up for you.
Mel, this is amazing. It's exACTly what I was envisioning.
What do you mean you will wire it up for me? Are you coming over? Am I dreaming? And what do I owe you? Probably I cannot technically ask that on here, so I'll add that I'm kidding. But yes, it works for me.
-Matt
Returning to model railroading after 40 years and taking unconscionable liberties with the SP&S, Northern Pacific and Great Northern roads in the '40s and '50s.
snjroy...My point in my precious message was mostly about mixing the traditional common-rail, two power pack wiring to a combined DC-DCC wiring. I can't see how you can go from DC to DCC at the flick of a single switch with that arrangement, at least between the power sources and the track...
4PDT center off switch. The switch goes between the power packs and the block selector switches. One set of four poles goes to the power packs, two to each pack (whether using common rail or not). You treat the center four poles just like you did the power packs before, and the other set of four poles goes to the DCC system. You can wire the DCC system to just two poles and the block selector switches will select between DCC and off when in DCC mode, or you can also jumper the DCC system to the other two poles and both sides of the block selector swicthes will be DCC.
7j43k If you're running common rail, you can do it with a SPDT toggle switch. Center goes to the layout, each outer goes to the appropriate supply. The two power packs are treated as one supply ON THE COMMON SIDE ONLY. If you were running non-common rail, they DO make a 6PDT toggle switch. $19 at Mouser: https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nidec-Copal/ET610N13-Z?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtFyPk3yBMYYJQMYdIqGZzQJeN4h7eYntk%3D You could also do it with relays, if the mood struck you. Ed
If you're running common rail, you can do it with a SPDT toggle switch. Center goes to the layout, each outer goes to the appropriate supply. The two power packs are treated as one supply ON THE COMMON SIDE ONLY.
If you were running non-common rail, they DO make a 6PDT toggle switch. $19 at Mouser:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Nidec-Copal/ET610N13-Z?qs=sGAEpiMZZMtFyPk3yBMYYJQMYdIqGZzQJeN4h7eYntk%3D
You could also do it with relays, if the mood struck you.
Ed
Why do you think you would need 6PDT switches? You only need DPDT (Double Pole Double Throw) switches - one double pole for each power pack and the center teminals would go to the block.
EDIT - After reading back through the thread again, I think you may be refering to swicthing between DC and DCC. If that's the case, you would need a 4PDT, whether you're using common rail or not. In theory, with common rail you could use a DPDT (but still not a SPDT) by having a comon bwteen the DCC system and the power pack common, but I wouldn't recommend it.
Ok, here is a quickie CAD drawing of what I would do. If this works for you I’ll wire it up for you.9 DPDT center off toggles
I second Kevin!
"By the way... BRAVO on the quality of your "crude" drawing.
It was easy to understand and interpret. The addition of an easy to interpret drawing will always get you better answers."
Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Ha, there you go! Thanks for the info.
Ed, I ran my previous 4X6 layout for years that way. You can run two locos on one powerpack, but the controls are obviously more primitive. But I quickly found out that running two locos on a small mainline is not that enjoyable, unless you run your locos very slowly. It was OK with my slow geared steam - i would run one lumber train and one mining train pulled by Shays and Heislers. Nice and slow, on the same line. It was neat. In fact, now that I have a larger layout, I don't run my geared steam as much as I did with my small pike. I should learn to be more patient.
Anyway, I digress. My point in my precious message was mostly about mixing the traditional common-rail, two power pack wiring to a combined DC-DCC wiring. I can't see how you can go from DC to DCC at the flick of a single switch with that arrangement, at least between the power sources and the track. I could imagine a major DPDT switch that turns off the 110 volt connections, turning on either the DCC system OR the DC Powerpacks, with a middle OFF point to ease the transition. But the current may reach the other systems and harm them if no other switches are involved... Perhaps someone like you or Mel can figure out a way to do it otherwhise.
Simon
Simon's point is interesting. While tradition* for DC block wiring uses two power packs, there's no need IF you will only run one loco at a time. Then all you need are essentially kill switches, and the blocks to "kill".
Staying with the common rail theme, then all you need for each block is an SPST (plain on/off switch).
The two power pack approach becomes necessary if you want to run two trains at once. And if it's only you, maybe you just don't want to. It's hard enough to manage one train.
*I think the tradition of two cabs is because it's not much harder to wire for two than for one. So two is sorta "free". Three or more gets into some fancier switching. In my old club, we had eight cabs, and the dispatch panel was covered with rotary cab switches. They are NOT a delight.
The wiring of eight cabs is not all that difficult. You still only need two wires out to each block, though there WERE a lot of blocks.
But DCC is INFINITELY better than what we had!
Hi there. I said three blocks for the mainline thinking you might have two locos on the mainline, and one switcher that goes on the mainline for switching operations. When switching, the other locos need a place to "rest" while the switcher is active.
As for the power sources, using two powerpacks makes it a bit more complicated if you also want DCC. One powerpack is easy because you can just switch between the DC power source and the DCC system. Two powerpacks makes it much more complicated and risky. Frankly, your layout is not that large, not sure two power packs are that useful.
Note that for BOTH styles, there is a handedness to the track. You'll see if you got it right when you first try running trains.
And be SURE to get the center-off style. That's how you can store your engines.
7j43khere's a picture of a "layout" with 4 blocks
For those still waiting for Amazon to deliver the books they ordered two days ago, here's a picture of a "layout" with 4 blocks, wired in the traditional way:
Here's a picture of a layout wired with common rail:
Note that it is Extremely Dumb to just run only that one common wire to your layout. When the locomotive is on the other side of the layout from the common wire connection, it will be using a goodly length of rail in its circuit. And, of course, using a number of rail joiners to conduct the electricity. Or not.
LastspikemikeOr you can run both sides of your wiring through DPDT switches instead of only the Block control wires through SPDT switches. But why?
Hi Mike. As to the why, I'm not sure why, except that I think I can picture the DPDT method and intuitively "get" what's happening there, while I haven't yet fully grok'd what you've outlined. I'm sure it's all there, but I would need to sit down with a drawing pad and read your replies again and draw a schematic of what you've described. Then it might make more sense, since I learn best visually.
But regardless, it sounded like you just told me I could connect more than one pair of wires to the DC terminals on my power pack. I just wanted to confirm that's what you're saying, because that's a surprise. I thought you were going to say that each set of bus wires coming back from the blocks has to have its own power pack. But if I understood correctly, even Mel is using just two power packs. I still don't get it, unless it's the comment you made about all the block switches being strung along one wire.
Wo, I think a light bulb just went on in my head. Maybe.
snjroyYes, Ed is right, you need to figure out operating scenarios in order to define your blocks. The good news is that, it's quite easy to add a block later if you find that you cannot do the operations you want. You need at least two blocks on the mainline (in red in your picture), and one for the yard.
It's probably buried back in one of my replies or the original post, but I think I did mention that I already know what ops I want and it's pretty straightforward:
I don't envision running all three at once, but certainly the mainline train would be running continuously while I spot cars up the branch or build trains in the yard.
I had thought three main blocks for all that, just wasn't sure what the boundaries of the blocks would be around the C and D turnouts, which is where all those three operational areas touch each other. How do you figure "at least two" blocks on the mainline? Is it just because of its length, or because of the location or all the turnouts, or what...?
I'm going to pick up some of the more recent wiring books as soon as I can, but I think I've understood the basics of what my options are. The chief thing I still don't get is, when all those big wires come back from their respective blocks to the control panel, and each one gets a DPDT switch, and I have, say, a minimum of 4 or 5 DPDT switches and possibly as many as maybe 15 -- how do so many switches get wired into just one or two power packs? Ed only said this:
7j43kOnce those teeny wires get down below, you can connect them to the bigger wires that travel farther. In this case, to the center two terminals on your DPDT center off switches. Those wires feed power to each and every block you are creating.
...and he tantalizingly refused to give more clues until I school myself with the books. If you all maintain Ed's wall o' silence, very well. I'll go read. But I'm hoping one of you just can't contain yourself and will explain this last hole in my understanding of how the blocks are wired to the power source.
I'm going to draw a picture of what I think this looks like. Might take a day.
Thanks
Yes, Ed is right, you need to figure out operating scenarios in order to define your blocks. The good news is that, it's quite easy to add a block later if you find that you cannot do the operations you want. You need at least two blocks on the mainline (in red in your picture), and one for the yard. If you put a passenger station inside the North siding, you could put a block pretty much parrallel to the siding (between A2 and b2). That way, you could run one passenger train, and one freight, with one resting on a siding while the other passes by... And both could sit while you do some switching. Other gaps would be C3 and G3 for the yard.
Anyway, just a thought.
crossthedog Hi guys. Let's take a deep breath. I think Mike's comment about the thought experiments may have been directed to me, not to Kevin, and I didn't take it negatively.
Hi guys. Let's take a deep breath. I think Mike's comment about the thought experiments may have been directed to me, not to Kevin, and I didn't take it negatively.
It's not a large layout, so it should not be rocket science. Figure out how many locos you want to 1) sit on the layout; and 2) operate at the same time. Then figure out the rest from there. If you are only speaking of one or two locos, I would refer to the KISS principle. And do consider going DCC full-time. That will simplify things a lot.
One thing is for sure, your DC/DCC switch should apply to ALL of your layout, not just one question. Locos crossing a DCC section to a DC section will smoke, including the diesels .
Hi guys. Let's take a deep breath. I think Mike's comment about the thought experiments may have been directed to me, not to Kevin, and I didn't take it negatively. I view all this feedback as people trying in good faith to help and share their experience. And I'm going back through all the replies repeatedly, reading more carefully each time and getting a bit more of a picture that -- by necessity -- is a sort of patchwork or mosaic of many members' visions of how things should be.
Thanks again.
7j43k So Mike is saying that the power pack is in series with the layout wiring. Or something.
I have no idea what he was trying to say... or something.
I asked for a wiring diagram, and he questioned my intelligence.
LastspikemikeIf thought experiments are difficult for you I suggest you draw a diagram.
Whatever.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Oh, I see.
It's another word for "connected". So Mike is saying that the power pack is in series with the layout wiring. Or something.
Note that, using your description, as soon as two block toggles are on at the same time, the system is no longer "in series".
I had the impression that Mike was trying to explain the difference between regular two wire block wiring and common-return block wiring. And that he thought the difference was that the latter was somehow "in series". I guess with that power pack he mentions.
7j43k So how is ONE powerpack wired in series, Mike?
Ed,
I am 99.9% sure you understand all this already.
A complete electrical circuit is a power source, conductors, load, and a pathway for current to return to the power source through the load.
Series circuits have only one path for current to flow through the load(s).
Parallel circuits have seperate pathways through the loads, and will apply equal voltage potential to each load.
Series/Parallel circuits combine these features.
It is obvious that this is not understood by all.
Lastspikemike Common Rail and bus wires take power to all locomotives through just two wires: the current draw adds up in the bus wire(s). That's in effect wiring your powerpack in series (until the very end of course, each pair of feeders and each locomotive is in parallel). All of the electrical load is carried by the bus wires all of the time.
Common Rail and bus wires take power to all locomotives through just two wires: the current draw adds up in the bus wire(s). That's in effect wiring your powerpack in series (until the very end of course, each pair of feeders and each locomotive is in parallel). All of the electrical load is carried by the bus wires all of the time.
Wiring in series is setting up multiples of the same two-wire electrical item (light bulb, resistor, capacitor) with the output of one connected to the input of the next.
Here is an example:
Note that ONE thing cannot be wired in series. So how is ONE powerpack wired in series, Mike?
peahrensThe Kalmbach "The DCC Guide", which covers most subjects, including wiring.
I read that book while working on a friend's layout with DCC. It was probably the first edition of the title.
I found it very helpful.
There is another Kalmbach book, Basic DCC Wiring, that sounds similar in content, but I have not read it.
Some random comments on DCC aspects:
1. On books, I liked the Kalmbach "The DCC Guide", which covers most subjects, including wiring. I have edition 1, which is fine. A couple of favorite websites were useful for more detail:
https://wiringfordcc.com/track.htm
Wiring for DCC - DCCWiki
2. On power to track, I relied on (a) soldering nearly all rail joints, then (b) adding feeders at 6' max spacing. (Occasional short (unsoldered) rail pieces and turnout parts got their own feeders so all rail was powered via a soldered connection.) That spacing means that the juice from a feeder to a loco has to travel no more than 3' of rail, since the loco is always within 3' of a feeder. I had seen that (for HO, nickle silver rail) as a guide in more than one place. After installing, do read about the DCC setup "quarter test" to ensure the setup is adequate for the booster (or subdistrict circuit breaker) to sense a short (and trip) on any piece of rail on the layout.
Paul
Modeling HO with a transition era UP bent
7j43kSome people like common rail, some don't. I don't.
I also dislike common rail wiring.
We have had discussions about which books are the best for learning the ins-and-outs of DC wiring.
Outcomes of these discussions are that there are a lot of books out there, and none of them describe wiring the way Sheldon or I do it, and Sheldon and I approach wiring differently from one another.
For my suggestion, I think "HO Primer" from Kalmbach has a good chapter on the basics of DC wiring, and is a good place to start.
Linn Wescott's and Paul Mallory's books are excellent, but are far more complicated than is needed today. If you were going to build a layout that complex, the clear choice today would be DCC for most people.
Matt,
The thing Mike is trying to talk about is "common rail" wiring. In this case, the block control switch only controls ONE wire to the block, instead of the TWO I described. Some people like common rail, some don't. I don't.
Get those books! Then you can read all about it yourself.
LastspikemikeTwo wire Block wiring is parallel wiring. Two wire bus wiring is series wiring for most of the length of wire.
You need to post a diagram to explain this.
"Series wiring for most of the length of the wire" makes no sense.
Yup, read more books. It's good for yuh!
In answer to your question:
The RAIL feeders should be very short. That's because they're very small. And that's because big wires soldered to your track look stupid.
Once those teeny wires get down below, you can connect them to the bigger wires that travel farther. In this case, to the center two terminals on your DPDT center off switches. Those wires feed power to each and every block you are creating.
You might find that a block has three track sections, each with two wires hanging down. You've got to "tag" each of those three with your fat wires.
So now you have two wires from each DPDT center off (center terminals) to each block. HOORAY!
What's next?
I'm gonna be mean, and tell you to look in the books. NOT because I love being mean (which I do), but because they explain it much better, with pictures with circles and arrows......
Persevere, Horatio. Because when you've waded through this once, you look back and think: SO obvious.
Remember when getting a spoonful of Cheerios into your mouth was a challenge? Not anymore, I'll wager. Same thing.
We'll help you out! But not with the Cheerios; you're on your own there, pal.