7j43k Looks like you've got this under control, especially with the guidance of CSXRobert. He clearly knows what he's talking about, and you won't go wrong following his advice. I'll turn my attention elsewhere. Ed
Looks like you've got this under control, especially with the guidance of CSXRobert. He clearly knows what he's talking about, and you won't go wrong following his advice.
I'll turn my attention elsewhere.
Ed
Thanka for all the help Ed. I appreciate it. Happy browsing!
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
I did a thorough inspection yesterday as this was my first thought. But I could not see anything that was rubbing or any small debris that was hanging up.
That it always 'jerks' at the same angular position makes me think a piece of magnetic debris is in there hanging up the armature, or there is one bad comm segment. But I suspect checking either one involves opening it up...
Overmod JDawg I am not, AM NOT, de-soldering all the connections and putting it in another locomotive. Sorry! Can't blame you there! I was kinda ASSuming the thing was socketed... But can you clip the two motor leads and 'sub in' a known-good motor of at least similar characteristics?
JDawg I am not, AM NOT, de-soldering all the connections and putting it in another locomotive. Sorry!
Can't blame you there! I was kinda ASSuming the thing was socketed...
But can you clip the two motor leads and 'sub in' a known-good motor of at least similar characteristics?
I can't tell if you are being funny or serious. Either way, I'm not taking it apart again. Plus I don't have a good motor on hand.
Clip motor leads? I think you are joshing.
I will trying to be posting a photo blog with all the steps I took over the weekend. I reccomend you look for this thread and see what is what. I'm sure all of you will have lots of tips. Just no put downs eh? I'm very satisfied with the result.
JDawgI am not, AM NOT, de-soldering all the connections and putting it in another locomotive. Sorry!
But can you clip the two motor leads and 'sub in' a known-good motor of at least similar characteristics for a test?
Mel as I recall had a pretty good rig for test-loading motors not installed in locomotives... just a permag motor turned as a generator, with known resistance and meters in circuit...
Overmod This makes me want to have him try the decoder in an engine with known-good motor and driveline. All the signs I see point to a rotation-specific defect in the motor. As he won't reverse the leads, and probably doesn't want to open it up to inspect, I think we have to be resigned to hoping that whatever-it-is "wears in" over a few hours as he hopes.
This makes me want to have him try the decoder in an engine with known-good motor and driveline.
All the signs I see point to a rotation-specific defect in the motor. As he won't reverse the leads, and probably doesn't want to open it up to inspect, I think we have to be resigned to hoping that whatever-it-is "wears in" over a few hours as he hopes.
Ok ok, you talked me I to it. So I have reversed the leads and... drumroll please...
The motor still catches in the "forward" position. However, the problem is steadily getting better. Now the motor only catches for a brief moment before resuming instead of bringing everything to a sudden halt.
But I am not, AM NOT, de-soldering all the connections and putting it in another locomotive. Sorry!
tstage wjstix Otherwise, page 72 of the Loksound 5 manual (11.1.4) explains how to do the "Automatic calibration of the motor" where the decoder basically sets itself. Might not hurt to try that and see. I totally 2nd this recommendation. Set CV54 to "0", return your throttle to operating mode then press F1. Be sure to do this on a decent length of track because your locomotive will take off like a rocket for about 2' then stop quickly. I've performed this feature on a few locomotives that I've installed Loksound decoders in and it has improved smoothness noticeably. Tom
wjstix Otherwise, page 72 of the Loksound 5 manual (11.1.4) explains how to do the "Automatic calibration of the motor" where the decoder basically sets itself. Might not hurt to try that and see.
I totally 2nd this recommendation. Set CV54 to "0", return your throttle to operating mode then press F1. Be sure to do this on a decent length of track because your locomotive will take off like a rocket for about 2' then stop quickly. I've performed this feature on a few locomotives that I've installed Loksound decoders in and it has improved smoothness noticeably.
Tom
This was the first thing I did. Unfortunately it doesn't fix the problem. I had to Manuel adjust these and other CVs.
wjstixOtherwise, page 72 of the Loksound 5 manual (11.1.4) explains how to do the "Automatic calibration of the motor" where the decoder basically sets itself. Might not hurt to try that and see.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
When you said earlier "...because the motor spun nicely before conversion (DC power...", I guess I misinterpreted that to mean the locomotive ran well on DC. However, if you have to "give it a lot of gas" to get it going, that's not running well.
That earlier suggestion to flip the leads to the motor is a REALLY good one. If the problem flips, too, it's the decoder. If it doesn't, it's the motor.
Sounds like a worthwhile thing to do.
7j43kNope. Nobody uses pure DC. Everyone uses some variation of "pulsed power", which turns on and off, typically at 120 times a second. Pure DC was found years ago to be pretty sucky for running trains.
7j43kSo why would the power being off on DCC be a problem, but not be a problem with DC?
You're half right, pertty much nobody uses pure DC (though I have seen battery powered throttles that do), but most DC power packs do not go to zero between pulses. For example, if the power pack is set to 1 volt, it could vary between 0.75 and 1.25 volts (these numbers are just examples, not actual values from an actual power pack), but it will not typically go to zero between pulses. If they used straight rectified AC current, they would, but I don't know of any power packs that do that. All the ones I've used have some filtering on the output that smooths it out somewhat and prevents it from droping to zero. The output from a DCC decoder does go to zero between pulses.
7j43kIn addition, DCC has MUCH more ability to run a motor smoothly, due to the rather incredible sophistication of the decoder output.
And if not tuned correctly that "rather incredible sophistication" can make it worse.
7j43k CSX Robert ...the DC power is constantly applied... Nope. Nobody uses pure DC. Everyone uses some variation of "pulsed power", which turns on and off, typically at 120 times a second. Pure DC was found years ago to be pretty sucky for running trains. With a decoder, as mentioned, the power is not constant, it is continuously turned on and off. At low speeds if the bind sometimes occurs while the power is off it could cause much more noticeable rough running. So why would the power being off on DCC be a problem, but not be a problem with DC? In addition, DCC has MUCH more ability to run a motor smoothly, due to the rather incredible sophistication of the decoder output. If JJF is curing this problem by "running the motor in", it's because he did something bad while he was working on it. IF it's a mechanical problem, since it only happens in one direction, I expect the problem to be in a misaligned bearing. Or it could be a missing thrust washer. Or a bearing clamped too tight. Or...... But remember: it ran fine before he started. Ed
CSX Robert ...the DC power is constantly applied...
Nope. Nobody uses pure DC. Everyone uses some variation of "pulsed power", which turns on and off, typically at 120 times a second. Pure DC was found years ago to be pretty sucky for running trains.
With a decoder, as mentioned, the power is not constant, it is continuously turned on and off. At low speeds if the bind sometimes occurs while the power is off it could cause much more noticeable rough running.
So why would the power being off on DCC be a problem, but not be a problem with DC?
In addition, DCC has MUCH more ability to run a motor smoothly, due to the rather incredible sophistication of the decoder output.
If JJF is curing this problem by "running the motor in", it's because he did something bad while he was working on it. IF it's a mechanical problem, since it only happens in one direction, I expect the problem to be in a misaligned bearing. Or it could be a missing thrust washer. Or a bearing clamped too tight. Or......
But remember: it ran fine before he started.
It ran well for a DC locomotive, yes. But it ran fast. I had to give it quite a few volts before it started to move. And it ran very fast down the test track.
Instalation time- I hook up the decoder and test run. Very clearly the motor was stopping and starting because of the decoders pulsing or BEMF. Once I changed CVs 116 and 117 the problem improved drastically. Then, CV 56's value was drastically decreased, making the effect of BEMF much less at slow speeds. Adjusting basic cvs like start, mid and max voltage all but eliminated the problem. The motor has a definite "catch". I've had motors that do the same thing. But as I said, after running these motors for a while, they work themselves out.
Now, it's very possible that I made an oops when I installed, it's happened before and it will happen again. However, Nothing I could have done or did do would have caused the motor to catch Like it was. In fact, on the paperwork for the loco, they recommend running it for a while at various speeds and directions To allow the brushings to seat properly. I did this In dc, but evidently not enough.
Again, I may have goofed on the install, but I don't think that this can simply be chalked up to user fault.
Anyways, mini rant over, I thank all of you for your suggestions and tips. I love this forum and all of its members. Yes that includes you, 7j43k, if that is even your real name.
P.S. I know its Ed.
CSX Robert 7j43k In DC, there was nothing to "grind out", since it ran well. If there IS something, it would have to be something you did while you were working on the conversion. Not necessarily. It sounds like there may be a slight physical bind or "catch" somewhere. In DC, when you first apply enough power to turn the motor it will turn until it reaches that bind - while in the locomotive with the shell on probably not even enough to notice - and will stop, but once you apply enough to overcome the bind, it will continue to turn without stopping because the DC power is constantly applied and overcoming the bind when encountered. If the bind is slight and only occuring once per motor revolution it probably wouldn't be noticeable and the loco would appear to run smoothly. With a decoder, as mentioned, the power is not constant, it is continuously turned on and off. At low speeds if the bind sometimes occurs while the power is off it could cause much more noticeable rough running.
7j43k In DC, there was nothing to "grind out", since it ran well. If there IS something, it would have to be something you did while you were working on the conversion.
Not necessarily. It sounds like there may be a slight physical bind or "catch" somewhere. In DC, when you first apply enough power to turn the motor it will turn until it reaches that bind - while in the locomotive with the shell on probably not even enough to notice - and will stop, but once you apply enough to overcome the bind, it will continue to turn without stopping because the DC power is constantly applied and overcoming the bind when encountered. If the bind is slight and only occuring once per motor revolution it probably wouldn't be noticeable and the loco would appear to run smoothly. With a decoder, as mentioned, the power is not constant, it is continuously turned on and off. At low speeds if the bind sometimes occurs while the power is off it could cause much more noticeable rough running.
Exactly what I meant, thanks Robert. The problem is definitely diminishing a the more the motor runs.
Overmod- I never got to reverse the leads as I figured out the CVs first. I don't want to even look at the thing twice, let alone swap wires! Thank you so much for your help though.
7j43kIn DC, there was nothing to "grind out", since it ran well. If there IS something, it would have to be something you did while you were working on the conversion.
But what happened when you reversed the leads?
Hello All,
wjstixThis may be an example of where having Decoder Pro would be a great help, as you most likely could just like uncheck a box to turn off BEMF and Decoder Pro would do the calculation of what goes into what bit for you.
As has been suggested, download DecoderPro for your computer; Mac, PC or Linux.
Open DecoderPro, add a loco and assign it the decoder you are using from the list of folders. When opening the program you might get an error message saying that you are not connected..." disregard this.
You will need to assign it an ID like "ESU Test" (upper right).
Go to the "Open comprehensive programmer" (lower right).
Once the programming pane opens, look under the "Motor" tab and turn BEMF "Off".
Then go to the CVs tab and look for the value in the CV(s) you want to change. Hint: look for the CV(s) that are highlighted. Those are the values you are looking for.
Use your throttle to change those CV values as you would normally.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
7j43k JDawg ...the motor spun nicely before conversion (DC power), but now.... I wonder at the point of seeing "if the trouble grinds itself out." In DC, there was nothing to "grind out", since it ran well. If there IS something, it would have to be something you did while you were working on the conversion. It ran fine before you did it. Ed
JDawg ...the motor spun nicely before conversion (DC power), but now....
...the motor spun nicely before conversion (DC power), but now....
I wonder at the point of seeing "if the trouble grinds itself out."
In DC, there was nothing to "grind out", since it ran well. If there IS something, it would have to be something you did while you were working on the conversion.
It ran fine before you did it.
In dc the motor spun much faster, not allowing the catch. After running it a while, it is improving.
One problem is that according the Loksound 5 manual, there are 10 different CVs whose settings affect load compensation. For example, it says lowering the value in CV 56 can make the engine run more smoothly in the lower speed step range.
This may be an example of where having Decoder Pro would be a great help, as you most likely could just like uncheck a box to turn off BEMF and Decoder Pro would do the calculation of what goes into what bit for you.
Of course, since you said you installed a Loksound decoder, maybe you already have the LokProgrammer set up? That's almost a necessity with ESU sound decoders.
Otherwise, page 72 of the Loksound 5 manual (11.1.4) explains how to do the "Automatic calibration of the motor" where the decoder basically sets itself. Might not hurt to try that and see. Otherwise, CV 49's default value is 19. Maybe just do trial-and-error; set it at 0 and see what happens, then 1, then 2 etc. and see how it goes. Or turn the other BEMF related CVs like 53-54-55-56 to zero and see if that shuts it down.
Update to the previous updates update...
Going to let motor run for a while. See if the trouble grinds itself out. Thanks for everyone's paitence and help. This has been my most difficult install by far
JDawgManuel (SIC) chapter 11.1.3 titled EMF measurement principle. Basically the decoder cuts power and measures the EMF voltage. That is why the motor stops and starts. I played around with CV 116 and depending on the value, the motor stopped for a longer or a shorter time.
JDawgProblem is far from fixed but we are making progress.
Good to know!
Thanks for the update!!!
Problem is far from fixed but we are making progress.
The loco now runs perfectly in reverse, but going forward it stalls?, catches?, anyway it stops rotating and hums. Can't see any obstruction,
Update, I marked the motor and it always stops in the same spot. Note, I don't think that this was totally the problem, more of a contributing factor.
Manuel chapter 11.1.3 titled EMF measurement principle. Basically the decoder cuts power and measures the EMF voltage. That is why the motor stops and starts. I played around with CV 116 and depending on the value, the motor stopped for a longer or a shorter time.
JDawgI figured it out!
And...
I figured it out!
So here is the working theory. The decoder is kicking or pulsing the motor. That is why it is Running jerky. Not going to lie, CV 49 is throwing me