LastspikemikeSo, clearly, there is not a commonly accepted definition of common rail.
I am pretty sure there has been a universally understood definition of common rail DC wiring for 60+ years.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
CSX Robert Lastspikemike Looking at the 220 schematic again I see how Atlas indicates the center off flow through for the Common terminal. The lower Cab B reversing switch is shown in the center off position and the direct connection is shown. Cab A reversing switch is shown in the live position activating the Block output connections. You would never actually operate the 220 in this configuration.
Lastspikemike Looking at the 220 schematic again I see how Atlas indicates the center off flow through for the Common terminal. The lower Cab B reversing switch is shown in the center off position and the direct connection is shown. Cab A reversing switch is shown in the live position activating the Block output connections. You would never actually operate the 220 in this configuration.
Looking at the 220 schematic again I see how Atlas indicates the center off flow through for the Common terminal. The lower Cab B reversing switch is shown in the center off position and the direct connection is shown. Cab A reversing switch is shown in the live position activating the Block output connections. You would never actually operate the 220 in this configuration.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Thge schematic you're looking at must not be the same as the one Greg posted then(which is also available on the Atlas website). That schematic shows both cabs A and B in the center position, with the cab inputs connected directly to the right side outputs and no connection to common (because again, with mutiple 220's you can not pick up common until after the cab direction switches in the last 220).
I was able to see and download the track plan, I will get back to you as soon as I can look it over.
To the right of your screen, should be your account profile info. There should be a button that says "messages" - that is the private message portal.
If it's not there or does not work, don't be concerned, not all the features work correctly for everyone, the software is old.....
Be back to you soon,
Sheldon
There actually is a minor error in the schematic, but it's pretty obvious how it's supposed to be. In the cab B reversing switch, one of the connections to the C circuit is missing.
LastspikemikeIn particular, the circuit to the "common rail" output from the same polarity input is not shown
The circuit to the common rail output from the "same polarity input" is not shown because the common rail output is not necessarily wired to the same polarity and is not wired directly to the cab inputs. The common goes after the cab direction switch because which polarity of each input it goes to depends on the direction switch for that input.
LastspikemikeDescribe the line on the schematic that shows how the common rail power flows from either Cab A or B input terminal through the 220 to power the input terminal on the ganged 220.
LastspikemikeThe inner of the two input terminals flow though the C common rail connection according to the schematics
No they don't. The common rail connection goes to the two cab direction switches and whether or not it is connected to an input and if so which one is determnined by the direction switches.
Here is a pic of the layout - that is if I did the correct things.....
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Ablebakercharlie jjdamnit Another option would be to use terminal strips (A.K.A. terminal blocks or barrier strips). These come in "sizes" from 2- to 10-terminals. To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section. Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common. Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks. For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post. Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and... Hope this helps. Hello All, Thanks very much everyone for your input re my wiring question! Much appreciated. The first response by jjdamnit addressed my main issue re the Atlas 215 selectors. I want to take the approach of wiring each block as a stand alone to make trouble shooting easier. Because something always goes wrong with wiring, right? Or is it just me? :) I couldn't visualize using the terminal strips for the second leg (that's the correct term, right?) for all the blocks but now it seems simple. I got the Atlas selectors as I thought they were a reliable means for blocking but it sounds like there are some better alternatives. Since I bought them I am going to go with them for now but will start researching alternatives. Sheldon, if you read this, I would be interested in your approach to DC wiring. I would love to do a wireless set up but internet searches have not come up with success. Once again, thanks everyone. I enjoy reading the spirited debate on layout preferences and am continually amazed by the wealth of information that can be obtained from the membership by simply just posting a question! charles Charles, I would be happy to help. My first question is do you have a track plan you can post or email? Then I would like to know a little about what you would like to be able to do, how you would like to operate your layout. If you know how the private message feature works on this forum, and yours is working, feel free to send me a private measage. Sheldon
Ablebakercharlie jjdamnit Another option would be to use terminal strips (A.K.A. terminal blocks or barrier strips). These come in "sizes" from 2- to 10-terminals. To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section. Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common. Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks. For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post. Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and... Hope this helps. Hello All, Thanks very much everyone for your input re my wiring question! Much appreciated. The first response by jjdamnit addressed my main issue re the Atlas 215 selectors. I want to take the approach of wiring each block as a stand alone to make trouble shooting easier. Because something always goes wrong with wiring, right? Or is it just me? :) I couldn't visualize using the terminal strips for the second leg (that's the correct term, right?) for all the blocks but now it seems simple. I got the Atlas selectors as I thought they were a reliable means for blocking but it sounds like there are some better alternatives. Since I bought them I am going to go with them for now but will start researching alternatives. Sheldon, if you read this, I would be interested in your approach to DC wiring. I would love to do a wireless set up but internet searches have not come up with success. Once again, thanks everyone. I enjoy reading the spirited debate on layout preferences and am continually amazed by the wealth of information that can be obtained from the membership by simply just posting a question! charles
jjdamnit Another option would be to use terminal strips (A.K.A. terminal blocks or barrier strips). These come in "sizes" from 2- to 10-terminals. To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section. Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common. Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks. For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post. Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and... Hope this helps.
To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section.
Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common.
Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks.
For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post.
Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and...
Hope this helps.
Hello All,
Thanks very much everyone for your input re my wiring question! Much appreciated.
The first response by jjdamnit addressed my main issue re the Atlas 215 selectors. I want to take the approach of wiring each block as a stand alone to make trouble shooting easier. Because something always goes wrong with wiring, right? Or is it just me? :) I couldn't visualize using the terminal strips for the second leg (that's the correct term, right?) for all the blocks but now it seems simple.
I got the Atlas selectors as I thought they were a reliable means for blocking but it sounds like there are some better alternatives. Since I bought them I am going to go with them for now but will start researching alternatives.
Sheldon, if you read this, I would be interested in your approach to DC wiring. I would love to do a wireless set up but internet searches have not come up with success.
Once again, thanks everyone. I enjoy reading the spirited debate on layout preferences and am continually amazed by the wealth of information that can be obtained from the membership by simply just posting a question!
charles
Charles, I would be happy to help. My first question is do you have a track plan you can post or email?
Then I would like to know a little about what you would like to be able to do, how you would like to operate your layout.
If you know how the private message feature works on this forum, and yours is working, feel free to send me a private measage.
Thank you very much for responding. I have enjoyed reading your posts since I have been "lurking" these past couple months and have wanted to get your input re a DC layout setup since that is your set-up choice vs DCC.
Now I must sheepishly admit I can't figure out how to send a PM - I looked in the profile / settings section and couldn't figure it out. Can you or someone else offer assistance? I would be happy to post /send the layoutplan and track pics for critique.
With much appreciation,
LastspikemikeTo understand my remark you need to understand that the two reversing switches in the 220 just always be set to center off when ganging the 220's. Terminal C is then not connected in any 220 in the gang except the last one.
i think what you're trying to say is that if the cab reversing switch is set to the center position, the C terminal is unconnected.
i don't believe the cab reversing section is intended to be set to the center.
RR_MelGood choice, Sheldon is the goto guy for DC wiring.
+1.
CharlesGood choice, Sheldon is the goto guy for DC wiring. Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Aging is not for wimps.
LastspikemikeSo which way is "clockwise" on a single track connecting two continuous running loops? And if the polarity of the exit from one loop is opposite to the polarity at the entry to the other loop which is the "correct" direction?
Did you actually read his post or just skim it? He talked about clockwise and counter clockwise specifically in reference to loops, as well as pointing out that "every layout is a little different and may require different solutions."
LastspikemikeIf you use Atlas 220 controllers there is no "main line" to have default polarity
The "mainline" when using Atlas 220 controllers is whatever is connected to the right-hand side outputs of the controller.
Lastspikemike If you use fully isolated blocks with independent polarity control (DPDT to each block) for each block which block is the main line?
You generally don't have independent direction control for each block (for each block on the mainline the direction is controlled by the cab currently selected, not an independent direction switch for that block), you have direction control for each cab and each reversing section, but again "every layout is a little different and may require different solutions."
Two parallel tracks should have the same "east - west" orientation and not require a reversing section.
The real problem here is the rest of the short sighted thinking about cab control and how to connect the track sections to the throttles. But this is all I have time for.
LastspikemikeIncidentally, it is actually confusing to refer to reversing sections and "main lines" as if these are different electrically. It makes more sense to realize that electrically speaking you automatically create two reversing sections as soon as you create one.
While you can change a train's travel direction with the direction switch, it can travel anywhere on the mainlines and will never change the direction it is physically pointing relative to the track. When the train traverses a reversing section, it can change the direction it is physically pointing, how is labeling that a reversing section confusing?
When you add a reversing section, either section of the layout could be considered a reversing section relative to the other (section 'A' reverses trains for section 'B' or section B reverses trains for section 'A'), but most layouts have a section that makes sense to have as the "mainline" with any reversing sections reversing trains relative to that mainline.
Overmod jjdamnit Since you are using Atlas controllers I suggest purchasing The Complete Atlas Wiring Book... Unfortunately, it is currently listed as Backorder on the Atlas website. At least two copies of the 2017 edition of this #12 are currently up on eBay for close to the listed price. I'm reasonably sure 'used' copies will show up on Amazon or some of the 'discount' book sites from time to time.
jjdamnit Since you are using Atlas controllers I suggest purchasing The Complete Atlas Wiring Book... Unfortunately, it is currently listed as Backorder on the Atlas website.
At least two copies of the 2017 edition of this #12 are currently up on eBay for close to the listed price. I'm reasonably sure 'used' copies will show up on Amazon or some of the 'discount' book sites from time to time.
Rich
Alton Junction
jjdamnitSince you are using Atlas controllers I suggest purchasing The Complete Atlas Wiring Book... Unfortunately, it is currently listed as Backorder on the Atlas website.
I forgot all my layouts have been common rail all with mutiple controllers
And I have one Y on my layout controlled by relays
Lastspikemike Incidentally, it is actually confusing to refer to reversing sections and "main lines" as if these are different electrically. It makes more sense to realize that electrically speaking you automatically create two reversing sections as soon as you create one.
Incidentally, it is actually confusing to refer to reversing sections and "main lines" as if these are different electrically. It makes more sense to realize that electrically speaking you automatically create two reversing sections as soon as you create one.
Conceptually this is bad way to view this, because, based on my 50 years of experience, it actually confuses people more.
Yes, you are also reversing the main, but, per my earlier comments, DC operation is much easier for operators to understand if reversing switches are orientated "east - west" relative to physical movement.
Every layout is a little different and may require different solutions, but the ability of an operator to look at a reversing switch and KNOW which way the train will move is a huge advantage.
Since reverse loops typically change that flow, they need a different convention, hence clockwise, counter clockwise.
See, this is why I'm not in these conversations any more.
If the original poster would like some help, he is welcome to send me a PM.
Kevin he is not going to post any pictures he refuses to do so
And I totallly agree with CSX Robert Sheldon and Kevin
I have been in this since about 1970 worked at real RR for 30 plus yrs in signal dept as lead signalman foreman and tech So as far as I can see the diag for the 220 is accurate I don't know what the expert on all things relative to MR thinks is wrong with it but after all he has only been in this for the last two years
He also goes on about his layout (no picts) and a club (name ???)
I never used any of the atlas controllers pcs thought I had some in a junk box can't find them I use just their switches over 100 on my layout still have a few of the old brass kits new in box kinda wonder if they changed the brass formula at some point cause those kits are still shiney no corrosion at all
LastspikemikeThe Atlas schematic for the 220 is not accurate as I previously noted. In particular, the circuit to the "common rail" output from the same polarity input is not shown. To understand my remark you need to understand that...
I cannot follow what you are stating.
Please post a corrected schematic drawing comparing it to the one that Greg showed, and also please include sketches outlining the 220 internal wiring design changes. That way I can understand your explanation.
LastspikemikeAtlas wiring book page 37 figures 5-6 and 5-7 show incorrect connections from powerpacks to the 220. The 220 packaging diagram is also incorrect.
The wiring diagrams provided by Atlas are correct.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would never recomment anyone use the Atlas system..
Like Sheldon, I would NEVER suggest anyone use the Atlas wiring components.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI've been staying out of these DC wiring threads because they are full of questionable or hard to understand advice.
Yes. They always get muddled up by inexperienced people giving bad advice about a subject they do not comprehend.
That is why I deleted my posts about DC reverse loop wiring. The replies full of incorrect information ruined the thread.
Only people that have successfully wired multiple DC layouts, and understand DC control, should be participating in these conversations.
gregc Lastspikemike each Cab is given its own reversing switch and the powerpack reversing switches are not used. the powerpack reversing switch can certainly be used on both the mainline and reversing sections
Lastspikemike each Cab is given its own reversing switch and the powerpack reversing switches are not used.
the powerpack reversing switch can certainly be used on both the mainline and reversing sections
I've been staying out of these DC wiring threads because they are full of questionable or hard to understand advice and I don't have the time to sort them out.
But first off, I would never recomment anyone use the Atlas system....
Second, the power pack reversing switches can be used as a "local direction switch" for the cab in question, but it is not really the best approach.
By only using the separate reversing switches established for the mainline and reverse loops, you can establish a protocal where the direction switches are always in the same position relative to the actual direction of travel, best defined as east/west on the main, and clockwise/counter clockwise in reverse loops.
Every time you change the power pack direction switch, you reverse this whole protocal changing everything down stream. Very confusing at best.
As an example, on my DC powered layout I use Aristo wireless throttles. The layout is designed and wired such that if you push the left direction button on the throttle, the train ALWAYS moves to you visual left, etc.
My reverse loops (of which there are just one loop, one wye, and one turntable) are wired in a semiautomatic fashion which maintains this directional continuity.
My entire layout is designed such that you are always viewing the trains as if you are facing north, left is west, right is east.
This is a distinct advantage for helping operators understand the layout, be they DC or DCC controled, but is a serious advantage on a DC layout direction switches set the direction of travel relative to the track, not the locomotive "front".
LastspikemikeThe Atlas 220 Controller is designed to work with common rail
there's no reason the 220 couldn't be used on a non-common rail layout. they are designed to plug into atlas 215 modules
Lastspikemikeand allows polarity to be reversed for Cab A relative to Cab B,
there's no need to reverse the polarity relative to the other cab. there is a need to independently control the polarity of both the reversing section and mainline
Lastspikemikeeach Cab is given its own reversing switch and the powerpack reversing switches are not used.
perhaps you can explain what is wrong with the Atlas wiring using the following diagram we can all see
LastspikemikeI just quoted what Atlas calls common rail in Chapter 3. They even have a diagram of a simple oval with one power pack, figure 3-1. You have to move on to Chapter 4 before Atlas adds a second Cab (powerpack). So, clearly, there is not a commonly accepted definition of common rail.
I don't have the Atlas book, so I'll take your word for it. As I said, every discussion I've seen has been about mutliple cab control, but that may just be because when someone has a question about common rail wiring that's usually what they are wanting to do. Allowing for that it's still a far cry from "all DC layouts are essentially common rail."
LastspikemikeThe Atlas 220 Controller is designed to work with common rail and allows polarity to be reversed for Cab A relative to Cab B, each Cab is given its own reversing switch and the powerpack reversing switches are not used.
The reason the Atlas 220 Controller has direction switches for the cabs is because with a reversing section you want to be able to reverse the cabs separately from the reversing section. If you were to use the power pack reversing switch, to traverse a loop you have to stop the train in the loop, throw the power pack reversing switch and the loop reversing switch, and then you can proceed out the other end. With the 220 controller you can throw the cab reversing switch while the train is in the loop and proceed through the loop without stopping. Without a reversing section you do not need the 220 controller and are free to use the power pack reversing switches.
richhotrainBut I always thought that Common Rail was a well defined method of wiring...
It is, at least for the 35+ years I've been model railroading every discussion of common rail wiring I've seen has refered to the same thing. "Common rail" wiring refers to a method of wiring a layout for multiple cab control where one rail and one terminal of each cab is wired to a common point. It doesn't refer to the number of feeders, the common rail can have one or a hundred and more, it's still "common rail wiring" if those feeders all tie into the same common point with the cabs. A single cab DC layout is not "common rail" wiring. Sure there is a common left rail and a common right rail, so some people may call that a common rail layout, but without having one of the rails tied into a common connection between two or more cabs, it is not "common rail" wiring as generally understood in model railroading parlance. Even if that single cab layout has multiple blocks that can be switched on or off through a single pole switch, it still would not generally be considered a "common rail" layout. What distinguishes "common rail" wiring is that common connection between the cabs.
RichCommon rail is just what its name says, there is one rail common through out the layout. In DCC both rails are common. The reason I don’t like or use common rail is it ties the direction of the DC locomotives locomotive to the same direction. By using two separate power packs one can operate a DC locomotive in each direction but that requires one power pack to be connected positive to negative on the common rail. I prefer to individually control the track polarity for each block individually, in both DC and DCC modes. Back when I was learning two rail power vs. Lionel three rail I decided it was easier to switch both rails when controlling my layout. Even as a teenager connecting the positive terminal of one power pack to the negative of the second power pack didn’t sound like the way to operate two trains. That was a decision of an early teenager and after 49 years and 10 months working in the electronics field nothing change even a little bit.Like I said it’s strictly my preference to switch both rails rather than take a chance of crossing the voltages of two power packs. I like the no brainer approach. Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
Lastspikemike "Common rail" does not have a fixed definition. Atlas Complete Wiring book describes common rail as a system with only one rail being gapped for electrical control. That allows two or more cabs to be conveniently connected without doubling up all the block wiring but only blocks are needed to create a common rail system. One powerpack will do. As is commonly accepted.
"Common rail" does not have a fixed definition. Atlas Complete Wiring book describes common rail as a system with only one rail being gapped for electrical control. That allows two or more cabs to be conveniently connected without doubling up all the block wiring but only blocks are needed to create a common rail system. One powerpack will do. As is commonly accepted.
gregc richhotrain A lot of the replies seem contradictory to one another. can you site a specific example. i only see confusing lengthy replies that may be self-contradictory
richhotrain A lot of the replies seem contradictory to one another.
can you site a specific example. i only see confusing lengthy replies that may be self-contradictory
Read back through the thread, and you will see what I am talking about. Who is to decide who is right and who is wrong? It renders the thread useless in my opinion.