SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL When Dave, or anyone, posts a reasonable drawing of the layout in question, I will offer my serious opinion on how to wire it. Sheldon, Dave has been communicating directly with me via email about the issues he has been having and working towards the best solution. He has a good handle on the problem, and is learning the realities of DC reverse loops in a very hands-on manner. The responses in the thread don't quite tell the whole story. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL When Dave, or anyone, posts a reasonable drawing of the layout in question, I will offer my serious opinion on how to wire it.
Sheldon,
Dave has been communicating directly with me via email about the issues he has been having and working towards the best solution.
He has a good handle on the problem, and is learning the realities of DC reverse loops in a very hands-on manner.
The responses in the thread don't quite tell the whole story.
-Kevin
That's fine, glad you are trying to help. I have felt from the very beginning that there was not enough information.
And if the layout is anything like how it appears in the photos, than it will be difficult at best to create an easy operational senerio.
Sheldon
Living the dream.
When Dave, or anyone, posts a reasonable drawing of the layout in question, I will offer my serious opinion on how to wire it.
Without such information, myself and others have already offered plenty of "theory" on the subject.
Base on the pictures posted of this layout in the other thread, I have my doubts that there is any really good solution.
And yes, I have some set rigid ideas about good layout design and DC control - based on 50 years of experiance and some very good teachers, who in their day helped put men on the moon and designed top secret radar.
Lastspikemike - I understand your theory on this, but feel as though you are not explaining yourself well for those who don't already understand the topic fully.
And I doubt that your approach would be very effective on what appears to be a very small layout. Of course your theory/method works, but it fails several basic operational requirements in my view.
Just my opinion, but reverse loops on small layouts are not practical.
As Dave seems to be finding out, they are cumbersome and complex.
I am a DC user, but I have long said that small layouts actually benefit from DCC in ways that do not matter as much on larger layouts.
So, here I am, waiting to see an actual track plan to offer a complete system wiring diagram that will work.
Dave
I gave up n the two DPDT switches to control the turnback and have gone back to one. Still having difficulty synchronizing the DPDT switch when the train leaves the block and enters the main line.
I am now aware of the need to block off the adjoining and turnback blocks. I'll let all know what happens.
Regards,
Dave K.
The Atlas Wiring Book, Page 31, explainss how to fix my problem, I believe. Need to add more gaps.
Agreed, I just wanted to show that DC reverse loop and reverse polarity issues can be dealt with in a number of ways that do not involve flipping switches while the trains are running.
Yes, DCC allows the trains to just run anywhere, without regard for polarity or block boundries. And for some track plans, and some layout concepts that is an important benefit.
For other track plans and concepts, not as much.
My other point is this, I don't need or want reverse loops as part of my mainline to accomplish my goals, so toggle switches or expensive auto reversing equipment is not a factor for me either way.
The one reverse loop I will have will be hidden from view and still be easy to operate, only used to stage trains on the branch line.
It is all about what your priorities are.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The point is it did not take me any more actions, or any great complexity to turn the train on the wye compared to DCC. Keep this in mind, turning a train on a wye is a separate idea from your dogbone layout reversing issues. Leaving my WESTERN MARYLAND branch line out of the conversation for now, my layout does not at any point contain a track arrangement like your dogbone layout. A train going west NEVER goes around a loop and becomes an EAST bound train on a track parallel to the track is was moving west bound on. Trains on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL portion of my layout are always EASTBOUND or WESTBOUND unless turned on the wye or rebuilt in the yard where there is a turntable to turn locos. Next issue - Your dogbone layout - YES, you are correct that your layout would be bothersome to wire for DC. No judgement here, and no disagreement about the advantage of DCC here, but personally I would not choose a dogbone track plan no matter the control system. It simply does not fit my desired operational scheme. Important point - when you view my new layout, or any of my recent old layouts, you are inside a large double track squiggly oval. Left is always WEST, right is always EAST. And until you go thru a crossover they are two separate isolated loops. There are no reverse loops on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL mainline. A west bound train does not disappear into staging and then return from that same tunnel as an east bound train. If allowed to proceed all the way thru the staging, it reappears at the other visable end of the mainline still as a west bound train. When a train moves thru a crossover from one mainline track to another on my layout there are no polarity issues, there are no special switches to set, no reverse loop toggles. Again, because there are no reverse loops.
The point is it did not take me any more actions, or any great complexity to turn the train on the wye compared to DCC.
Keep this in mind, turning a train on a wye is a separate idea from your dogbone layout reversing issues.
Leaving my WESTERN MARYLAND branch line out of the conversation for now, my layout does not at any point contain a track arrangement like your dogbone layout.
A train going west NEVER goes around a loop and becomes an EAST bound train on a track parallel to the track is was moving west bound on.
Trains on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL portion of my layout are always EASTBOUND or WESTBOUND unless turned on the wye or rebuilt in the yard where there is a turntable to turn locos.
Next issue - Your dogbone layout - YES, you are correct that your layout would be bothersome to wire for DC.
No judgement here, and no disagreement about the advantage of DCC here, but personally I would not choose a dogbone track plan no matter the control system. It simply does not fit my desired operational scheme.
Important point - when you view my new layout, or any of my recent old layouts, you are inside a large double track squiggly oval. Left is always WEST, right is always EAST. And until you go thru a crossover they are two separate isolated loops.
There are no reverse loops on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL mainline. A west bound train does not disappear into staging and then return from that same tunnel as an east bound train.
If allowed to proceed all the way thru the staging, it reappears at the other visable end of the mainline still as a west bound train.
When a train moves thru a crossover from one mainline track to another on my layout there are no polarity issues, there are no special switches to set, no reverse loop toggles. Again, because there are no reverse loops.
But on the subject of trains always going in one direction, it is inevitable except on point-to-point layouts. But, what I imagine as I operate my trains is that I am viewing a linear layout in which trains are always running East or always running West. The track just happens to connect over a long oval which the viewer does not perceive.
As for this thread, it is all about reverse loops and trains move West through the loop and return East. Reverse loops in DC require several gaps and switches to be thrown. On layouts like mine, operating in DCC, the auto-reverser(s) do it all automatically, not manually. That is my only point in expressing a strong preference for DCC over DC.
Rich
Alton Junction
There is an extrememly simple and hassle free solution to the reverse loop (and wye) situation but so many modelers just ignore it - all you have to do is model electric traction with the overhead wire as one side of the electricity delivery circuit and the rails paired as the other side, the reverse loop problem does not and can not happen!
Kevin,
All of the support posts finally made me realize that I needed to add insulated joiners to the main line block to insulate it from the remaining main line track. This means adding two more sets of insulated joiners.
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL My steps are: Push one button to set the wye to allow the west bound diverging route into the wye/staging. Make sure I am pulling into a staging track that is available, push one button if needed to select a track. Pull the train in until it clears the wye. Push one button to align the wye for west bound exit from the staging. Now, which way is my train going? It is still going west. So I don't change my throttle direction. Start the train, it will now back out of the staging and move west bound in reverse around the wye. After you are fully on the mainline, reset the the wye turnouts to the main, again done with one button. Which way is your train facing now? East. Change your throttle direction to east, and proceed. You have not pushed one more button, or flipped one more toggle switch (in fact no toggles were flipped), or aligned one more turnout, than you would have with DCC. Sheldon, my reply, which follows, is not meant to be argumentative but rather observational. The operation of that part of your layout seems complex. I count four buttons to be pushed in addition to throwing turnouts. I haven't stopped to figure what would be required to conduct that same operation in DCC. On my DCC layout, it is essentially a dogbone with reverse loops at both ends. But, visually, you would not see any "reverse loops" because the layout is large and the loops at both ends don't appear to be loops because the middle of the layout (which is the bulk of the layout) is a 4-track mainline controlled by four double slips, all wired in phase. What I actually have to deal with the loops are what I call four "reversing sections" of straight track that end with gaps leading into and out of the loops. Four auto-reversers controls the four reversing sections. So, I have to do nothing as the mainline trains enter and exit the loops. It is all handled automatically by the four PSX-ARs. Whenever I want to switch a train from one mainline track to another, I manually throw spring-loaded Peco turnouts and/or double slips. But those movements don't happen often because in that area of my layout it is mostly high speed mainline running of trains. That is the beauty of DCC. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL My steps are: Push one button to set the wye to allow the west bound diverging route into the wye/staging. Make sure I am pulling into a staging track that is available, push one button if needed to select a track. Pull the train in until it clears the wye. Push one button to align the wye for west bound exit from the staging. Now, which way is my train going? It is still going west. So I don't change my throttle direction. Start the train, it will now back out of the staging and move west bound in reverse around the wye. After you are fully on the mainline, reset the the wye turnouts to the main, again done with one button. Which way is your train facing now? East. Change your throttle direction to east, and proceed. You have not pushed one more button, or flipped one more toggle switch (in fact no toggles were flipped), or aligned one more turnout, than you would have with DCC.
My steps are:
Push one button to set the wye to allow the west bound diverging route into the wye/staging.
Make sure I am pulling into a staging track that is available, push one button if needed to select a track.
Pull the train in until it clears the wye.
Push one button to align the wye for west bound exit from the staging.
Now, which way is my train going? It is still going west. So I don't change my throttle direction. Start the train, it will now back out of the staging and move west bound in reverse around the wye.
After you are fully on the mainline, reset the the wye turnouts to the main, again done with one button. Which way is your train facing now? East.
Change your throttle direction to east, and proceed.
You have not pushed one more button, or flipped one more toggle switch (in fact no toggles were flipped), or aligned one more turnout, than you would have with DCC.
Sheldon, my reply, which follows, is not meant to be argumentative but rather observational.
The operation of that part of your layout seems complex. I count four buttons to be pushed in addition to throwing turnouts. I haven't stopped to figure what would be required to conduct that same operation in DCC.
On my DCC layout, it is essentially a dogbone with reverse loops at both ends. But, visually, you would not see any "reverse loops" because the layout is large and the loops at both ends don't appear to be loops because the middle of the layout (which is the bulk of the layout) is a 4-track mainline controlled by four double slips, all wired in phase.
What I actually have to deal with the loops are what I call four "reversing sections" of straight track that end with gaps leading into and out of the loops. Four auto-reversers controls the four reversing sections. So, I have to do nothing as the mainline trains enter and exit the loops. It is all handled automatically by the four PSX-ARs.
Whenever I want to switch a train from one mainline track to another, I manually throw spring-loaded Peco turnouts and/or double slips. But those movements don't happen often because in that area of my layout it is mostly high speed mainline running of trains.
That is the beauty of DCC.
Rich, first there are several different things being discussed just in my post and your reply. So let me explain and separate them.
Regarding turning a train on my wye, when I say "set" the wye, those buttons I am pushing ARE the turnout controls. This does assume my train has already been given authority to use this section of the mainline, but even that requires only two additional buttons to be pressed and then left alone.
So as my train proceeds west, I push one button that aligns the two turnouts that will divert me from the main and thru the branch of the wye into the staging yard.
You would have to manually throw two turnouts.
Because the wye leads into a staging yard, entering the yard requires a clear track. Only if not already selected, that would require pushing one button that will throw the necessary turnouts, however many it takes in the yard ladder automaticly, and it would direct the power only to the selected track, all automaticly with one button.
I have pushed two buttons, you would have manually thrown a minimum of three turnouts, possibly more.
The train clears the wye and stops.
I push one button, and now the turnouts necessary to let the train out of the other leg of the wye are all properly aligned. And the polarity of the staging yard "branch" of the wye is reversed automaticly.
You would have had to manually throw two turnouts and reversed your throttle direction.
I power up my train, without touching the direction buttons on the throttle, my train now backs up, because even through the train is now backing up, it is still proceeding WEST on the layout.
The train backs out of the wye onto the mainline, now facing the opposite direction from when I entered.
After I clear the wye, I push one button that realigns the wye turnouts to allow thru traffic on the mainline.
My train is now facing east. I push my EAST direction button on my throttle and proceed east back the way I came.
You would have had to align two manual turnouts and reverse your throttle direction again.
Again assuming I already had authority on that section of the main, I would have pushed a maximum of four buttons, possibly only three, and changed throttle direction once.
You would have thrown at least 6 manual turnouts, possibly more for the staging yard, and changed throttle direction twice.
The wye is the only way to turn a whole train on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL portion of the layout.
The single track WESTERN MARYLAND branch line is a different story, better explained with drawings I don't have handy. But, it is a single track branch line and its operation is different from the ACR mainline.
I hope this makes sense.
Below is the track plan for other readers who may be trying to follow this.
Kevin, now only concerned about the one reversing loop. I have insulater joiners at the ebeginning and end of the revers loop.
richhotrain Interesting and worthwhile thread. But, I have a one word reaction to DC reverse loops - - ugh! Thank goodness for DCC. Rich
Interesting and worthwhile thread.
But, I have a one word reaction to DC reverse loops - - ugh!
Thank goodness for DCC.
Well Rich, my new layout only has one, and it is not part of mainline operation, it is just a staging return on the WESTERN MARYLAND branch line. And it will be easy and logical to operate. And, you will not see it, it will be hidden.
I do have the wye, but that too will be semi automatic. If you are in the staging yard, and want to leave that leg of the wye and come back out on the main, all you is set the wye for the direction you want to go on the main, east or west, which only takes one button. Than you just set the direction on your wireless throttle to that same direction.
Your train will pull out of the staging and proceed on the main. Going in you just set the turnouts and pull in, nothing to do.
To leave, you just have to think "when I reach the mainline which way am I going?" That is the way your throttle direction needs to be set.
Relays and turnout position do the rest.
So let's say I'm headed west on the main with a train and I want to turn the whole train on the wye and go east.
You just have to think in terms of east and west, not forward and reverse.
The throttles have two buttons side by side with little arrows, pointing left (west) or right (east), easy enough.
As you move around the layout, left is always west, right is always east, the trains never turn themselves around in relationship to your view.
That is why you are "inside" the benchwork at all times.
Even If I used DCC I would build my layout that way, always viewing the trains as if I am facing "north". Layouts built for operation are much easier to understand and learn if you do this.
SeeYou190 Absolutely true... DCC makes reverse loops so much simpler. Maybe I should add a fourth question to my DCC or DC questions about reverse loops.
Absolutely true... DCC makes reverse loops so much simpler.
Maybe I should add a fourth question to my DCC or DC questions about reverse loops.
https://1drv.ms/u/s!ArA5bCiT7fJmowGsxnADySaSz-mR?e=QtYfNJ
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Mike.
My You Tube