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Need help NCE Power Cab AGAIN!!

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  • Member since
    August 2010
  • From: Columbia, IL
  • 394 posts
Need help NCE Power Cab AGAIN!!
Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:26 PM

Previous post determined that SB5 unit had a short.  So I removed the SB5 and reconnected my Power Cab unit as I had prior to getting the SB5.  That was yesterday and everything was running fine.  So I decided to go back to working on the turnout that I was working on before.  I completed what I needed to do (setting it up with a push/pull control rod and a switch to power the frog as needed for either position.  I have over twenty of these set up on my layout with no problems).  As of yesterday evening I had finished the turnout and powered back up to find everything running just fine.  So today I decided to clean the layout end to end.  Completed that and decided to run a train.  Turned on system.  Power cab came on, red light came on at the panel.  Loco came on (sound).  Started running loco, ran about 3 feet stalled at a turnout and then everything went dead.  Now when I turn on the power the Power Cab lights up for a couple seconds and then goes blank for awhile and then lights up again in cycles.  Meanwhile I do not get any red light at the panel.  Check all connections and they look good.  Man, I really hate this crap.  I have been running this layout for more than 8 years and now I am so frustrated.  Help.

  • Member since
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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, February 27, 2021 4:56 PM

 Does it power up with the track disconnected? If not - sounds like you've now fried the PowerCab's internal booster.

 Would be good to test the output of the PowerCab's wall wart power pack, see if it has sufficient voltage, maybe that's what's failed. You weren't using the power supply from the SB5 with the PowerCab, were you? 

 That the loco shorted when hitting the turnout, you've got something wired wrong there. It's not a reverse loop, is it? What type of turnout is it?

                                            --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:07 PM

I disconnected the track from the panel.  When I turned on the power, the cab lights up like it should and the red light on the panel comes on.  So does this mean there is a short in the track somewhere?

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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:12 PM

wdcrvr

I disconnected the track from the panel.  When I turned on the power, the cab lights up like it should and the red light on the panel comes on.  So does this mean there is a short in the track somewhere?

The good news is that it sounds like you did not fry the Power Cab. It sure does sound like a short at the turnout. It is probably in the wiring, but it also could be the turnout.

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:26 PM

So, should I disconnect the power from that turnout by cutting the rails at both ends?  Or is there a less drastic way to figure this out?

  • Member since
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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:33 PM

The turnout seems to be the culprit, whether it is the turnout itself or the wiring.

What brand and type turnout is it?

A track plan would help here, but absent that, do you have a reverse loop or other reversing section that the turnout leads into?

Rich

Alton Junction

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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:38 PM

Well. here is the latest. After disconnecting the track from the panel as you suggested I went back and with the power on and the Cab connected to the panel, I reconnected the track to the panel. Guess what? Everything is working again!! I used my multimeter to check the turnout that the loco was about to go thru when everything stopped and it appears to be wired just fine. **** Gremlins. What the heck (not what I really said) is going on here? I am happy it is working again but I really want o know what caused the problem.

  • Member since
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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:47 PM

I do have 2 AR1 reversing units in my layout but this turnout oes not lead into it directly.

  • Member since
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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:50 PM

It's an Atlas turnout like all the rest on my layout.  #6.  I am almost afraid to try running a loco at this point.  

 

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:58 PM

wdcrvr
Well. here is the latest. After disconnecting the track from the panel as you suggested I went back and with the power on and the Cab connected to the panel, I reconnected the track to the panel. Guess what? Everything is working again!! I used my multimeter to check the turnout that the loco was about to go thru when everything stopped and it appears to be wired just fine. Damn Gremlins. What the heck (not what I really said) is going on here? I am happy it is working again but I really want o know what caused the problem. 

That concerns me that it is an "on again, off again" situation. That should never happen. My feeling is that the problem has not been solved and it still persists. This whole issue needs to be further looked into.

Rich

 

Alton Junction

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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:59 PM

So, when will you be coming over?

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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 5:59 PM

wdcrvr

I do have 2 AR1 reversing units in my layout but this turnout oes not lead into it directly. 

This makes me wonder if you need to gap the track at some point. It could be that the reversing section is not fully isolated.

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:00 PM

Seems I am pretty good at carving wood, trains not so much!

  • Member since
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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:01 PM

wdcrvr

It's an Atlas turnout like all the rest on my layout.  #6.  I am almost afraid to try running a loco at this point.   

I would hold off running a loco until we find the shorting problem. My guess is that if you do run a loco into that turnout, the short will occur again.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:02 PM

wdcrvr

So, when will you be coming over? 

You are a 5 hour ride away. You need to find someone in the St. Louis area to pay you a visit.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:03 PM

wdcrvr

Seems I am pretty good at carving wood, trains not so much! 

Actually, it is all part of the learning process. Hang in there, we will solve it.

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:03 PM

Sorry, too late, just did that.  Ran right thru, no problem.  But that is not the same turnout that I had been working on before this crap all started and I had disconected the wires from it before I started this testing scenerio.  So I am going to reconnect that turnout and see what I get?

  • Member since
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:04 PM

Is it possible to post a track plan?

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:07 PM

I was JOKING.  But I must say again that I am so grateful for this forum.  If it were not for all the help I find here, I would not have been enjoying this hobby for the last 10 years or so.  I really do not know anyone near me to even talk to about this hobby.  

  • Member since
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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:14 PM

wdcrvr

Sorry, too late, just did that.  Ran right thru, no problem.  But that is not the same turnout that I had been working on before this crap all started and I had disconected the wires from it before I started this testing scenerio.  So I am going to reconnect that turnout and see what I get?

Good luck with that. Let us know.

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:14 PM

wdcrvr

I was JOKING.  

LOL, I presumed that.

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:39 PM

 So we have the following: Atlas turnout. Frog powered via a switch tied to the point control mechanism.

 Some things that can be said about this: Even if the switch is wired backwards, there would be no short until the loco hit the frog itself, since the frog is isolated from the closure rails.

 Atlas turnouts are DCC Friendly, the two point rails are isolated from one another, and tied to the adjacent stock rail, so even if the loco wheel touched the stock rail while on the point rail would not cause a short.

The problem turnout is not part of a reverse loop - so again no reason for a short to be present - and even it it was, the all routes powered nature of an Atlas turnout would make it ALWAYS shorted, not just when a loco crossed ontot he turnout.

 There have been a few reports of defective turnouts - typically in the plastic not filling in below the frog where the two rails cross one another. This is easy enough to test by pressing down ont he frog and seeing if you get a short. About the force exerted by the weight of a locomotive. 

 Final option - does the sound loco in question have a keep alive? It could be that the short was just a one time thing, and the PowerCab just cannot handle the inrush current.

                                            --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

  • Member since
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  • From: Columbia, IL
  • 394 posts
Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 6:52 PM

The loco does not have a keep alive.

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  • From: Dearborn Station
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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 7:03 PM

I would like to see a track plan. I still wonder if a reversing section is not fully gapped and isolated.

Rich

Alton Junction

  • Member since
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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 7:04 PM

I just reconnected all the wiring for the turnout that I had been working on before.  I checked it all out with the multimeter.  Everything good.  Frog is powered and the polarity of the frog switched properly for the direction of the turnout.  So, I ran a loco (same one of course) thru the turnout.  No problems back and forth, both directions.  Works like a charm.  This turnout is just outside of a reversing section but not in it.  I can't see how that could make a difference.

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Posted by richhotrain on Saturday, February 27, 2021 7:06 PM

wdcrvr

This turnout is just outside of a reversing section but not in it.  I can't see how that could make a difference. 

I am merely speculating, but it could make a difference if the reversing section is not fully isolated, that is, if a gap is missing or closed.

Rich

Alton Junction

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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 7:13 PM

I will check the gaps.  At this point I am tempted to reconnect my SB5 to see if it will now work.  I would hate to send it off for repair only to find out that it did not actually have a problem.

  • Member since
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  • From: Columbia, IL
  • 394 posts
Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 7:22 PM

Gaps look good.  I just ran the loco thru the turnout into the reversing section, thru the reversing section and back again.  No problems.  Time to recheck the SB5.  Fingers crossed.

  • Member since
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  • From: Columbia, IL
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Posted by wdcrvr on Saturday, February 27, 2021 7:46 PM

I just set the SB5 up again.  Not working.  So off to NCE it will go.  Guess I had a short that created a problem for the SB5.  Guess I need that EB1 breaker or some other sort of breaker between the SB5 and the track in the future.  Thanks for your patience and your help.

  • Member since
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  • From: Reading, PA
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Posted by rrinker on Saturday, February 27, 2021 8:32 PM

 Well, you sort of shot down that idea - you mention you have two reverse loops with AR1s. The AR1 will trip too slowly for the EB1 - so if you have an EB1 between the SB5 and the track, it will trip and cut power before the AR1 flips the reverse loop. You will need faster electronic auto reverse devices to be able to add electronic circuit breakers.

                                       --Randy

 


Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's

 

Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.

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