I'm not at the point of doing any wiring of my layout yet, but I'm curious about the idea of a kill switch that would shut down all power to a layout with one flip of a standard light switch. Useful? Redundant?
1) Is this sort of thing used by anyone?
2) Is it pointless to plan for something like this with the built in circuit protection in DCC systems?
3) Given #2, is it even possible to wire up a single switch that would kill all power districts at once? Related to this: would it be easier to have such a "master" switch when using DC or DCC?
Just curious.
Andy
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Milwaukee native modeling the Milwaukee Road in 1950's Milwaukee.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/196857529@N03/
My Digitrax power supply is plugged into a power strip, with an off/on switch.
The only ciruit breaker/s I have, is what's already built into the DB150.
Mike.
My You Tube
Hi there. Since I never really cared for night scenes, I connected my main power outlet in the train room to the same switch that controls my room overhead lights. I leave the room, turn off the switch and EVERYTHING gets shut off. I did not have this for my previous layout and I can't count the number of times where the power of my DCC system stayed on for days before I realized it. Problem solved!
Simon
mbinsewi My Digitrax power supply is plugged into a power strip, with an off/on switch. The only ciruit breaker/s I have, is what's already built into the DB150. Mike.
Ditto.....I use a Digitrax DCS51, it's plugged into a power strip with built in overload circut breaker. I use that to turn on/off the power to the track layout.
I wouldn't rely 100% on the circut breaker in the command station. They're for short circuts or problems on the layout and sometimes they fail. I had a short on the layout and although the command station circut breaker kicked in, by the time I figured out what was causing it, it fried and had to be sent back to Digitrax for repair. The culprit: I got several new coal hoppers with metal wheels and placed them on the layout. Turned on track power and circut breaker kicked in. Discovered that one of the metal wheels insulation had failed.
I would plan on a circut breaker between the power supply and the command station to pick up surges (such as lightning strikes), hopefully it'll shut down before the command station goes up in smoke.
Terry
Inspired by Addiction
See more on my YouTube Channel
I have 2 one for all power second one is for the main control panel which is 2 db 150s a ds100 and a few other things if I want to work on electric I can just kill all power and not get zapped
My layout originally had one power strip with a switch that controlled everything. As the layout grew with more illuminated structures and other things demanding power, I added more power strips, so there were more switches to throw at the end of the night, but all the DCC power is still on one centralized strip.
Too many wall warts.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley My layout originally had one power strip with a switch that controlled everything. As the layout grew with more illuminated structures and other things demanding power, I added more power strips, so there were more switches to throw at the end of the night, but all the DCC power is still on one centralized strip. Too many wall warts.
Yeah, I'm concerned about this as well. I have a new circuit just for the layout (15amp) but the other receptacles around the room are on another circuit that is not solely dedicated to trains.. This is another conversation of course, but I'm still at a point where I can have the other receptacles moved to a different circuit dedicated just to trains, and I probably will do that before I finish other items. That would give me 30amps for the layout, which should be more than enough (I tend to over-do things...)
I hadn't thought about wiring anything into the room lights. An interesting idea, although my basement still serves other purposes and I don't want the layout power being on just because the kids are playing down there.
I have 3 (because my layout space has more outlets than allowed on one switch by code). On the wall at the base of my stairs is a switch panel with 4 switches - one is the overhead room lights, the other three control the outlets around the area to be used for the layout. I have outlets twice as close together as normal - but they alternate between under the layout normal location outlets and ones set above where the top valence will be. That way I can set power supplies and equipment for the upper deck on top and have a nearby outlet, while the equipment for the lower level can mount under the layout and also have nearby outlets to connect to.
Each of my switches is the type with a pilot light as well, so it's obvious when the power is on. I never leave any of it turned on while not actually there working on the layout. The lights for the portion of the basement used to access the garage and the laundry area have their own switches, and there are unswitched outlets in those areas.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The Milwaukee Road WarriorI'm not at the point of doing any wiring of my layout yet, but I'm curious about the idea of a kill switch that would shut down all power to a layout with one flip of a standard light switch. Useful? Redundant?
I came from the industrial world, and residential wiring and components have always looked a bit shakey to me.
I have a Seimans 30 amp industrial safety switch, lockable, that will kill the whole layout.
It can be locked in the open position for safety and for stopping unauthorized layout operation.
The contacts are rated for full amperage open and close, and are well beyond what will ever be needed.
The housing will contain an arc flash, if that would ever happen.
This switch is capable of killing or energizing all the switches, outlets, and devices at once that can be on a 30 amp circuit. This is much different than a standard residential light switch.
From this switch, the wiring will go to an indoor load center with three breakers that will branch off to the layout, workbench, and lighting.
No matter what fail mode the layout room is in, this single switch is capable of cutting all power immediately under all circumstances.
There wil be seperate toggles to control lights, power packs, etc.
I have always had a master kill switch, and do not regret it at all.
My electrician said to never use a residential toggle for anything but a light. If the switch controls a motor, transformer, or loaded electronic device, it should be a more expensive commercial toggle switch with contacts rated for such. Compromise elsewhere.
I do a lot of things that might be overkill, but better to have it and not need it.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
I have a power strip for surge protection tucked up under layout, but I also have that outlet switched by a lit wall switch. That lit paddle style switch works as a reminder when the lights in basement are turned off. Switch is only lit when power is off to outlet.
There was a time back in my early home computer days that the local power company seemed like they were killing the power on almost a weekly basis, certainly 2-3 times a month at least. The 8-14-2003 blackout was caused by my supplier:
The blackout's proximate cause was a software bug in the alarm system at the control room of FirstEnergy, an Akron, Ohio–based company, which rendered operators unaware of the need to redistribute load after overloaded transmission lines drooped into foliage. What should have been a manageable local blackout cascaded into the collapse of the entire Northeast region.
I usually kept my computer powered on and even with the available "surge protectors" I always cringed everytime the power company would cut the power back in. Sometimes they would four or five times before finally keeping it on. Sometimes, too, there were "brownouts" when I would check the voltage and I'd get a reading of 85-95 VAC. Drove me nuts!
So I made myself a "reset box". Once power dropped out I had to physically reset it before power would be restored to the surge protector and PC. This was before any home-user UPS was ever available.
This reset box is just like a magnetic starter on a machine-tool motor. So with a "closed-loop" I can have a normally-closed switch and by pressing the "STOP" button the relay would drop out and not restart until any open in that circuit was made.
I use this same setup on my layout. Since my layout covers several areas of the basement and has a couple of peninsulas it isn't always easy to get to the kill switch. I can place palm switches or N-C push buttons all wired in series to the relay power.
This is my only "START" pushbutton. I actually used to have a key-switch here when the kids were younger! I had this system when the layout was originally built as DC and it is still useful with the DCC configuration.
E_stop-start by Edmund, on Flickr
Then, at strategic locations around the fascia and dispatchers panel I have other "Emergency Brake" buttons:
E_stop by Edmund, on Flickr
E_stop-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
E_stop-panel by Edmund, on Flickr
I don't always have my throttle handy when I'm wandering around the layout. It helps to know I can pull the emergency cord (and I have on more than one occasion!) and stop all operations. There is an e-stop button ON the throttle, too, again, not always accessible.
Thank you, Ed
Wow, a lot of good food for thought here. I like Randy's mention of switches with pilot lights, and I definitely like what Kevin and Ed are offering here.
I tend towards the better-safe-than-sorry (especially with electrical things) and I can see the benefit of a piece of serious hardware like the Siemans shut-off box. My layout won't be that large (~180 SF) so I doubt I would ever need all the shut-offs that Ed has (I can dream of having the whole basement for my layout can't I?)
I'm also sympathetic to the power issues Ed is mentioning here. When I was early in the planning stages and making initial electrical upgrades for the layout I had my electrician wire in a Square D whole-house surge protector device. Some people don't realize how much damage can be done *after* a power outage: when your power company juices the lines again. That initial surge can wreak havoc on your electronics. My dad learned this the hard way earlier this year. After the derecho storm ("land hurricane") blasted through the midwest in August and left us without power for days, his treadmill motor was fried by the resumption of mains power, adding insult to injury.
My layout is powered from a wall receptacle. First it goes into a high end surge protector that Randy recommended a few years ago. Them, using rome, it goes to a gang box for laptop power and 9v battery charger (hence always "on"). Then it goes to a switch on the facia with a pilot light that powers my workbench (task light, utility receptacle). Then it goes into another switch that powers all devises associated with the actual layout. I'm pleased with this layered sense of power management. I can sit at my desk/workbench and work without the layout fired up. And everything associated with the layout and layout room can be switched one switch (other than lights). Even the pilot light is backed up with task light on the desk so I can be assured I remembered to shut everything down.
I have my DCC system plugged into a surge protector. That is plugged into a an on/off switch at the edge of the layout. That power line goes into a Battery Backup & Surge Protector for Electronics and Computers. From this unit, it goes into the wall outlet.
https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/categories/power/uninterruptible-power-supply-ups-/computer-and-peripheral/back-ups/N-1nzwthz
I have a number of these in my house. Since there are ocassions when the power does go out, I don't have to worry about any surges into the DCC system that might blow the unit.
These are great, and, NO, I have no financial interest in the company.
Neal
I have four wall switches outside of the layout room which control everything in that room. They're each labelled with the first letter of what they control:
The first is for the Lower level...
...the second for the Upper level...
..the third for the Main level...
...and the fourth one for Power.
Each one controls some of the layout room lights, (24 double-tube fluorescents and 16 LED fixtures) but turning off the Power switch kills all layout room receptacles, including the one controlling the layout.
My grandkids were amused by the LUMP lettering on the faceplate of the switches, but if I need to go into that room to get something which is stored under the layout (non-model railroad stuff) I usually know where to look and need only flip the switch for that area.
Layout power, a ControlMaster 20, has its own ON/OFF switch, which I always turn off after running trains, so the Power switch outside the room also acts as a back-up for that.
Wayne
Plugged into a power strip with a surge protector. Turned off when not using. The command station does get warm if its left on continuously.
- Douglas
Adding to what Kevin said: in industrial applications there are TWO halves to this. Shutting everything down with a properly-rated master switch is only the first, easy half. On a large layout you might easily get to the point where you'd want to start it up again by connecting only some of the loads at a time, in the proper sequence, to keep inrush current from being an issue. Some of the loads will want to be 'soft-start'.
So the master "breaker switch" is really something that would control a programmed sequencer of some kind, perhaps something like a hardware version of a computer shutdown command as well as a BITE-enabled 'boot controller'.
A problem that has been discussed here in a different context is how you control safety breakers when the aggregate load on one is so great that damaging shorts to equipment can exist without tripping it. (Or conversely when small sensitive devices proliferate expensively and functionally independently.) We're now at a point where breakers can be controlled via DCC signals ... some of which can be just like shutdown commands to computers. What might need to be developed is a counterpart to this that brings up the breaker control architecture first, and does BITE on the DCC interconnections, and then actually connects main power sequentially and carefully on even very large, complex layouts involving considerable power.
Incidentally at one point I had a toggle switch running a motorized 4160V three-phase switch (not actually connected to 4160V power, of course!) in my basement: that probably represents more power-handling capacity than needed by any layout ever built. And when it wound up and went -- it opened and blew any arcs out in a fraction of a second...
Incidentally, I really, really don't want to be "that guy" but I would be remiss in not saying this among friends: an awful lot of the typical power-strip and wall-wart adapter connections would NOT pass code or fire inspection if anyone in 'authority' were to see them. Be as careful in planning how the AC supplies work as with the DC/DCC...
Surge protector into which a power bar is plugged, the latter hung near the fascia. All tools and train-related electronics are powered from the power bar. It has a rocker switch. On/OFF, it's that simple as I leave the train room, and then the wall light switch.
OvermodOn a large layout you might easily get to the point where you'd want to start it up again by connecting only some of the loads at a time, in the proper sequence, to keep inrush current from being an issue. Some of the loads will want to be 'soft-start'.
I've never had complaints from the utility company nor have they ever needed to place another generator on-line before I "power-up" the layout.
Layout_amps2 by Edmund, on Flickr
I would consider my layout "moderately-large" and my total current draw, with four trains running is 2.61 amps.
Layout_amps3 by Edmund, on Flickr
Mrs. Pullman's curling iron pulls a good ten amps. Enough to make the lights dim.
Cheers, Ed
Power strip with a light bulb pluged into (in addition to the built in glow on the switch). Gives off enough light so I knlw I left it on.
Will have to do more when I build a larger layout.
Good luck,
Richard
gmpullmanI've never had complaints from the utility company nor have they ever needed to place another generator on-line before I "power-up" the layout.
Such overcomplication. This is a model railroad, not an industrial plant. Even a full basement layout is not liekly to use a full 15 amp circuit. Remember a 10 amp DCC booster does not draw 10 amps from the wall - it's 2 amps or less, and that's ONLY if it's 100% loaded at 10 amps.
If you have central air in your house - there's a bigger inrush of that starting up than there ever would be with typical model railroad power supplies.
I have 3 circuits, plus one for the lights, because, why not - I had a subpanel installed in the basement instead of running all the wires over the garage ceiling to the main panel - one heavy wire instead. Plus I installed 2 additional circuits in my office room - one for the computers and one for my workbench, and since that was right above the basement, it was easier to run to the sub panel. Perhaps overkill, but if I need to add any additional circuits, I can easily do it above the drop ceiling of the basement instead of fighting with fishing cable through the garage ceiling. There were more than enough breaker spots open in the main panel, as there are now only 4 dual sets - AC outside unit, AC inside unit, sub panel to pool, and sub panel to basement. Gas stove only needs a 120 circuit, so that dual was removed, and I have a gas water heater as well.
None of those 3 circuits for the railroad area will be loaded heavuily. 25 to 30% maybe max - I'm probably using more running saws plugged in to those outlets than the actual layout systems will use. Modern power supplies for my layotu lighting and DCC stuff will be all switching supplies, which have PFC and inrush limiting (I'm not buying the cheapest power supplies I can find). If my toggles last 1 million operations instead of 10 million - I'll still be long gone before they fail. And it's not likely, I'm not switching high inductive loads. None of my new outlets or switches are the cheap consumer grade versions, I always use the higher grade stuff. Cheap insurance for better quality. But heacy duty disconnects with arc defelctors? Are you powering the traction motors of a real locomotive? The contactors in locomotive controls have arc chutes but they are making and breaking 600 volts at several hundred amps each.
rrinker Such overcomplication. This is a model railroad, not an industrial plant. Even a full basement layout is not liekly to use a full 15 amp circuit.
Such overcomplication. This is a model railroad, not an industrial plant. Even a full basement layout is not liekly to use a full 15 amp circuit.
There is a noticeable recent tendency by a few to treat model railroading as if it is an industrial plant. Half the time, I cannot even understand the replies of a few guys on this forum. I have a large layout, and it all operates on a single dedicated 15 amp houselhold circuit.
It just seems to me that more and more threads get corrupted by multi paragraph replies of absolute jibberish. Dumb it down. We are model railroaders, not nuclear engineers.
Rich
Alton Junction
rrinkerSuch overcomplication. This is a model railroad, not an industrial plant.
It sounds like your set up is similar to mine. I will have a 30 amp breaker in the main box that supplies the 30 amp safety switch. That will go to a load center that has breakers for the layout, workbench, and lighting. From those breakers it will go to individual toggle switches.
I doubt the layout will ever pull over 5 Amps, but I have all the outlets for tools built into the layout, and that needs a full 15 amp breaker. Having the lighting on a seperate 15 amp breaker just makes sense.
My workbench will be on a dedicated 20 amp breaker. There are 8 15 amp outlets built into the industrial workbench, and want to make sure all my electrical tools have the juice. I have other hobbies besides model railroading, and the workbench sometimes gets a workout. I want to make sure it is safe for whatever I may use it for.
The rest of the room outlets and lighting will be on the same normal 15 amp breaker that serves the room now.
The master safety switch is the simple way to turn off everything all at once, and it will work no matter what. I am happy with this level of safety.
The OPs question I was addressing was this:
The Milwaukee Road WarriorIs it even possible to wire up a single switch that would kill all power districts at once?
Yes, I can kill everything in the layout room, safely, and all at once. I did not mean to overcomplicate anything. I do come from the industrial world, and that is what I know.
gmpullmanMrs. Pullman's curling iron pulls a good ten amps. Enough to make the lights dim.
My four slice toaster and fancy coffee maker pull a total of 12 amps in the kitchen. If I plug in the griddle, the 15 amp breaker pops. This has been a bummer. I should have bought a less fancy coffee maker.
richhotrainThere is a noticeable recent tendency by a few to treat model railroading as if it is an industrial plant. Half the time, I cannot even understand the replies of a few guys on this forum. I have a large layout, and it all operates on a single dedicated 15 amp houselhold circuit. It just seems to me that more and more threads get corrupted by multi paragraph replies of absolute jibberish. Dumb it down. We are model railroaders, not nuclear engineers.
Agree!
I think the topic is interesting and relevant. Reading the thread, I see the interest in a power switch to address the following risks:
1) Power surges from the grid, either random or after a power shutdown.
2) An emergency situation when working on the layout, like some kind of short that may damage electronics.
3) Leaving a sub-component of the system "on" unintentionally after a session, which can happen if you have many plugs or systems to shut off.
These risks can lead to damage on the electrical and electronic components of a layout. So a master switch can address the above, as well as good power breakers to prevent surges. Pulling multiple plugs is no fun, and power bars with internal power breakers have their limitations. Risks are probably higher for those with a lot of electronics on their layouts, like DCC users. But I've always "pulled the plug" on things that have transformers. Many remain connected on the grid if you don't pull the plug.
I certainly learned a few things here - I really like the idea of an emergency button. It would be useful in "runaway trains" situations that I get from time to time.
All of my ac power connections go through a power strip, including the Arduinos and the electronics power supplies. I use DC but those 2 throttles are also connected to the strip. Rocker switch to turn it all on or off. For extended periods I even unplug the strip from the wall. It would be hard to leave it on as all of the structure and streetlights would still be on.
rrinkerBut heavy duty disconnects with arc deflectors? Are you powering the traction motors of a real locomotive? The contactors in locomotive controls have arc chutes but they are making and breaking 600 volts at several hundred amps each
That 4160V switch was salvaged from work being done on the campus administration building -- I saw it in a pile of removed material and asked if I could have it. Used a small motor and bicycle chain to wind up a very strong spring which then was tripped to move the contacts -- I don't recall how the air blast was provided. It was a fun prop to help keep nosy suitemates from meddling with the Tart 'n Tinys inside my single.
Later it became part of an elaborate kind of theatre intended to prevent crime. We had many commercials filmed at the house in Englewood, and extensively rebuilt supply to the house to facilitate that. Invariably we'd find one or two of the 'crew' upstairs seemingly wandering casually, or poking heads into the hall closet looking at the security system. I would always engage these in friendly conversation: "Oh, you know, that isn't the 'real' security system. Those are just decoy wires... and if anyone tampered with them it would be unfortunate ... here, let me show you the REAL arrangement" (at which point we'd go into the basement with minimal lighting). "When the ACTUAL security system is on" -- I had the 4160V switch wired to the primary of one of those paper-towel-core Tesla coils with like 10 turns on the primary and about a million on the secondary, and it would wind up with its whine and CRASH! followed by liberal dancing corona from some strategic apparatus -- "... it puts high voltage across those wires in case anyone thought they could cut them to disable the system..."
It was fun to see the eyes after this: often very large and dark. I would then purposely not report these people, thinking that like sterilized screwworm larvae they would pass word back to the 'criminal community' not to mess with That Particular House.
Most every other house on Lydecker got knocked over in the decade after 80/95 were finished, some as often as 3 times. Strangely ours never was...
Of course disconnecting a plug from a reciptical will make any failing component safe.
The issue, at least with my layout, and nearly all layouts I have visited, is that the connections from layout to wall have poor access, and many are used.
My transformers will be plugged into recipticals mounted in 4 inch metal boxes under the layout. I will have at least three train controllers and power supplies for lighting and two turntables. The master plug connection for the layout will be difficult to access under the layout. There will be can lighting and other lighting under shelves. Also, of course, all of the equipment on the workbench or tools for working on the layout. Not to mention the trains themselves. There are lots of locations for an electrical failure to take place.
In case of an electrical failure, your first indications are often noise or smell coming from the failed component. At this point you have a hazard that must be addressed immediately.
Having a single master safety switch, like the one I shared is the simplest way to do this. Just pull one lever, and the entire thing is deenergized. At this point I can safely crawl around and unplug everything from their recepticals. I can check locomotives and switch machines with zero chance of contacting an energized component.
Then I can reconnect the safety switch and begin troubleshooting the failure one component at a time.
It is just for safety, not for overcomplification of the system. As I stated before, it is better to have it and not need it.
OK,
EDIT: OMG! TOP, master switches for all!