Hello All,
I just got an email from the Hobby shop and it said:
"During the COVID-19 crisis and new rules just put in place, our repairs have been suspended at this time until further notice"
I guess now, I have to try and figure out how to fix this isue.
You have to test the wiring between tender and locomotive that supplies motor by yourself. You can do it as I suggested yesterday, using multimeter and cheking one wire, then another. Then you will know much more.
Hrvoje
If you look at the the photo, of the wires from top to bottom:
P - red/black
M - red/black
FL + green/black
FL - white/black
M + yellow/black
P + white/black
The wires seem to be in the right places, although I am not sure why there are two red/black wires in positions p - and M -
Sorry about the last post, the picture did not come through.
I joined Imgur.com to try and post the picture.
No luck, not a very user friendly website, again, I stink with computers and electronics!
Anyway, the wires look like they are in the right spots
Even if they are on the right spots this does not mean M+ in tender and M + in locomotive are electrically connected - it may be some problem in pin position inside connector, cold solder etc. The same applies for M - in tender and M - in locomotive.
What you need to do is connect tender and locomotive as they are intended to be connected when you want to run them on track. Then, you need to check if M+ / M + and M - / M - are electrically connected. To do so, you do not need to put locomotive&tender on tracks - just put them on your work bench / table.
Then use multimeter and check if M + / M + are connected - by trying to check if there is a short circuit when you put probes/pins of multimeter on those spots (M + / M + in tender / locomotive). If they are OK, multimeter should indicate short circuit. Then do the same for M- / M -. The result must be the same if wiring is ok - multimeter should indicate short circuit in both cases.
I hope you know how to use multimeter to check whether there is a short circuit - the most easy way is to use buzzer intended for that inside of multimeter, I think any newer device should offer it - just put the selection button on multimeter in appropriate position. When there is a short circuit, buzzing sound is heard.
I suggest look this short video, it may be helpful for you:
Hrvoje,
I really apprexciate your assistance.
I looked at the video and the multimeter looks nothing like the one I have.
1. I have an old Sears multimeter which I do not quite know how to use, it has
DC ma .05 50 250 etc.
DC V 10 50 250 etc.
2. On the multimeter, where do I set the knob DC V 10 50 250?
3. You State: "Then use multimeter and check if M + / M + are connected - by trying to check if there is a short circuit when you put probes/pins of multimeter on those spots (M + / M + in tender / locomotive). If they are OK, multimeter should indicate short circuit. "
On this multimeter that I have, other than the needle moving, how do I know if there is a short circuit
How does the multimeter show me that?
Please understand, as I have mentioned before, I know NOTHING about electronics, other than + and -.
The only thing that I can follow is a video or pictures, where the person points out things like for example:
Step 1. attach red wire from post A to post B
If there was a video on what you are decribing, then there would be no problem.
I have added decoders to old engines in the past, because I was fortunate to find DIY videos explaning how to do it.
It was easy beacuse it could follow it visually.
Sorry, but I am electronically challenged
Again, I do appreciate your help.
Put the knob in a position for measuring reistance (Ohms). Select if possible the smallest value. Then switch the multimeter on. Touch pins of two probes together - you will see, the needle is on zero or almost zero. This is because there is a short circuit caused because two pins are touching each other.
Now repeat the same procedure for M+ on tender and M+ on locomotive - if there is a short circuit, needle should be in a position zero or close to it, like when you touched two pins together. Then repeat for M- in tender and M- in locomotive. If again needle shows zero or close to zero, wiring is ok. If not, then wiring is not ok.
Probes must be connected to connectors marked with " + V Greek Omega letter A" and "- COM", if your multimeter is similar to this one: https://www.ebay.com/p/1124610765
Knob should be in green area, you can try from RX1 upwards. I am now also on limits of my knowledge, because I never used such older type - I have more modern device, so I may be wrong here.
I hope now it is more clear -:)
Click on the link.
https://www.policeauctionscanada.com/Listing/Details/15267374/Sears-48009-Analogue-Voltage-Meter-147569A
This is what my multimeter looks like.
The only OHM is X1K setting, just under the SEARS lable, the rest of the settings are DC ma AC v DC v
Ok, then select X1K and try. Switch on the multimeter, select this position, and observe position of a needle when pins are not touching each other. Then touch pins together, and see what happens.
Basically, the same should happen when you touch M+ and M+ on loco/tender with two pins - if there is a short of course, which would indicate that M+ and M+ are electrically connected - meaning this wire is ok. Then repeat with M- and M-.
The good thing here is that no matter what you do, you cannot harm to any part of locomotive.
Do not forget - loco and tender MUST be connected to perform this test.
Hallelujah!
I put the setting to OHM xik, I touched the two probes together and the needle went to 0.
Next, I put one probe on Loco + and one on Tender + and the needle went to 0.
Lastly, I put one probe on Loco - and one on Tender - and the needle went to 0
So, it appeares that the eveything is good.
Again, thanks for your help!
Now that we know the wiring is good, what is the next step?
Well, if resistance is zero for both wires, that should indicate wiring is ok. Considering the fact that motor is also ok, I am again suspicious on the decoder. When you tested it (using pads M+ and M- on tender while DCC applied on tender wheels), do you remember how much volts it showed? It should be depending on throttle position between 2 and 12, maybe 14 V, not more.
Do you have any spare motor or DC locomotive and two wires approximately 5-6 inches long (or 10, even better)? If yes, you can use either motor or DC locomotive to test the decoder. But here you must be very careful because you could burn the decoder.
You said:"When you tested it (using pads M+ and M- on tender while DCC applied on tender wheels), do you remember how much volts it showed? It should be depending on throttle position between 2 and 12, maybe 14 V, not more."
If I remember correctly, The loco was connected to the tender with the 6 pin harness on the track.
I put the position on the multimeter to DC v 50 and on the tender I put one probe on M+ and the other on M -
I turned on the NEC power on and the needle moved
If that is correct, I will try it again or do I use another DC v setting other than 50?
For this test you do not need to connect loco and tender, in fact it is easier to manipulate with tender if loco is not connected. What you want to know here is how much volts you get on M+ and M - on tender PCB, when tender is connected to DCC (either on track or some clips from DCC station conected to tender wheels that have power pickup).
So, you should put tender under power (DCC), move throttle around 50%, and measure how much volts you get on pads M+ and M- in tender.
First move knob on multimeter on DC 50. Then put tender on tracks or put wires from DCC station on tender wheels (if you have aligator clips, this can be helpful). Then move throttle at around 50%. Before that you can check if you have sound - if not, maybe tender is not under power. After that, and throttle moved as explained, VERY CAREFULLY touch pads M+ and M- on tender PCB (see picture here). Observe needle position - it should indicate value between 5 - 10 volts.
Can you do it? But be very careful - do not touch with multimeter pins anything else, and above all - do not cause short circuit anywhere on tender PCB.
OK,
Everything works fine!
The needle moved
Ok, but how much? How much volt you read?
I am now puzzled, because we checked:
1. motor
2. wiring
3. decoder, motor part
And everything is ok. That cannot be, because something out of these three is not ok, because locomotive does not move.
When you move the throttle, does the needle moves too? If throttle is on maximum position, how much volts you read?
"When you move the throttle, does the needle moves too? If throttle is on maximum position, how much volts you read?"
With the multimeter at DC v 50 and two probes on M - and M+ on slow speed it shows 10 volts
on medium speed 10 volts and on max speed 10 volts
That means that decoder is really ok. But then something must be wrong between locomotive and tender - so something in the wiring is not ok, because motor is working. Over Internet I cannot know what.
I am currently out of any idea.
Wait, one question - when you checked wiring for short circuit, which M+ and M- did you use on the locomotive side? Look on picture here. There are two sets of M+/M-. You should use the pads on the PCB in the middle, where blue and yellow wires are conected. Did you use these pads, or those on the far right?
Ok
Acctually, I used both and they all work!
I did it for the second time and they still all work.
What I find odd is that with both loco an tender connected on the track, all sounds work great.
When I increase throtle speed, there is a humming sound in loco and then when I turn throtle to 0, sound still works and humming stops in loco.
Humming could mean that motor is under power and trying to rotate, but cannot because something is preventing it. But as you checked with DC power directly on motor, and motor and wheels rotated (they did, didn't they?), than there is not mechanical error that prevents motor from rotating.
I am going to try something else.
1. I will disconnect tender from loco and put the tender aside.
2. I will place loco on tracks and hook aligator clips on the track to DC power pack
3. I will take two wires one on the yellow point and one on the blue point and attach them both to the track.
Will that work?
If you agree, say yes, if not say no and give me another method
Yes but make sure you disconnect your DCC system from the track first Do not apply DC power to the rails if the DCC system is hooked up, you will damage the DCC system.
If the motor and mechanicals are good, the loco should move, up to the limit of the length of wires you connected.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Yes, that is a good idea! If you do this we will know for sure that locomotive is mechanically ok, and motor too. Do it.
When we finish this, you will be an expert
If locomotive moves, then you could do another test: connect directly M+ and M- pad on tender PCB with yellow and blue wires from motor in locomotive with two spare wires. Of course, that means that wires from M+/M- pads on tender PCB should be unsoldered and isolated first (some tape), and also wires from motor must be unsoldered from locomotive PCB. When soldering spare wires from tender with motor wires, these conections also have to be isolated.
Doing this you would completely bypass wiring, and connect decoder motor part with motor. If locomotive moves, that means something is not good with wiring, despite your check with multimeter before.
Or, you can partially bypass PCB on the far left in locomotive, by unsoldering wires marked with arrows (see picture below) and connecting them directly - but isolate all soldered connections.
Ok,
The motor works on slow-medium speed and medium to fast speed,
but does not start to move in very slow speed.
Also it sounds more like a lawn mower than an engine!
This is not good, it should not sound like you described, but this is aligned with my assumption that humming is coming from motor that is prevented from rotation from any reason.
But, did the wheels rotate?
So, the motor runs but the wheels don't turn, the loco just jerks on the track
Ok, you have a mechanical problem, it can be damaged worm, worm gear, or even gear on driving wheel, or damaged linkage - but I think that is not the case, considering the noise.
You have to dissasemble (remove) worm, to check if wheels and linkage are intact and rotate freely.
Look on picture below.
You should get to worm (123). To be able to remove it, part (121) must be removed first. To be able to do so you need to remove PCB on the right, and to do that, wires should be unsoldered. Before doing that make several pictures to be able to solder them back.
When you remove worm, you will know more what is the problem. I assume worm is made from brass, so it should be ok. But gears 122, 125 or 128 can be damaged, or gear on the wheelset.
This task is not easy, but it can be done. I hope just one gear is damaged - I hope Athearn can provide replacement.
This also means that decoder and wiring is ok. Do not put them on DCC until motor and wheels rotate freely without noise on DC, otherwise you can damage the decoder.
And be patient and careful, use small screwdriver to release part 121 from its seat.
Considering the fact that our planet still rotates, I will go to bed soon. I hope some other colleague from your part of the world will take over from here
Do not be sad - at least we know now where is the problem, and either by yourself, or with someone's help, this will be repaired. Cracked gear is not uncommon problem, so this has happened before. You have a beautiful locomotive that is part of US railroading history, and it deserves to be repaired and running!
Ok Hrvoje!
It probably sounds like the worm gear is the culprit.
I will look at it tomorrow and attempt.
Thanks again, for all your help.
Sleep well!