Randy, I trust you are aware that cork with the right prep is nearly the gold standard for both glass polishing and getting a mirror finish in knifemaking. I am beginning to think that a modified well, well, well-broken-in cork belt charged with green compound might be a secret weapon in gleaming --
With all this track gleam. I have a couple of Masonite box cars I bought from eBay
You'ld love the Railroad across the Wisconsin border from Minnesota that made the Burlington Northern Green Machine gleam
The Osceola Railroad which is a very small railroad
Now back to our regularly scheduled program here
TF
In the construction business, we use these heavy duty, nearly lint free paper towels that are known by names like "rags in a box". People ask us why we buy them rather than use actual scrap cloth rags, or much cheaper bargain paper towels.
Why? Because they work better and save time, and give superior results.
We use them for everything one might need a rag for in construction, gluing PVC pipe, paint work, job cleanup issues (with Windex), wiping flux off copper pipe solder joints, working with caulk (or adhesive caulk like I put down track with), and much more.
I found they work really good for simply wiping off track on those rare occasions when it is necessary. Either dry, or with just the smallest application of "Goo Gone", the black stuff is all gone.
A little Goo Gone on one of these paper towels, layed over the track, and a loco held in place to spin its wheels - presto! Clean wheels that seem to then stay clean for a long time.
And these small amounts of Goo Gone have never seemed to cause any loss of traction. Of course a dry "rag in the box" seems to easily remove the small amount of Goo Gone to an indectable level.
Warning, do not try this with an "ordinary" paper towel, you will end up with shredded paper towel in your loco and all over the place......
Sheldon
Which also proposes an alternative to the masonite car, since the stuff you get these days doesn't seem to be at all like the actual Masonite produced material of 40-50 years ago. A flat piece of just about anything, with a piece of cork stuck on the bottom (not with a permanent adhesive, so you can peel off the worn piece of cork and swap in another). Som medium thick styrene, or even a square of modern hardboard, with the extra step of adding the replaceable cork pad. A few such cars and a decent operating scheme will mean pretty much the entire layout will get run over at least once in an operating session by one of the cork cars. Never clean track by hand again.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Overmod richhotrain Speaking of Bright Boy, I couldn't find my today, so I grabbed a piece of cork sheet and, voila, the black gunk disappeared like magic. Which, hint, hint, hint, shows that abrasive that cuts micro-ruts in the railhead isn't necessary to get it clean.
richhotrain Speaking of Bright Boy, I couldn't find my today, so I grabbed a piece of cork sheet and, voila, the black gunk disappeared like magic.
Which, hint, hint, hint, shows that abrasive that cuts micro-ruts in the railhead isn't necessary to get it clean.
Overmod Did you look closely at the rail after the black disappeared like magic, to see if ALL of it did? It would be the itty-bitty black points that would be the problem...
Did you look closely at the rail after the black disappeared like magic, to see if ALL of it did? It would be the itty-bitty black points that would be the problem...
Did I look closely at the rail after rubbing the cork sheet scrap over the rail? Yep, I put on the Optivisor and the rubbed area looked super clean and the performance of locos going over that area at slow speeds was much improved. That was good enough for me.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainSpeaking of Bright Boy, I couldn't find my today, so I grabbed a piece of cork sheet and, voila, the black gunk disappeared like magic.
AKA the lesson taught by John Allen's back-side-of-the-masonite weighted pads.
Gleaming only 'readies' the track to produce less black stuff. And it does that, I think, quite well. But the black oxide from microarcing should just wipe off nickel silver; only the micro-pits remain to hold whatever 'wicks' or gets rolled into them, and then pose little dielectric interruptions for more micro-arcing on powered wheels, and a source of transfer-printable gunk for all wheels.
richhotrain rrinker The whole gleaming thing seems like too much work. It sure does. I just clean off black gunk when it appears with a Bright Boy. That's about the full extent of my track cleaning.
rrinker The whole gleaming thing seems like too much work.
The whole gleaming thing seems like too much work.
It sure does. I just clean off black gunk when it appears with a Bright Boy. That's about the full extent of my track cleaning.
Once I did the burnishing, I didn't even have to do that much. Unless I painted some track and needed to clean the paint off the tops of the rails.
I've had a couple of piece of flex track (Peco this time) set up on my workbench, with a Peco #6 electrofrog, and DCC clip leaded to the free end of flex that connects to the point side of the turnout (can't feed an Electrofrog from the frog side) and the other day I fired it up for the first time in a long time. There was a little bit of stuttering and flickering of headlights, but after I ran a loco back and forth on both routes, it cleaned right up. This is just sitting there on my workbench which is in my office room, for whatever reason things tend to gather dust quickly in my house, even though there are no carpets. Probably pet dander, and definitely get plenty of hair, 2 Pugs release a lot of magic Pug glitter. But if that's the extend of "cleaning" I have to do up here - just run a train back and forth a few times - then I expect no issues in the basement. Floor is sealed down there, walls are all drywall and painted, drop ceiling is installed, and even where it had to be left open for pipes and the furnace and water heater exhausts, the opening intot he drop ceiling area was closed up. The dogs don't go down there, so if anything it's probably less dusty in the basement. Only dust down there is the sawdust I am making while building benchwork.
The whole gleaming thing seems like too much work. All I ever did was thr burnishing step with a hardened washer (actually, I used the flat side of my hardened wire cutters used to cut piano wire). No polish stop. Just rubbed along the rails, both at the same time, gnetly around switch point so as not to bend or break them, and I nevber had any issues with running trains. No need for keep alives, either.
I like that quarter Kevin.
I use laquer thinner in a rail cleaning car that works the same way as the expensive car works.
On the pad, I use the same material that is on the CMX car. Works fine.
I might do this once, or at the very most twice a year.
The never ending topic of track cleaning.
Mike.
My You Tube
I have never seriously gleemed a whole layout, never had any issues.
Yes the gunk is nickle oxide, plastic wheels don't cause it, but they attract it. Metal wheels not so much.
My understanding of the science supports the idea of gleeming, but I know lots of guys with big layouts who have never done it, their trains run fine, they clean track seldom to never, have few to zero dirty track issues.
I will be interested to see what happens on my new layout? I run DC, at a max voltage of about 14 volts, PWM speed control. More arcing or less arcing than the hybrid AC signal of DCC?
So glad I'm not soldering feeders every 3-6 feet on the up coming 1400 feet of track........
Each control block gets a feeder, each block has all soldered rail joints, throttle buss from wireless throttle recievers is #12 wire, drops from track to local relay stations are #18. Control blocks sometimes 60 feet long.
No voltage drop issues........ Is the arcing different?
Overmod In my opinion, dirty locomotive wheels on gleamed track will still induce micro-arcing
In my opinion, dirty locomotive wheels on gleamed track will still induce micro-arcing
selector CMStPnP So DCE recommends DCC feeder wires approx every three feet so I am going with that recommendation ... Far too much unnecessary work. If you want to ensure every three feet of rails has positive power, simply solder every other joiner and have a feeder inserted into those soldered joiners.
CMStPnP So DCE recommends DCC feeder wires approx every three feet so I am going with that recommendation ...
So DCE recommends DCC feeder wires approx every three feet so I am going with that recommendation ...
Far too much unnecessary work. If you want to ensure every three feet of rails has positive power, simply solder every other joiner and have a feeder inserted into those soldered joiners.
Overmod; use a radius section of the layout to clean wheels,
to clarify, let the trains run by on a given radius section that you can wipe down after each train pass, eventually most of the dirt is scruffed off on that radius by the trains and then you merely wipe the crud each pass, you'll notice less dirt on the wipe each time....
Semafores
kasskabooseThis is interesting. Does it really mean one and done?
Personally I've always been in the 'prototype railhead appearance' camp, and have come to subscribe to the microarcing theory of progressive track damage, both of which are addressed nicely by the more refined 'gleaming' process.
If you like the idea of TOR either with the light nonoxidizing oil film or the dielectric grease, I still think that 'optimizing the railheads' is a good first step before 'coating'. And in such case the 'once and done' aspect of the gleaming process would be even better established...
How much is the cost for the products?
A pack of the stainless washers (so you can pick a 'good one' or tinker with shaping and polishing the burnishing surface) will be expensive as washers go ... but not that much in 'absolute' terms and, for all intents and purposes, 'once and done' for even large and growing layouts.
incidentally I have not seen the Bright Boy (or other polishing-pad) proponents in this thread yet. My interpretation of the 'revealed wisdom' in threads on the topic indicates that Bright Boying leaves the track in a state analogous to an intermediate state of 'gleaming' grinding, but causes its own forms of track damage, notably gouging, that likely cause their own electrical or contact issues ... and may actually require more physical material removal at the finer grits than if pads had not been used at that step. As noted we need someone to document this with a good high-resolution microcamera or metallurgical scope and good lighting technique to show the actual finish, pitting, etc involved in each step of various approaches to the 'gleaming' -- I apologize in advance for dogging it all these years and continuing not to do it as talk is cheap.
I think the next 'timeless topic' in the cost of track treatment is going to involve cheap or easy ways to clean large numbers of wheeltreads effectively, for those cases where TOR treatment preserves the track but gunks the wheels. Surely there are reasonably cost-effective analogues to those automated vinyl record cleaners!
Sandpaper, while more labor intensive, is far cheaper than the cleaning car. Should we use sandpaper on the DCC layout? If so, are the grits mentioned in the video correct?
This is interesting.
Best way is to just run trains frequently. Use all metal wheels. Seams when trains don't run often Dirt at oxidize build up. I always found wiping with a paper towel. (Kitchen roll). Then run a heavy train with athearn bluebox sd40-2's always polished the rail well. Never did anything more than and never needed too
shane
A pessimist sees a dark tunnel
An optimist sees the light at the end of the tunnel
A realist sees a frieght train
An engineer sees three idiots standing on the tracks stairing blankly in space
Yeah but you do it once, and never again. I just did it as I went along painting the track - have to clean the paint that gets ont he top anyway.
I run the cmx around the layout twice a year and never get a hiccup. All this rubbing and scrubbing sure sounds like a lot of work.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
SeeYou190 Kevin
Kevin
Yes... it was quite a workout! Rationalized, no doubt, by the thought that it was a "once & done" process. But I was really... really happy to come across the finer grits!
SeeYou190 hardcoalcase Now my gleaming arsenel includes 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, and 12,000 grit papers. -Kevin
hardcoalcase Now my gleaming arsenel includes 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, and 12,000 grit papers.
-Kevin
That does certainly takes the hard work out of gleaming, but I would recommend that you try the finer grits too. As noted in my post, the final step with the 12000 grit creats such a mirror finish, that I questioned whether burnishing was needed at all. But I do burnish anyway, on the premise that no matter how fine the grit, there is still going to be some micro-scratching, so the burnishing is still beneficial.
SeeYou190 Sanding the rails with 4,000 grit paper makes the paper look chrome plated. -Kevin
Sanding the rails with 4,000 grit paper makes the paper look chrome plated.
hardcoalcaseNow my gleaming arsenel includes 1000, 2000, 4000, 6000, and 12,000 grit papers.
My last sandpaper before the coin is 4,000 grit.
I cannot imagine trying to gleam from 600 grit.
Living the dream.
carl425 Weren't we promised 30 years ago that DCC (or any Command Control) would relieve us from track cleaning duty forever? The argument was the constant high voltage on the track would not be affected by dirt on the track like DC was when running slow at low voltage.
Weren't we promised 30 years ago that DCC (or any Command Control) would relieve us from track cleaning duty forever? The argument was the constant high voltage on the track would not be affected by dirt on the track like DC was when running slow at low voltage.
I can't say that 'they' did or did not, but if they did, it was a mistake. 'They' must not have been aware of the difference between the two modes of operation where the electronics needed an unfettered and steady supply of voltage, and that the older DC mode was more forgiving of minor dropout. And, if it's worth saying, and I think it is, the DC way of running trains was far better insofar as maintaining steady movement of the trains. However, having taken pains to ensure my DCC running doesn't suffer unduly, I would not go back. I like having two locomotives couple when only one of them is in motion, or when the two are moving toward each other. That won't happen in DC, not without sophisticated equipment, and I don't want to learn how to do that and to install what it takes.
And not ALL DCC sound decoders run through the startup sequence if they lose power and then get it back. Some remember the last state and come back the wya it was (which could be they are running the prime mover like what would be half speed, but they don't jackrabbit back into motion like a DC loco would, the motor gradually speeds up, but at least you didn't have the startup sequence playing while the loco was already moving).
OvermodI'd be interested in a report
One big difference from DC and it is irritating in DCC is that when there is a short the sound card in the locomotives re-initialize and you get the whole locomotive starting up sequence again via the sound card once the electrical pickup resumes. I can see why folks are fanatical about soldering joints and feeder wires every so many feet......it's trying to avoid the sound cards from starting over again. Now in DCC you can turn the sound off as an option to get around that.
As for surface of the washer both sides were smooth so it didn't matter.
I'd be interested in a report (with appropriate microphotography) about any difference in micropitting (due to spark erosion, etc.) with DCC power vs. straight and PWM DC. In my opinion, dirty locomotive wheels on gleamed track will still induce micro-arcing, and the resulting plasma will damage any adjacent surface whether it is specular-reflective or not -- this could be relatively easily tested out and demonstrated (or disproved).
Once you have gleamed, you should periodically check to see if any further pitting or wear has occurred, and periodically repeat whatever finishing steps are required. (I am tempted to say 'do this with a good loupe' or one of those microphotography USB cameras sold for 'enlarging things 200x' for curious STEM kids, but it isn't necessarily obsessive...)
Note that 'polishing' in these discussions is likely just like wet-sanding with very fine grit: somewhere in one of the historical posts here is a table explicitly providing the 'grit' equivalent of different materials and polishes. That could be continued right up through contact methods of superfinishing including ammonium bifluoride and the like.
Most polishing is also a removal process ("subtractive machining") and does not really substitute for burnishing, which is mechanical reworking (which includes work-hardening when applicable) of the surface. Here I think it is advisable to remember that the results of burnishing are not 'magic'; they depend substantially on the surface finish as well as relative hardness of your burnisher, and the religious elimination of the least trace of previous grit or other 'hard contaminants' that might get between the burnisher and the work. What this really implies is that if you are going to do the 'washer trick' look carefully at the washers and select a good one, burnish using the 'rounded' side and not the punched side, and carefully polish and clean the active faces of the washer to the same surface quality you want.
Thanks for the feedback everyone this does boost my confidence a little more with this new method (gleaming). I was able to buy a package of 2 - 2 inch stainless steel washers at Home Depot that seem to work fine last night. So I am all set to go next weekend once I finish with the bus and feeder wires. I am doing the whole DCE recommendation on the bus and feeder wires including the switch machine options (toggle switch on facia or cab control of switch using the switch 8 circuit), circuit breakers, and I have installed the auto reverse circuits and they seem to be working well (very seamless) on my two lower reverse loops.
I did encounter another problem but it is minor. My Atlas loco does the jerky operation, Athearn runs smooth with no issues. So my presumption there is dirty or tarnished wheels, will check that out later. Have not tested my KATO or Scale Models yet. I figure as long as one model manufacturer works OK, I should be able to adjust the others to work OK. Way back in the DC era I used to prefer Atlas locos because of their brass wheel whipers that kept the wheels clean and their smooth can motors so the troubles now with Atlas in DCC are a surprise but I'll figure out whatever the issue is.
Gleamed my track as I installed it in 2006, did a touchup burnish in 2016, run a masonite pad on most freight consists, good to go. Do find that little used sidings, like once a year or two, do require wiping on occasion as stuff does accumulate.