gregc richhotrain but the programming steps can be fewer and simpler. i'd like to see what assumptions you're making that would make them simpler richhotrain What I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button. i don't see a benefit to that unless you're saying each turnout that needs to be "changed" requires time and by reseting you minimize the time to set a route.
richhotrain but the programming steps can be fewer and simpler.
i'd like to see what assumptions you're making that would make them simpler
richhotrain What I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button.
i don't see a benefit to that unless you're saying each turnout that needs to be "changed" requires time and by reseting you minimize the time to set a route.
The reason that I add a reset button on the control panel is that by setting all the routes back to Normal (green LED) as opposed to some remaining Reverse (red LED), I can visually see at a glance that every turnout has reverted to Normal. That's my only reason for a reset button. It is not necessary though.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hey, guys, I am not trying to argue that my suggestion is better than anyone else's suggestion. For me, the Mini Panel / Switch-8 is a simple and somewhat elegant solution to automated track routing.
Is my suggestion inexpensive? Not necessarily. Is my suggestion easier to comprehend and install? It depends.
An electronics engineer will have no problem with the schematics being presented. A modeler who is not familiar with the level of electronics knowledge required to build a circuit board for auto track routing will welcome the Mini Panel / Switch-9 approach. A knowledgeable non-engineering modeler may not want to spend the time required to build his own circuit board.
Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes. Dave will decide for himself which way he chooses to proceed.
rrinker ATLANTIC CENTRAL I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911. Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it. But if not I can do this for about $10. And I thought DCC was too expensive to put decoders in my 140 locos, it is really too expensive to control 60 or 70 turnout routes. Sheldon Don't forget NCE's MAP rules. The going price for a Switch-8 is about $52, not $70. The Mini Panel is about $47, not $60. That's for 30 inputs. A fraction the price of CMRI, unless you DIY. I/O boards for Loconet are even cheaper per bit. And there are far less per turnout options than the Switch-8, which has features which are not necessary in this application. You really can't compare something you put together yourself with commercial products. I'm doing most ogf my control systems myself as well, and it's not costing me near what buying Switch-8's or the equivalent would run me. Not that I would use them - given that servos are a fraction of the price of a Tortoise, I'm saving more than the electronics cost just by using servos, and an 8 unit servo driver board is $38 if you need more than 5 of them, buying commercially. DIY, even less. We get it, you love relays. But you can't get them for the prices you paid years ago. If you have a stash of a useable component, by all means, use it instead of paying for something new. But starting from scratch? There's no way wiring all that relay logic is less difficult than plugging in a couple of 6 pin telco cables and coming up with a simple script that says when button 1 is pressed, set turnout 2 to thrown, turnout 3 to closed, and turnout 4 to closed. The 'programing' for the button board is NOT done by trying to figure out that you need to set CV432 to 74 to make turnout 3 closed when button 1 is pressed, it's in plain text. --Randy
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911. Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it. But if not I can do this for about $10. And I thought DCC was too expensive to put decoders in my 140 locos, it is really too expensive to control 60 or 70 turnout routes. Sheldon
I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911.
Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it.
But if not I can do this for about $10.
And I thought DCC was too expensive to put decoders in my 140 locos, it is really too expensive to control 60 or 70 turnout routes.
Sheldon
Don't forget NCE's MAP rules. The going price for a Switch-8 is about $52, not $70. The Mini Panel is about $47, not $60. That's for 30 inputs. A fraction the price of CMRI, unless you DIY.
I/O boards for Loconet are even cheaper per bit. And there are far less per turnout options than the Switch-8, which has features which are not necessary in this application.
You really can't compare something you put together yourself with commercial products. I'm doing most ogf my control systems myself as well, and it's not costing me near what buying Switch-8's or the equivalent would run me. Not that I would use them - given that servos are a fraction of the price of a Tortoise, I'm saving more than the electronics cost just by using servos, and an 8 unit servo driver board is $38 if you need more than 5 of them, buying commercially. DIY, even less.
We get it, you love relays. But you can't get them for the prices you paid years ago. If you have a stash of a useable component, by all means, use it instead of paying for something new. But starting from scratch? There's no way wiring all that relay logic is less difficult than plugging in a couple of 6 pin telco cables and coming up with a simple script that says when button 1 is pressed, set turnout 2 to thrown, turnout 3 to closed, and turnout 4 to closed. The 'programing' for the button board is NOT done by trying to figure out that you need to set CV432 to 74 to make turnout 3 closed when button 1 is pressed, it's in plain text.
--Randy
I only have one comment, "all that relay logic"? Most all the turnout control logic situations that have been discussed in several threads recently are handled by the same two schematics I keep posting, or require only minor additions or changes to those schematics.
Three possible routes is three possible routes, it's the same schematic, be it a double crossover, two crossovers, or a wye, etc.
A single turnout or a stand alone crossover is the same diagram, etc
Don't make it harder than it really is.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL But if not I can do this for about $10. Sheldon, this may be true for modelers with technical backgrounds who are willing to spend their time building electronics. but for the majority of modelers, buying commercial hardware is the least expensive option for getting something that works.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But if not I can do this for about $10.
Sheldon,
this may be true for modelers with technical backgrounds who are willing to spend their time building electronics.
but for the majority of modelers, buying commercial hardware is the least expensive option for getting something that works.
"building electronics" ? We are not talking about some PC board project with integrated circuits and soldering here.
We are talking about eight or ten relays with screw terminals and 18" of wire cut into little jumpers, and simply learning the difference between the normal open and normally closed side of a form C contact set.
And then following a simple wiring diagram.
That's why I don't use PC board relays, just setting them up to make connections is more work than my whole system.
Ice cube relays with screw terminal bases.......which can easily be changed (read reprogramed) or reused later.
Good quality industrial ice cubes in 12 or 24 volts can be had surplus for $1 each or maybe $3 new, often with the bases.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut if not I can do this for about $10.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
If you assume the "Reset" button is always pressed, you have some known states, so you don't need a line in the programming to set a turnout to normal if it can be assumed to already be at normal.
But I wouldn;t take that bet. I'd just set every turnout involved in a given route every time, making no assumptions. I wouldn't trust myself, let alone anyone else, to always remember to hit the reset button after a train goes through.
richhotrainbut the programming steps can be fewer and simpler.
richhotrainWhat I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button.
greg, that is the right idea, but the programming steps can be fewer and simpler.
What I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button. Once I have completed my selection of the desired routing, when the train movements have been completed, I press the reset button to return all 8 turnouts to the Normal position. With that done, the next time a route is selected, the program steps only involve throwing certain turnouts to Reverse.
thanks Rich
so for this trackwork, the 3 major routes control the 2 crossovers and the spurs are independent of the crossovers requiring 10 pushbuttons?
INP: 01 STEP: 1 ACCY: 003 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 2 ACCY: 005 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 3 ACCY: 008 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 4 ACCY: 010 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 1 ACCY: 003 REV
INP: 01 STEP: 2 ACCY: 005 REV
INP: 03 STEP: 1 ACCY: 003 NORM
INP: 03 STEP: 2 ACCY: 005 NORM
INP: 03 STEP: 3 ACCY: 008 REV
INP: 03 STEP: 4 ACCY: 010 REV
INP: 04 STEP: 1 ACCY: 004 NORM
INP: 05 STEP: 1 ACCY: 004 REV
INP: 06 STEP: 1 ACCY: 006 NORM
INP: 07 STEP: 1 ACCY: 006 REV
INP: 07 STEP: 2 ACCY: 007 NORM
INP: 08 STEP: 1 ACCY: 006 REV
INP: 08 STEP: 2 ACCY: 007 REV
INP: 09 STEP: 1 ACCY: 009 NORM
INP: 10 STEP: 1 ACCY: 009 REV
gregc rrinker But it is ALSO super easy as Rich mentions to use a mini-panel and a switch-8 to drive the Tortoises. i'm curious. can someone explain how you would do that?
rrinker But it is ALSO super easy as Rich mentions to use a mini-panel and a switch-8 to drive the Tortoises.
i'm curious. can someone explain how you would do that?
Here is a sample excerpted from one of my track routes.
In this example, INP 01 is a set of program instructions to Pushbutton 1 to access ACCY 5, 4, 3, 2 (turnouts) setting the points Reverse, Normal, Normal, Reverse, respectively. And so on.
INP 02 is a set of program instructions to Pushbutton 2 to access ACCY 5, 4, 3, 2 (turnouts) setting the points Reverse, Normal, Reverse, Normal, respectively. The user presses a single pushbutton to activate the turnouts in the selected route.
This is definitely a natural for route control. You CAN do it with Tortoises and toggles (bagal - there have been at least two articles in the past couple of years in MR on how to do that). But it is ALSO super easy as Rich mentions to use a mini-panel and a switch-8 to drive the Tortoises. Just have to figure out the state for each turnout for a given path - is it thrown or closed? I think I'd go with more than 5 buttons for the whole plant - there is that siding where the state of the other turnouts does not matter, for one. More of an NX type setup - push the button for the track on the right that the train is coming in on, push the button on the left for the track the train will go out on.
Once the logic is figured out, the hard part is done. Buttons get installed in a track diagram on the control panel and wired to the mini panel , a single cab bus cable hooks it to the system. Press button, line turnouts. Digitrax and JMRI refer to this as 'routes'. NCE usually calls them ;macros' but a macro can do other things besides set turnouts.
The NCE page on the mini panel has some documents with examples of how this would all work. In fact, if you wanted a central control panel, there are probably enough inputs (30) on a single mini panel to make a control panel for the entire layout which plugs in to the railroad with just one cab bus connection.
Dave,
The normally closed contacts in the upper left corner should be ignored for your purposes. They are interlocks that allow a dispatcher to prevent local control and prevent any change after the train is inside the interlocking limits.
Keep this in mind with this type of diagram, relay contacts and relay coils are shown where they are in the circuit, without regard for showing them in physical proximity to each other.
Once you get use to this, this type of drawing is easier to follow in terms of what happens, and is actually easier to use in doing the wiring.
May I suggest that you change your way of thinking about turnouts. The "curved" route can be the through or "main" route.
You should simply think of 3 and 5 as a crossover. And think of its position as one idea. It is set for the mains, or it is set to crossover from one main to the other. Which part of the turnout is straight or curved is unimportant.
More later,
Yes, personally I would just wire the two crossovers and leave the sidings separate.
hon30crittergregc Do you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
Do you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
hon30critter richhotrain Dave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve. Thanks for the offer Rich. Please be patient. I have to gain a much better understanding of how the turnout logic will work first. Dave
richhotrain Dave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve.
Thanks for the offer Rich. Please be patient. I have to gain a much better understanding of how the turnout logic will work first.
Dave
richhotrainDave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
gregcDo you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
Hi Greg,
That is a very good question!
I had planned on letting a train circle either the inner or outer mainlines while I was doing some switching wherever on the layout, but your observation shows that having all three turnouts permanently linked will limit the switching operations. I'll have to decide if I can live with that.
FYI, I don't anticipate having several operators on the layout all at once. I'm pretty much a lone wolf now that I have left the club.
I'm going to go back and study all the previous posts in this thread.
hon30critter The first situation on the upper left involves turnouts #s 3, 4 and 5. If #3 is aligned to the diverging route then #5 needs to be aligned to the through route. If #3 is aligned to the through route then #4 needs to be aligned to the diverging route. The second situation on the upper right is similar. If #8 is aligned to the through route then #9 needs to be aligned to the diverging route. If #8 is aligned to the diverging route then #10 needs to be aligned to the through route.
The first situation on the upper left involves turnouts #s 3, 4 and 5. If #3 is aligned to the diverging route then #5 needs to be aligned to the through route. If #3 is aligned to the through route then #4 needs to be aligned to the diverging route.
The second situation on the upper right is similar. If #8 is aligned to the through route then #9 needs to be aligned to the diverging route. If #8 is aligned to the diverging route then #10 needs to be aligned to the through route.
hon30critterThe first situation on the upper left involves turnouts #s 3, 4 and 5. If #3 is aligned to the diverging route then #5 needs to be aligned to the through route. If #3 is aligned to the through route then #4 needs to be aligned to the diverging route.
when we've dealt with 3 turnouts in similar situations, it seems improper to force both crossover turnouts to be diverging in order to access the spur thru turnout #4. Do you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
it seems more correct that independent of turnouts #3 and #5, selecting the divering route of turnout #4 should force a Stop signal in the eastbound direction thru turnout #3 as well as when tunrout #10 is in the diverging position. Similarly, selecting the diverging route for tunout #3 or #5 should force an Approach signal in both directions
gmpullmanI have presumed there is a double-track main through here, represented by the yellow and blue lines I have drawn?
Hi Ed,
You are correct.There is a double main line running all the way around the layout.
I'm sorry, but I have a harder time following 'normal' and 'reversed' then I do with 'left' and 'right', and when you throw in 'trailing point' and 'facing point' I get lost very quickly. I need to spend some time learning the proper terms.
Regardless of the terminology, the turnout position logic is exactly the same. If turnouts #3, 4 and 5 are set to the 'normal' route they are also set to the 'right' (vs left) route, and if those same turnouts are set to the 'reversed' route then they are also set to the 'left' route.
Please pardon my inability to use the proper vernacular but the terminology is actually a minor issue. The important thing is that I believe Alan has offered a dirt simple solution to the problem. All three Tortoises can be controlled with one toggle switch if they are wired in parallel with the polarities set to match the desired routes. Throw the switch one way and all three go to the normal (right) route. Throw the switch the other way and all three go to the reversed (left) route. Couldn't be easier, and controlling the turnouts with two toggle switches (one on either side of the layout) will work fine too.
Thank you Alan!!!!
And thank you also to everyone who has offered solutions to the issue.
Cheers!!
Left and right do get confusing, Dave. My suggestion is to first, designate the main track or tracks through the "plant".
I have presumed there is a double-track main through here, represented by the yellow and blue lines I have drawn?
Dave-dilemma by Edmund, on Flickr
Therefore, any switch aligned with these main track would be considered N for Normal route.
If a turnout (or two) are thrown diverging from the main, such as at one of the two crossovers (3+5 and 8+10) you show, those turnouts would be R for "reversed" when crossing over.
Makes it much more logical that trying to understand left and right which would also depend on weather you are facing point or trailing point.
Thanks, Ed
AlantrainsJust wire all three tortoises in parallel and throw them all with one switch. Just wire them so 5 goes right while 3 & 4 go left and when you throw the switch 5 goes left and 3 &4 go right.
Hi Alan,
Your solution is incredibly simple but I'm having trouble understanding the switch positions as you have listed them.
First, I am assuming that left and right are referenced from the throw bar end of the turnouts, and that the direction refers to the route to be taken, not the position of the point rails.
The way I see it, if #5 goes left then #3 and #4 also have to go left. Having #5 and #3 set to the left creates a route through those turnouts and also positions #4 so that it does not go towards #3.
If all three turnouts are thrown to the right, then the route is through #3 and #4, and #5 is not set to go to #3.
Does that make sense?
Hi Dave,
Just wire all three tortoises in parallel and throw them all with one switch. Just wire them so 5 goes right while 3 & 4 go left and when you throw the switch 5 goes left and 3 &4 go right. No need for relays or switch its or even diodes. Same for 8, 9 and 10.
cheers
Alan
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
bagalSo much easier with solenoid switch machines, toggles for 5 and 4 are both wired to switch 3. No need for a toggle for 3.
Hi bagal,
Thanks for the suggestion, but I want to use Tortoises because of the built in switches. I will be using Peco turnouts and I already have a bunch of the Peco solenoid switches which I purchased years ago, but I much prefer the operation of the Tortoises.
So much easier with solenoid switch machines, toggles for 5 and 4 are both wired to switch 3. No need for a toggle for 3.
My current layout uses Tortoises but I'm thinking of changing to Peco turnouts and switch motors in the next rebuild. yes, I know there is an unrealistic thump, but I also find the noise of the Tortoise irritating!
Bagal
Here is a diagram showing the two situations that I am asking about:
Sheldon, I know you answered this question not too long ago, but where can I find an explanation for what the various symbols in your diagrams represent. I can identify the momentary switches but I don't understand what some of the other components are. Specifically, what are the components in the upper left under the words 'All' and 'Local'? Are they 'normally closed' relays?
Thanks everyone,
Dave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve.