richhotrain gdelmoro Ok, Wait for NCE then rewire. I could probably hire a teenager but running the bus is the easy part. It’s the standing and soldering of the feeders that will take time because i can only stand for short periods. I have a crawler (like an automotive crawler) that I use under the layout and can sit on it , roll from spot to spot and easily reach the wires. BTW The feeders are connected to teh bus with suitcase connectors. Any problem with that? I have never used suitcase connectors, but others who have seem to like them. Can you disconnect the suitcase connectors from the bus wires and then re-use the suitcase connectors once the new bus wires are installed? If you can easily install new color coded bus wires, that would be half the battle. Let me ask you this about the feeders. Since they are soldered, can you move them up and down a little to more easily identify them when you look under the layout? Or are they pretty firmly held in place? If there were some way to definitely identify them by power district, you could label them or simply reattach them to the new bus wires. Rich
gdelmoro Ok, Wait for NCE then rewire. I could probably hire a teenager but running the bus is the easy part. It’s the standing and soldering of the feeders that will take time because i can only stand for short periods. I have a crawler (like an automotive crawler) that I use under the layout and can sit on it , roll from spot to spot and easily reach the wires. BTW The feeders are connected to teh bus with suitcase connectors. Any problem with that?
Ok, Wait for NCE then rewire. I could probably hire a teenager but running the bus is the easy part. It’s the standing and soldering of the feeders that will take time because i can only stand for short periods.
I have a crawler (like an automotive crawler) that I use under the layout and can sit on it , roll from spot to spot and easily reach the wires.
BTW The feeders are connected to teh bus with suitcase connectors. Any problem with that?
I have never used suitcase connectors, but others who have seem to like them.
Can you disconnect the suitcase connectors from the bus wires and then re-use the suitcase connectors once the new bus wires are installed?
If you can easily install new color coded bus wires, that would be half the battle.
Let me ask you this about the feeders. Since they are soldered, can you move them up and down a little to more easily identify them when you look under the layout? Or are they pretty firmly held in place? If there were some way to definitely identify them by power district, you could label them or simply reattach them to the new bus wires.
Rich
You can... open the suitcase connectors and re-use them but i doesn’t always work. I have plenty new ones.
Yes the feeders have slack and can be moved. and yes, that is what I already started to do. I have long 1/4“ strips of Velcro that i have been cutting up and wrapping arround the bus and feeders.
If you look back at the first picture you can see them on the bus wires.
I ordered all the wire 14ga for busses and 18ga for feeders in 6 colors. If I don’t NEED to do the feeders now I can do that a little at a time.
Gary
Sorry the original picture does not show the markers.
gdelmoroI ordered all the wire 14ga for busses and 18ga for feeders in 6 colors. If I don’t NEED to do the feeders now I can do that a little at a time.
Alton Junction
Great minds think alike...I have 14 AWG busses and 18 AWG feeders.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
When I wired my layout I made this test car. It is a piece of thin plexiglass with trucks attached. When I started I put a piece of colored tape that matched the bus wires, on each side of the track work. Then I put matching tape on the test car. I would drill the feeder holes and insert the appropriate colored feeder into the hole. Then move the test car down the track and drill the next spot that is getting feeders. I used this method for the entire layout. If the test car somehow falls off of the track, you can always go back to the reference tape that was applied to the layout. This way you always get the right feeder to the proper rail.
The test car is so light it will derail at even minor track problems. Fixing the problems with the test car will save you a lot of headaches. I used plexiglass so I could see what the trucks were doing when it derailed.
You could use any car to do the wiring.
The buss wires should be the same color as the feeders.
SouthPen - I also used a caboose with a red stripe on one side and a black on the other.
My post on the NCE DCC Yahoo group yielded these interesting possibilities;
You may have a high resistance connection somewhere.Could be a lose a connection or corrosion
Please read my article in the SPRING 2014 RMR Callboard at http://www.rmr-nmra.org/callboard.htm This is all about the subtle difficulties that can happen with the EB1. Also note the problem with the EB1 documentation.
gdelmoro My post on the NCE DCC Yahoo group yielded these interesting possibilities; You may have a high resistance connection somewhere.Could be a lose a connection or corrosion Please read my article in the SPRING 2014 RMR Callboard at http://www.rmr-nmra.org/callboard.htm This is all about the subtle difficulties that can happen with the EB1. Also note the problem with the EB1 documentation.
The more precise link is this one:
https://sites.google.com/site/callboardmay2014/opinion
The author raises two potentially pertinent issues in that article.
One issue discusses the differences when wiring for Common Rail or not and how these differences can effect the performance of the EB1. The issue deals with the fact that the EB1 only uses shuts down one of the two ports on the circuit board. Gary, do you wire for Common Rail?
The second issue deals with wiring the EB1 backwards which can cause a failure in the EB1. Any chance that any of those failed EB1s, or all of them, were wired baclwards at one time?
The author indicates that the instructions in the manual are in error, describing the output terminals on the EB1 wired in reverse. When you speak with the tech guy at nce, ask about this error in the manual. That could be an argument in your favor.
The other replies raise the same issues as we have raised on this thread. A common reply was speculation that it is a wiring problem, although no one offers an explanation as to how all three EB1s on the layout could go bad at the same time. Other replies suggest a lightning strike, resistance, and routing of the wires.
All of this got me to thinking about something. When we did that FaceTime call on Saturday, I recall that two of the three EB1s audibly buzzed during the "quarter test". Actually, it wasn't a quarter but, rather, a large washer. I am beginning to wonder if you were pressing down too hard and too long on the washer, causing the sustained short on the circuit board to cause the buzz. I don't know if that buzz indicates that the EB1 is damaged.
richhotrain gdelmoro My post on the NCE DCC Yahoo group yielded these interesting possibilities; You may have a high resistance connection somewhere.Could be a lose a connection or corrosion Please read my article in the SPRING 2014 RMR Callboard at http://www.rmr-nmra.org/callboard.htm This is all about the subtle difficulties that can happen with the EB1. Also note the problem with the EB1 documentation. There are a lot more replies to your post on the Yahoo Groups forum than just that one, although that one is an interesting reply to your post. The more precise link is this one: https://sites.google.com/site/callboardmay2014/opinion The author raises two potentially pertinent issues in that article. One issue discusses the differences when wiring for Common Rail or not and how these differences can effect the performance of the EB1. The issue deals with the fact that the EB1 only uses shuts down one of the two ports on the circuit board. Gary, do you wire for Common Rail? The second issue deals with wiring the EB1 backwards which can cause a failure in the EB1. Any chance that any of those failed EB1s, or all of them, were wired baclwards at one time? The author indicates that the instructions in the manual are in error, describing the output terminals on the EB1 wired in reverse. When you speak with the tech guy at nce, ask about this error in the manual. That could be an argument in your favor. The other replies raise the same issues as we have raised on this thread. A common reply was speculation that it is a wiring problem, although no one offers an explanation as to how all three EB1s on the layout could go bad at the same time. Other replies suggest a lightning strike, resistance, and routing of the wires. All of this got me to thinking about something. When we did that FaceTime call on Saturday, I recall that two of the three EB1s audibly buzzed during the "quarter test". Actually, it wasn't a quarter but, rather, a large washer. I am beginning to wonder if you were pressing down too hard and too long on the washer, causing the sustained short on the circuit board to cause the buzz. I don't know if that buzz indicates that the EB1 is damaged. Rich
There are a lot more replies to your post on the Yahoo Groups forum than just that one, although that one is an interesting reply to your post.
Rich, I’m not sure what qualifies as common rail. I wire the Red & Black track power from the control station to a terminal block where both are jumpered to two others yealding 3 Red and 3 Black. From there a pair of each is wired into the input side of the EB1. From there each EB1 has it’s own bus. Feeders from the track are dropped to the associated bus.
is that common rail?
there were a couple times the washer was dancing on the rails and I pushed down. Other times i just placed it there.
How does the error in the manual impact the Eb1 operation?
richhotrainActually, it wasn't a quarter but, rather, a large washer. I am beginning to wonder if you were pressing down too hard and too long on the washer, causing the sustained short on the circuit board to cause the buzz.
Since the breaker is supposed to pretty instantly trip once a short occurs, I don't see how pressing down too hard or too long after the fact can affect anything...unless the breaker is not tripping.
Here’s a question; since last week the layout districts have been up and running with the main connected to the working EB1 and the other two districts connected directly to the control station through the terminal strip.
I’ve tested the main by shorting it out with the washer and only the main breaker trips the yards remain up and working.
Does that help me related to rewiring the main?
Shot in the dark.
I think it's still possible that if there was a feeder from the yard bus to the main, and you short the main, the EB1 trips the main before it affects the command station via the yard.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
gdelmoro Here’s a question; since last week the layout districts have been up and running with the main connected to the working EB1 and the other two districts connected directly to the control station through the terminal strip. I’ve tested the main by shorting it out with the washer and only the main breaker trips the yards remain up and working. Does that help me related to rewiring the main? Shot in the dark.
maxman richhotrain Actually, it wasn't a quarter but, rather, a large washer. I am beginning to wonder if you were pressing down too hard and too long on the washer, causing the sustained short on the circuit board to cause the buzz. Since the breaker is supposed to pretty instantly trip once a short occurs, I don't see how pressing down too hard or too long after the fact can affect anything...unless the breaker is not tripping.
richhotrain Actually, it wasn't a quarter but, rather, a large washer. I am beginning to wonder if you were pressing down too hard and too long on the washer, causing the sustained short on the circuit board to cause the buzz.
i think we are back to square 1. When I short the yards the breaker LED goes out and the controller blinks. When I remove the screw driver they both come back on.
Got to be a crossed feeder.
gdelmoro i think we are back to square 1. When I short the yards the breaker LED goes out and the controller blinks. When I remove the screw driver they both come back on. Got to be a crossed feeder.
If you connected just one yard and shorted it, it should take out the controller, but would it take out the EB-1, repeat with the other yard. This has to be discoverable.
Same thing occurred with both yards. Let me go back down and hold the short longer to see if the LED Blinks.
Ok, when I short either yard the EB1 Trips (LED goes off) and control station blinks. If I hold the short on the EB1 Led tries to come on bli9nks once then goes off.
gdelmoroSame thing occurred with both yards. Let me go back down and hold the short longer to see if the LED Blinks.
I think when you short the yards, the EB'1 would receive a short incoming via the input just before the controller shuts off. I don't know if that is detected the same as a short or it's bad for the EB1.
gdelmoro Ok, when I short either yard the EB1 Trips (LED goes off) and control station blinks. If I hold the short on the EB1 Led tries to come on bli9nks once then goes off.
Ok, give me a few minutes
BigDaddy gdelmoro Same thing occurred with both yards. Let me go back down and hold the short longer to see if the LED Blinks. I think when you short the yards, the EB'1 would receive a short incoming via the input just before the controller shuts off. I don't know if that is detected the same as a short or it's bad for the EB1.
gdelmoro Same thing occurred with both yards. Let me go back down and hold the short longer to see if the LED Blinks.
Each power district needs to be protected by a working circuit breaker, so that a short never reaches the booster. DUH.
With the two yards disconnected, I short the main (place the washer and leave it there), the breaker LED goes off the Control Station light stays on after a few seconds the breaker LED Blinks. It continues to blink as long as I leave the washer in place.
When I remove the washer, the breaker LED comes back on.
So crossed wires? Or Just confirmation the EB1 is good?
gdelmoro With the two yards disconnected, I short the main (place the washer and leave it there), the breaker LED goes off the Control Station light stays on after a few seconds the breaker LED Blinks. It continues to blink as long as I leave the washer in place. When I remove the washer, the breaker LED comes back on.
Now, reconnect the yards to the booster, and short the Main. The EB1 LED should go off, then come on flashing, and the booster LED should stay lit.
gdelmoro So crossed wires? Or Just confirmation the EB1 is good?
Can’t go up and down stairs again right now. I’ll do it as soon as I can. May be in the AM.
gdelmoro Can’t go up and down stairs again right now. I’ll do it as soon as I can. May be in the AM.
If you reconnect the yards to the booster and short the Main, the EB1 should shut down the Main but leave the yards powered as long as there are no crossed feeders between the Main bus and the yard(s) feeders.
Maybe I missed it, but what is the trip current set on the EB-1s? What is the time delay set at?