Gary, I do not pretend to know the ins and outs of electrical circuits the way some folks do. However, I do think that you have to get under your layout and check every single wiring connection, connection by connection. And, much as it pains me to type this, you may want to consider tearing up all the wiring and rewire the whole layout. It is possible that whatever caused the failure of those four EB1's might still be there. And installing new circuit breakers, regardless of manufacturer, may mean frying the new units.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
gdelmoro “Rich: Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault?” When I installed them originally, I tested each district and they all worked like the last one we installed. I don’t get alot of shorts so it has been a long time since a short occurred. The defining event was several weeks ago when a loco derailed and shorted out the whole layout. Then I started testing and posted this thread. It doesn’t seem there is too much one can do to kill all three at teh same time. What kinds of thinks could cause that short of dumping water on them? I’ll let you know what they say.
“Rich: Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault?”
When I installed them originally, I tested each district and they all worked like the last one we installed. I don’t get alot of shorts so it has been a long time since a short occurred. The defining event was several weeks ago when a loco derailed and shorted out the whole layout. Then I started testing and posted this thread.
It doesn’t seem there is too much one can do to kill all three at teh same time. What kinds of thinks could cause that short of dumping water on them?
I’ll let you know what they say.
I see a catastrophic failure here.
One possibility is that the short somehow got through the input side of the terminal block where the wires daisy chain to all four EB1s. Don't ask me how that could happen.
Another possibility is a power surge, maybe lightning during a storm?
It is interesting that the damage surfaced following that loco derailment, but what that means, I have no idea.
Whatever the cause, I hope that NCE will offer some speculation.
Rich
Alton Junction
Gary, for what it is worth, I agree you should deal with NCE. But if you have 4 CBs that are bad you might want to consider an alternative. Everything can go bad, though, but it is your money.
And if you do get the PSXs, they can be daisy chained...bag the terminal strip.
Gary
richhotrain gdelmoro Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem. Two of those EB1s were buzzing when the short was created through the quarter test. That is not a good sign. The other two EB1s failed to trip at all, passing the short through to the booster. My assumption is that all four EB1s are somehow damaged. Since NCE thinks that they will all work fine when they get them, perhaps there is some reset function like Randy mentioned. But, I am skeptical that the two that buzzed can be salvaged. Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault? Keep us posted. Rich
gdelmoro Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem.
Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem.
Two of those EB1s were buzzing when the short was created through the quarter test. That is not a good sign. The other two EB1s failed to trip at all, passing the short through to the booster. My assumption is that all four EB1s are somehow damaged.
Since NCE thinks that they will all work fine when they get them, perhaps there is some reset function like Randy mentioned. But, I am skeptical that the two that buzzed can be salvaged.
Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault?
Keep us posted.
I agree they’re all bad but i‘m interested to see what they say. I have $135 standing by for a PSX4 if NCE doesn’t replace or discount new ones.
rrinker I thought the 4th, extra one worked like it was supposed to. Or was that a 5th one? --Randy
I thought the 4th, extra one worked like it was supposed to. Or was that a 5th one?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Gary, my suggestion is to write down the serial numbers, assuming there are serial numbers, and the power district that each was connected to, and refer to the serial numbers when you send them back.
Just talked to NCE. I told them that I have 4 EB1’s that do not work and asked if they would take a look and see what’s wrong. They agreed to take them and look at them. The tech stated that the chances of 4 breakers going bad are slim to none. He said they would probably get them and they will be working fine. Usually it’s a wiring problem. I told him I had checked it out and confirmed the wiring with knowledgable people on teh MR Forum. He said I could send them back and they would take a look and see if they can determine what happened.
I’ll send them and see what they say.
That is what I surmised from reading the manual. They use one LED to indicate both power getting tot he EB-1 AND the EB01 detecting a short, so if the booster trips first, I would expect the lights on the EB-1 to blink along with the booster's LED.
Gary pretty much summed it all up.
Fortunately, he had a brand new EB1 that we were able to use and test.
It worked flawlessly as expected and, of course, we isolated it from the layout itself for testing purposes.
I was curious how the EB1 reacts when it detects a fault. With power on, the EB1 status LED stays lit. When a short is detected, the LED light goes off, then comes back on with a series a blinks until the short is resolved. The booster status light stays constantly lit, as expected, indicating that the EB1 is resolving the short, since the 2.5 amp trip current default on the EB1 is less than the 5 amp booster. So, the EB1 handles the short, leaving the booster undisturbed to power the other power districts.
Hi all,
Rich spent about an hour on the phone with me (equal to about three weeks worth of posts). We checked each EB1 isolated from the railroad on separate pieces of track as suggested and did the continuity test on the railroad.
To make a loooong story short the EB1’s are not working. Confirmed by a new EB1 working on test and railroad tracks. The good news is that there are no crossed wires on any of the three districts. The ones I thought might be hooked to the wrong bus were not. It was a section of the railroad where 3 mainline and two yard tracks run parallel and I wasn’t really sure. I had abandoned the under layout tracing for the recommended testing and i’m Glad I did.
Thanks again Rich I really appreciate it.
Plan now is to contact NCE to see if they will replace the breakers or maybe discount new ones. There must have been something wrong because otherwise I don’t know how all three could just go bad.
You might ask why now. Well the truth is the all breakers going at once thing did in fact happen a while ago but I always thoght i screwed something up with the bus and feeder wires. When I tested the Ferry yard and it worked it still must of been that breaker. Today it did several different things but never preformed correctly.
Anyway Thanks fore all the replies. And as always special thanks to Randy and Rich.
Like I said, worth a shot to try the reset, just in case. If they ARE dead - do NOT hook up any replacements until the cross wired feeders are fixed - as I mentioned earlier, if anything killed them, it was power feeding back in to the outputs.
maxmanIf the black wire mentioned comes from the power supply to the command station, where is the red wire from the power supply connected?
It's the power cable from the NCE equivalent of a wall wart. Both wires are in the cable.
Gary nice job on the video, it removes all misunderstandings of what you describe. Sorry you are having this problem. If the EB1's are toast, maybe NCE will warranty them.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Quite frankly, I think those EB1's are dead.
Yeah NONE of the breakers is tripping, it's JUST the booster tripping. The LEDs on the EB-1 are only flashing because the power to them is going on and off as the booster tries to reset.
Only other thing I can suggest before calling all 3 EB-1's dead, is to try and reset them. Use Ops Mode POM to an address you know yoou do not have a loco set to. Put a jumper on the setup position. Theoretically you can do all 3 at the same time but I'd suggest one at a time. Using Ops Mode, set CV147=85. Then cut power, take the setup jumper off, and move on to the next EB-1. After all 3 have been reset, try the same test in the last video again. If you get the same results, I cna only conclude that all 3 EB-1s are defective.
You can test for crossed feeders another way as well - connect JUST the main, right to the booster. You should noot be able to drive a train into the ferry or sort yards, they should die as they cross the gap. If it still runs, there's a crossed feeder.
Reason I suggested hooking up 3 tracks and all 3 EB-1s is that if the first oone works, and the quarter only trips the EB01, you should be able to do the same to #2 and #3, shorting any combination of 2 tracks or all 3 without the booster tripping, if it all is working properly. Trying one at a time is a good start, but if that works, you should be able to trip a second section and still not trip the booster.
gdelmoroThe black wire to the right of the EB1’s comes from the power supply on the top left of the photo and feeds directly into the power terminal on the Command station.
If the black wire mentioned comes from the power supply to the command station, where is the red wire from the power supply connected?
The pieces of track are individually wired to individual breakers. There is nothing else connected.
richhotrain Do those tests now, pleeeeeze, I am dying of curiosity. Rich
Do those tests now, pleeeeeze, I am dying of curiosity.
Ok but this is not good....
The same thing happened with each track the breakers ALL go off no matter which track I short.
https://youtu.be/vdrY6_VO5XQ
Look at the bright side Rich, it's not your layout.
richhotrain The three separate pieces of track test will determine if each breaker is tripping or if, instead, the booster is tripping. As each breaker is tested, you should not expect both the booster and the breaker to blink. If fact, only the breaker should blink in each instance. The continuity test will determine if each power district is completely isolated from the other two power districts. Rich
The three separate pieces of track test will determine if each breaker is tripping or if, instead, the booster is tripping. As each breaker is tested, you should not expect both the booster and the breaker to blink. If fact, only the breaker should blink in each instance.
The continuity test will determine if each power district is completely isolated from the other two power districts.
Thanks
gdelmoro So the EB1’s are connected to the black wire of each bus is connected to the black dot on that EB1 manual diagram. The red is to the circuit breaker Connection.
So the EB1’s are connected to the black wire of each bus is connected to the black dot on that EB1 manual diagram. The red is to the circuit breaker Connection.
gdelmoro Another good easy test. In addition to teh breaker test I do this too. I guess I can connect one probe to the output of the EB1 for each district. Removing the wire from the EB1 so it‘S not in the mix. I assume I then do the same with the black bus wire?
Another good easy test. In addition to teh breaker test I do this too.
I guess I can connect one probe to the output of the EB1 for each district. Removing the wire from the EB1 so it‘S not in the mix.
I assume I then do the same with the black bus wire?
That said, have a go at it, test both rails, red and black.
Chances are though, the continuity test will fail because there are likely cross wired feeders.
gdelmoro I’ll set up and do the three piece track breaker test. Good to know idf the breakers are working. Don’t I need just one track to test each individually?
I’ll set up and do the three piece track breaker test. Good to know idf the breakers are working. Don’t I need just one track to test each individually?
Sure, you could just check one breaker at a time on one piece of track.
But, I like Randy's suggestion to wire the three sections of track to the output sides of the three breakers.
That is a more comprehensive test.