“Rich: Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault?”
When I installed them originally, I tested each district and they all worked like the last one we installed. I don’t get alot of shorts so it has been a long time since a short occurred. The defining event was several weeks ago when a loco derailed and shorted out the whole layout. Then I started testing and posted this thread.
It doesn’t seem there is too much one can do to kill all three at teh same time. What kinds of thinks could cause that short of dumping water on them?
I’ll let you know what they say.
Gary
Gary, for what it is worth, I agree you should deal with NCE. But if you have 4 CBs that are bad you might want to consider an alternative. Everything can go bad, though, but it is your money.
And if you do get the PSXs, they can be daisy chained...bag the terminal strip.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
gdelmoro “Rich: Since NCE is initially ruling out a catastrophic failure of all four, it begs the question, what could have caused the four EB1s to fail? If all four turn out to be bad, what happened? Was it your fault for something you did wrong, or is it a manufacturing fault?” When I installed them originally, I tested each district and they all worked like the last one we installed. I don’t get alot of shorts so it has been a long time since a short occurred. The defining event was several weeks ago when a loco derailed and shorted out the whole layout. Then I started testing and posted this thread. It doesn’t seem there is too much one can do to kill all three at teh same time. What kinds of thinks could cause that short of dumping water on them? I’ll let you know what they say.
I see a catastrophic failure here.
One possibility is that the short somehow got through the input side of the terminal block where the wires daisy chain to all four EB1s. Don't ask me how that could happen.
Another possibility is a power surge, maybe lightning during a storm?
It is interesting that the damage surfaced following that loco derailment, but what that means, I have no idea.
Whatever the cause, I hope that NCE will offer some speculation.
Rich
Alton Junction
Gary, I do not pretend to know the ins and outs of electrical circuits the way some folks do. However, I do think that you have to get under your layout and check every single wiring connection, connection by connection. And, much as it pains me to type this, you may want to consider tearing up all the wiring and rewire the whole layout. It is possible that whatever caused the failure of those four EB1's might still be there. And installing new circuit breakers, regardless of manufacturer, may mean frying the new units.
bearman Gary, I do not pretend to know the ins and outs of electrical circuits the way some folks do. However, I do think that you have to get under your layout and check every single wiring connection, connection by connection.
Gary, I do not pretend to know the ins and outs of electrical circuits the way some folks do. However, I do think that you have to get under your layout and check every single wiring connection, connection by connection.
If you like your current track configuration, re-wire the layout. Remove all three buses and install new buses, each made of different color wires. Use 14 gauge, adequate and more flexible than 12 gauge.
Match the feeders by color to the bus.
Only wire the Main bus for starters. Add feeders. Make sure it all works correctly.
Then wire the second bus. Add feeders. Make sure that both power districts were correctly and independently.
Then wire the third bus and repeat the verification process.
Amen, Rich, amen!
So I'm confused now, (doesn't take much). I thought we confirmed that the districts were separate with the continuity tests. If there was a crossed wire it would have shown.
Are we saying although there are no crossed feeders, there may be some other wiring mistake that can transfer current between busses?
Yes, Gary, that is what I am saying. If there is a wiring problem that you dont know about, then installing new circuit breakers without fixing the problem will just fry the new units. I am sure that a root canal would be a lot more pleasurable than ripping out the wiring and starting over, but it may be necessary. Four circuit breakers dont fail all at the same time for no obvious reason.
bearman Yes, Gary, that is what I am saying. If there is a wiring problem that you dont know about, then installing new circuit breakers without fixing the problem will just fry the new units. I am sure that a root canal would be a lot more pleasurable than ripping out the wiring and starting over, but it may be necessary. Four circuit breakers dont fail all at the same time for no obvious reason.
well... I have MS and although this project would take you about 5 days it will take me at least 5 to 6 weeks.
I assume I can leave the feeders soldered to the track?
Randy, Rich, everyone in agreement?
If you can get a locomotive to run on the rails with only feeders connected, no other devices, then yes, the feeders can be left soldered...there's no short. Otherwise, nothing would run, and your power pack would probably indicate a short...a fuse would blow or something.
If you then take each numbered (masking tape) unit and install them in series, one at a time, and you get the same results, you're good. Once you find that one of the units doesn't work, you may have found a/the faulty unit. But, I would install it in the same place...NOT where you originally had it. This is just so make doubly sure you don't have one crossed feeder somewhere that is a confound. Even so, your power pack fuse or circuit breaker should let you know if you have even one remote crossed feeder.
I will defer to selector's comment, but, yes, you probably can leave the feeedrs soldered to the track.
I can understand, although I have never had one, I can understand how an electrical probelm can be very frustrating.
selector, that still does not solve the problem of a crossed feeder. if there is one or more, you still have to find it/them.
Have you ever tried using a meter to check the voltage across the track gaps?
Set the meter to around 20 volts AC. For this test you don't need a "DCC" voltmeter. Touch one lead to a rail on one side of the gap. Touch the other lead to the same rail on the other side of the gap. If the rails are the same polarity, the meter will read zero. If the rails are opposing polarity, then you will read approximately DCC system voltage. That will mean that you have track connections crossed some place.
Another question...do you have a short with no locos or cars on the track?
And you have definitely checked to make sure you don't have anything metallic across the track, like a coupler height gage? And you have not recently added one of those metal track bumpers and forgot to insulate one of the rails where the bumper attaches to the track?
maxman Have you ever tried using a meter to check the voltage across the track gaps? Set the meter to around 20 volts AC. For this test you don't need a "DCC" voltmeter. Touch one lead to a rail on one side of the gap. Touch the other lead to the same rail on the other side of the gap. If the rails are the same polarity, the meter will read zero. If the rails are opposing polarity, then you will read approximately DCC system voltage. That will mean that you have track connections crossed some place. Another question...do you have a short with no locos or cars on the track? And you have definitely checked to make sure you don't have anything metallic across the track, like a coupler height gage? And you have not recently added one of those metal track bumpers and forgot to insulate one of the rails where the bumper attaches to the track?
We did check for continuity across gaps between districts and got nothing. We also chceked for continuity between rails and between districts and rails. In other words a probe on the north rail of the ferry yard and check every track rail of the main and sorting yard. As we’ll as the reverse for both yards and the main.
There was no continuity anywhere. Doesn’t that do the same thing?
All locos run on all tracks without a problem. That was never a problem. The short occurred when a loco derailed and the trucks bridged the tracks.
There is no short until I short it. The problem was that all three breakers tripped at the same time and the control station tripped.
I see the purist view that starting over with different color bus wires has a certain "beauty". I am a bit sceptical that this electrical fault that caused this much damage can't be diagnosed and requires ripping out all the wiring in hopes that Gary won't make the same mistake (whatever that was) again.
Now I also said that it was unlikely that all 3, now 4, circuit breakers were dead and yet dead they are, so I was wrong about that. Would a power surge take out the circuit breakers and not the booster?
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I have no idea, Henry, about the power surge but at this point Gary's issue is special in that I dont think anyone knows what the original sin was all about. There is something wrong and not necessarily with the circuit breakers. But they are fried and I think installing new ones may end up with new fried circuit breakers.
Gary: Put me down on the team that says "Do Not Tear Out " your wiring. You wrote that all your locomotives operate on all your tracks. That proves your wiring is operating corectly. I do not know what causes the issues you are having with this little test bench, but I am certain it is not your main layout wiring.
Old Fat Robert
gdelmoroWe did check for continuity across gaps between districts and got nothing.
No, not the same thing. What you would be checking for is the answer to the do you have wires crossed question. This requires power on the tracks. If you have voltage across a gap on the same rail, then one rail is wired opposite to the same rail across the gap.
Well, since I was the guy who first suggested that the layout be rewired, let me explain why I made such a radical recommendation. I have several reasons for having made it.
1. The layout was initially wired for DC and later converted to DCC. Now, that in and of itself may not be a good reason to rewire the layout from scratch. However, when other factors are taken into account, it may be sufficient reason to rewire the layout.
2. This layout has a history of failures, as evidenced by a number of threads started by Gary, and these failures are attributable to the wiring. All three buses are positioned close together, within an inch or so of one another, and all three buses are red and black wires, as are the feeders. So, cross wiring of the feeders is a real possibility.
3. I would consider three damaged EB1s, apparently the failures all occurring at the same time, as a catastrophic event. Barring an act of God (e.g., a lightning strike), it seems to me that a wiring fault was to blame. What was the wiring fault, I cannot say.
When I had Gary test each power district separately, using a known good EB1, each power district performed flawlessly. But prior to my phon call with Gary, a short in one power district was also shutting down the other powr districts. We concluded that the booster was shutting down the layout. So, something apparently destroyed those circuit breakers. Since at least 2 of the 3 circuit breakers were audibly humming during the quarter test, I assume that the circuit breakers are fried.
What I fear on Gary's behalf is that he spends good money to purchase new circuit breakers only to have them fail due to some wiring snafu. Rewiring the layout, using different color coding for the wiring, seems like the prudent thing to do, all things considered.
maxman gdelmoro We did check for continuity across gaps between districts and got nothing. No, not the same thing. What you would be checking for is the answer to the do you have wires crossed question. This requires power on the tracks. If you have voltage across a gap on the same rail, then one rail is wired opposite to the same rail across the gap.
gdelmoro We did check for continuity across gaps between districts and got nothing.
As an example, to conduct the test, one probe was placed on a rail in the Main power district, and the other probe was placed on a rail in Ferry Yard. No continuity. The probe was then moved to the other rail in Ferry yard. No continuity. That test indicated that there were no cross wired feeders between the Main and Ferry.
These continuity tests were repeated for Main/Sort Yard and Ferry Yard/Sort Yard. No continuity, so no cross wired feeders. If there was continuity between power districts, this would indicate that a feeder was wired to a different bus than the one dedicated to that particular power district.
Before my call to Gary, I conducted similar tests on my own layout with multiple power districts. So, I think that this is a valid test, and I believe that it was Randy who first suggested it earlier in this thread.
Gary, I understand that you may have some health issues, but I really think you should rip out your wiring and rewire your layout. It will take some time, but ultimately it is better than frying another 4 circuit breakers and spending more time trying to figure out what is screwed up.
richhotrain The layout was initially wired for DC and later converted to DCC.
I have been watching this thread, because of constant on going problems Gary has had. I haven't chimed in because I use Digitrax, and I'm still learning.
Did Gary do the "common wire" for the DC wiring? or did he gap both rails in anticipation of going to DCC. Is there something from the DC wiring that is haunting his efforts to get a reliable DCC operation?
It's just so hard to believe that all of his circuit breakers went at once, over one locomotive derail.
Can all of his extra appliances, like circuit breakers, etc.,etc., be elimianted, get down to the bare bones wiring, and test from there? Nothing extra, just the command station and throttle.
It's one of those things your desperately trying to help him with, but your not there, in person, to see it for yourself.
Maybe a complete rewiring is in order. I wouldn't even trust any feeders at this point.
My to those of you that have been helping him out.
Now I'll go back to watching.
Mike.
My You Tube
Gary's subject line is "Can't Understand System Short". The problem is that no one can figure it out.
bearman Gary's subject line is "Can't Understand System Short". The problem is that no one can figure it out.
I trust Rich’s expertise and it has been coorborated by several others. Even though I don’t understand why, it looks like I need to rewire.
Probably won’t be hearing from me for a while.
Trusting Rich is a good thing. Yeah, rewiring is not a happy situation, but it does appear that it is the best solution at this point.
gdelmoro I trust Rich’s expertise and it has been coorborated by several others. Even though I don’t understand why, it looks like I need to rewire. Probably won’t be hearing from me for a while.
But if you do rewire, I would remove all of the wiring from the entire layout, buses and feeders. Then, I would rewire the Main first. Install the bus wires, then drop matching color feeders and connect to the Main bus. Make sure that the Main power district is completely gapped and isolated. Connect to the circuit breaker and do the quarter test.
Then repeat the process with different colored bus wires and matching feeders on one of the yards. Then, after testing, do the other yard.
Lot of work, but the result will permit you to enjoy your layout for years to come.
By the way, Gary, I was unaware of your disability until you recently mentioned it in this thread. I wonder if you could hire a local teenager to install the bus wires running them close to the edges of the layout. You could then drop feeders and more easily attach them to the bus wires without having to crawl under the layout.
Rich, are you sure he needs to remove the feeders?
richhotrain gdelmoro I trust Rich’s expertise and it has been coorborated by several others. Even though I don’t understand why, it looks like I need to rewire. Probably won’t be hearing from me for a while. I wouldn't do anything until you hear back from NCE. I would take it one step at a time. But if you do rewire, I would remove all of the wiring from the entire layout, buses and feeders. Then, I would rewire the Main first. Install the bus wires, then drop matching color feeders and connect to the Main bus. Make sure that the Main power district is completely gapped and isolated. Connect to the circuit breaker and do the quarter test. Then repeat the process with different colored bus wires and matching feeders on one of the yards. Then, after testing, do the other yard. Lot of work, but the result will permit you to enjoy your layout for years to come. By the way, Gary, I was unaware of your disability until you recently mentioned it in this thread. I wonder if you could hire a local teenager to install the bus wires running them close to the edges of the layout. You could then drop feeders and more easily attach them to the bus wires without having to crawl under the layout. Rich
I wouldn't do anything until you hear back from NCE. I would take it one step at a time.
Ok, Wait for NCE then rewire. I could probably hire a teenager but running the bus is the easy part. It’s the standing and soldering of the feeders that will take time because i can only stand for short periods.
I have a crawler (like an automotive crawler) that I use under the layout and can sit on it , roll from spot to spot and easily reach the wires.
BTW The feeders are connected to teh bus with suitcase connectors. Any problem with that?
gdelmoro Ok, Wait for NCE then rewire. I could probably hire a teenager but running the bus is the easy part. It’s the standing and soldering of the feeders that will take time because i can only stand for short periods. I have a crawler (like an automotive crawler) that I use under the layout and can sit on it , roll from spot to spot and easily reach the wires. BTW The feeders are connected to teh bus with suitcase connectors. Any problem with that?
Can you disconnect the suitcase connectors from the bus wires and then re-use the suitcase connectors once the new bus wires are installed?
If you can easily install new color coded bus wires, that would be half the battle.
Let me ask you this about the feeders. Since they are soldered, can you move them up and down a little to more easily identify them when you look under the layout? Or are they pretty firmly held in place? If there were some way to definitely identify them by power district, you could label them or simply reattach them to the new bus wires.