According to the instructions, the trip current can only be set by the jumpers. Trip time, how long it stays off (or manual reset), and the way it comes back on (there's an option for staged power restoration, to handle high inrush current sound decoders) is all set via CVs.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I had issues with the PSXs not working properly with a CVP Easy DCC 10 Amp booster. Not the same equipment, but the same problem; the system shut down instead of the individual circuit board protecting the block.
Changing the circuit board to "manual reset" solved the issue. The EB1 manual, page 4, needs to have CV 131 set to a value of "1" to enable the manual reset.
Do the quarter test again to see if the EB1 protects its block without shutting down the entire system.
If it passes this test, install a momentary open push button on terminal 1 & 2. Push the button to reset the circuit breaker.
This problem is typical when using a newer command station and older circuit breakers.
Making progress, there is a point under the layout where the Main and Sorting yard busses cross and there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus.
I have now color coded the three districts busses and feeders with colored Velcro wrap. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then chck that al the main feeders are connected only to teh main. I don’t think the main will be a problem since i installed that before i added the two yards. But, you never know.
I didn’t know I could program the breakers. I need to look into that AFTER I confirm all connections.
Gary
Bag the terminal strip and the NCE circuit breakers. Get 3 PSX1s (or 1 PSX3) daisy chain them and connect directly to the control box.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
gdelmoro Making progress, there is a point under the layout where the Main and Sorting yard busses cross and there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus. I have now color coded the three districts busses and feeders with colored Velcro wrap. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then chck that al the main feeders are connected only to teh main. I don’t think the main will be a problem since i installed that before i added the two yards. But, you never know. I didn’t know I could program the breakers. I need to look into that AFTER I confirm all connections.
Looking at feeders under the layout is not as reliable as actual testing, such as the quarter test, isolating circuit breakers from one another, bypassing the terminal block. Good investigative work requires the process of elimination, trying to eliminate possible trouble spots.
As far as color coding feeding wires is concerned, using colored tape or Velcro strips or whatever, is less reliable than the actual use of colored wire. If this is going to be a permanent layout, you should set up a protocol for bus wires and for feeders. Do you want one set of bus wires or do you want a main bus and a sub bus for each of the two yards? Each bus should consist of different colored wires and the feeders should match the colors of the respective bus wires.
Rich
Alton Junction
BigDaddyThere is something you have yet to discover about your wiring.
gdelmoro there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus.
That explains some of the short behavior, without having to replace anything. Two of your districts were really one district powered by two circuit breakers.
Somewhere there is also a connection between the Ferry Yard and one of the other two.districts.
EDIT As I think about it, it might be useful to repeat the quarter test if you have completely sorted through the Sorting Yard wiring. My theory is there is no conflict between your booster and the circuit breakers. If the Main and the Sorting are now truly isolated, the quarter in one, will not affect the other. But the quarter in onef of those yards will take out the Ferry yard too.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Rich, shouldn’t the first step be making sure the wiring is correct?
Confirming that ONLY Feeders from each district are connected to the appropriate bus?
Once that is confirmed then I can do the other tests. No?
Also I see in the EB1 Manual that I’m supposed to remove the “shunt” after installation is complete. I’m not doing any of this programming but the “Jumper/Shunt” remains in place.
Method 1:
Any DCC system that has OPs mode programming (Program On the Main) for locomotives can program CVs. Whenever the “SETUP” shunt is installed the EB1 will respond to loco OPS mode programming no matter what locomotive address is used. We recommend choosing an address that is not in use on your layout (we use 9999). Remember that the shunt must be installed to use this method of setting CVs. Do not forget to remove the shunt when done programming.
Method 2:
If you have an NCE (or other system) that supports OPs mode programming of accessories you can program CVs without having to install the “SETUP” shunt.
The EB1 comes from the factory preprogrammed to the accessory address of 2044 (the accessory broadcast address).
To change the address:
Install the “SETUP” shunt
Press SELECT ACCY on your controller
Type in the new address you want to EB1 to use followed by ENTER Press 1 (for NORMAL) when prompted on your controller
Remove the shunt
The EB1 will now respond to Accessory Programming at the address you just programmed.
All three of my EB1’s still have this jumper installed. Is that a problem? Also the manual is not clear since the diagram refers to this jumper as “Setup Jumper” and the text above calls it a “Shunt”. I’m assuming it’s the same thing.
Gary I edited my post while you were posting yours.
A shunt would be a jumper. I did read the directions a couple days ago, but it wasn't clear to me what them meant. However it must be the setup jumper.
Rich or Randy will have to explain what it's effect is but if they say to remove it, I would remove it before further testing, and save it some place safe, in case you do want to use the programming function later.
gdelmoro Rich, shouldn’t the first step be making sure the wiring is correct? Confirming that ONLY Feeders from each district are connected to the appropriate bus? Once that is confirmed then I can do the other tests. No?
But, a visual check of the wiring often fails to detect a fault. You, me, and a host of others on the forum have visually checked our wiring at one time or another and concluded that all is well when it isn't. That's why other, more appropriate, voltage and current tests are more reliable.
Gary, I don't own the EB1, but as I read the manual, shunt and jumper are one and the same.
Regarding the Setup Jumper, you should "remove" it because you are not using it. To remove it, and to prevent losing it, just keep it on the circuit board by leaving it on only one of the two pins.
Regarding the trip current jumpers (shunts), if you simply default to 2.5 amps, none of the shunts should be in place. Again, to avoid losing them, just leave each connected to only one of the two pins. If no shunts are in place (that is, none of them connect to both pins), the EB1 should trip above 2.5 amps.
I'm willing to bet 100% of the problems are caused by crossed feeders.
Unless you have a really big layout, it can be hard to color code bus wires, or at least expensive - since at least with heavier wire, a long spool is significantly less cost than multple shorter rolls. Also, at least in the big box stores, as the wire gets thicker, the number of color choices goes down.
As an alternative, you can label the wire every so often. Masking tape and a Sharpie marker work, but for neatness you can buy books of sticky letters and numbers to wrap around the wires. I had 4 bus runs on my last layout, in general only 3 ever ran in close proximity, I just labeled them using 1, 2, 3, and 4 numbers from the label pads. Whatever scheme you use to label the wire, write it down.
Rich - Programming jumper removed and all placed on one pin for each breaker.
Randy - That’s what I’m doing - Marking each of the three district Busses and the corresponding feeders with a color. Frankly I don’t have the energy to rip out all the buss wire tro color code the 12ga wire now So I’m marking it.
Hope to finish confirming each track feeder is attachEMD to the correct bus this weekend. Then if the problem remains, I’ll start the other testing.
Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated.
OK, good luck with the visual checking of feeders.
I can't help though but to go back to the photo that you posted at the start of this thread.
It would be so easy to disconnect two of the EB1s and do the quarter test on the connected power district. Then, repeat the process with the other two EB1s.
That way, you will quickly find the problem or at least the source of the problem.
I just think that you are doing it the hard way.
Gary, I have been thinking my about your layout this morning and the issues that you raised in your original post. Let's go over the basics as they relate to your layout.
From the photo that you provided, your 5 amp PH-Pro runs a pair of 12 gauge red and black wires to a terminal block that then distributes power to the input side of the three EB1 circuit breakers. Each EB1 runs a pair of 12 gauge red and black wires from the output side of the EB1 to serve as a the power district for the Mains, the Ferry Yard, and the Sorting Yard. Each of the three power districts is gapped and isolated from one another. As you measure power, each power district is receiving 14.3 volts from the command station power supply and that is the recommended power according to NCE. Presently, there are no connected jumpers (shunts) on any of the EB1s and you have not programmed any CVs. So, the default trip adjustment on each EB1 is 2.5 amps.
gdelmoro
gdelmoro The control box is connected to a terminal strip and then to three NBE Circuit Breakers which segrate the 2 mainlines (Main) from the Sorting yard and Ferry Yard. If I disconnect the wires from the terminal block feeding the two yards and check track voltage with my rampmeter I get 14.3 ONLY on the Main the other two districts are dead. The two yards are gapped and have no connection to the Main lines. If i do the same with each district I get the same the connected one reads track voltage and the other two are dead. All sounds good.
The control box is connected to a terminal strip and then to three NBE Circuit Breakers which segrate the 2 mainlines (Main) from the Sorting yard and Ferry Yard.
If I disconnect the wires from the terminal block feeding the two yards and check track voltage with my rampmeter I get 14.3 ONLY on the Main the other two districts are dead.
The two yards are gapped and have no connection to the Main lines. If i do the same with each district I get the same the connected one reads track voltage and the other two are dead. All sounds good.
gdelmoro When I connect all the breakers and all the districts are live placing a quarter on the Main shorts out all three breakers.
When I connect all the breakers and all the districts are live placing a quarter on the Main shorts out all three breakers.
gdelmoro If i disconnect the terminal block, how do I feed the three breakers?
If i disconnect the terminal block, how do I feed the three breakers?
gdelmoro When I tried to short the ferry yard district the quarter buzzed on the tracks and the breaker LED began to blink it didn’t shut.
When I tried to short the ferry yard district the quarter buzzed on the tracks and the breaker LED began to blink it didn’t shut.
gdelmoro Randy jumper was on 4 Amps. B position. Moved to A 3.5. Quarter on Main EB1 blinks but does not reset unless I shut the System and turn back on. Ferry and Sort yard yard trips All breakers. When quarter removed breakers come back on remove ALL jumpers Main - Ferry - Yard now trip all breakers. back to checking feeders
Randy
jumper was on 4 Amps. B position. Moved to A 3.5.
Quarter on Main EB1 blinks but does not reset unless I shut the System and turn back on.
Ferry and Sort yard yard trips All breakers. When quarter removed breakers come back on
remove ALL jumpers
Main - Ferry - Yard now trip all breakers.
back to checking feeders
gdelmoro Making progress, there is a point under the layout where the Main and Sorting yard busses cross and there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus. I have now color coded the three districts busses and feeders with colored Velcro wrap. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then chck that al the main feeders are connected only to the main. I don’t think the main will be a problem since i installed that before i added the two yards. But, you never know.
I have now color coded the three districts busses and feeders with colored Velcro wrap. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then chck that al the main feeders are connected only to the main. I don’t think the main will be a problem since i installed that before i added the two yards. But, you never know.
At this point, were it my layout, I would stop checking feeder wires until I eliminated the terminal block and the three EB1s as culprits. We already talked about bypassing the terminal block to test its functionality.
Now you need to verify that each EB1 is working properly.
Start with Ferry Yard since you are convinced that all is well with that power district. Disconnect the power to the input side of the other two EB1s so that only the EB1 powering Ferry Yard is connected. Do the quarter test and watch the status light on the left side of the command station. Power should be cut to Ferry Yard and the status light on the left side of the command station should not be blinking. If that is the case, the Ferry Yard EB1 is working properly.
Next, disconnect power to the input side of the EB1 for Ferry Yard and connect power to the input side of the EB1 for Sorting Yard. Do the quarter test and watch the status light on the left side of the command station. Power should be cut to Sorting Yard and the status light on the left side of the command station should not be blinking. If that is the case, the Sorting Yard EB1 is working properly.
Next, disconnect power to the input side of the EB1 for Sorting Yard and connect power to the input side of the EB1 for the Main. Do the quarter test and watch the status light on the left side of the command station. Power should be cut to the Main and the status light on the left side of the command station should not be blinking. If that is the case, the Main EB1 is working properly.
OK, let's say that all three quarter tests worked and that the booster status light on the left side of the command station never blinked. And the terminal block has been tested and verified. Reconnect all three EB1s to the terminal block and do the quarter test on the Main. if all three power districts shut down, you now know for sure that you have either a wiring problem or a gapping problem or both.
gdelmoro When I connect all the breakers and all the districts are live placing a quarter on the Main shorts out all three breakers. Randy, jumper was on 4 Amps. B position. Moved to A 3.5. Quarter on Main EB1 blinks but does not reset unless I shut the System and turn back on. Ferry and Sort yard yard trips All breakers. When quarter removed breakers come back on. remove ALL jumpers Main - Ferry - Yard now trip all breakers. There is a point under the layout where the Main and Sorting yard busses cross and there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then check that al the main feeders are connected only to the main.
Randy, jumper was on 4 Amps. B position. Moved to A 3.5. Quarter on Main EB1 blinks but does not reset unless I shut the System and turn back on. Ferry and Sort yard yard trips All breakers. When quarter removed breakers come back on. remove ALL jumpers Main - Ferry - Yard now trip all breakers.
There is a point under the layout where the Main and Sorting yard busses cross and there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then check that al the main feeders are connected only to the main.
Let's consider the fact that feeders connected to the track in the Sorting Yard were inadvertently connected to the Main bus. The quarter test on the Main would shut down both the Main and the Sorting Yard. But, it should not shut down Ferry Yard. The fact that Ferry Yard shuts down tells me that the booster shut down the layout, not the EB1s for Main and Sorting.
You gotta watch the booster status light on the left side of the command station to see if it is blinking when a short occurs. If it is, then the booster, not the EB1s, are shutting down the layout. Or, you also have miswired Ferry Yard by crossing feeders onto the Main bus or the Sorting Yard bus.
richhotrainGary, since I can't let this go (Laugh),
Rich you need to grab your meter, hop in your car and help Gary sort this out.
richhotrainYou gotta watch the booster status light
I missed any comment from Gary on this light,
assuming there was none:
richhotrainThe quarter test on the Main would shut down both the Main and the Sorting Yard. But, it should not shut down Ferry Yard. The fact that Ferry Yard shuts down tells me that the booster shut down the layout, not the EB1s for Main and Sorting.
Imagine his track work was a single piece of flex track with 3 pairs of feeders each pari coming from 3 separate circuit breakers. One quarter takes them all out without any action by the booster.
Is this likely? We know we had essentially two CB's feeding the same track, why not three? Working underneath the layout is a recipe for confusion, Gary. You're not the only one to make a mistake.
Rich, what time will you be picking me up?
BigDaddy richhotrain Gary, since I can't let this go (Laugh), Rich you need to grab your meter, hop in your car and help Gary sort this out. richhotrain You gotta watch the booster status light I missed any comment from Gary on this light, assuming there was none: richhotrain The quarter test on the Main would shut down both the Main and the Sorting Yard. But, it should not shut down Ferry Yard. The fact that Ferry Yard shuts down tells me that the booster shut down the layout, not the EB1s for Main and Sorting. Imagine his track work was a single piece of flex track with 3 pairs of feeders each pari coming from 3 separate circuit breakers. One quarter takes them all out without any action by the booster. Is this likely? We know we had essentially two CB's feeding the same track, why not three? Working underneath the layout is a recipe for confusion, Gary. You're not the only one to make a mistake. Rich, what time will you be picking me up?
richhotrain Gary, since I can't let this go (Laugh),
richhotrain You gotta watch the booster status light
I missed any comment from Gary on this light, assuming there was none:
richhotrain The quarter test on the Main would shut down both the Main and the Sorting Yard. But, it should not shut down Ferry Yard. The fact that Ferry Yard shuts down tells me that the booster shut down the layout, not the EB1s for Main and Sorting.
Actually, what Gary has with that crossed set of feeders is the Main and the Sorting Yard powered by the Main bus, so both the Sorting Yard and the Main losing power with the short on the Main.
Here is something else that is interesting to contemplate. If the booster is doing the tripping because the short is trying to draw more than 5 amps, the booster can shut down the entire layout without any of the circuit breakers tripping. That's another reason to check the booster status light to see what is actually tripped.
richhotrain OK, good luck with the visual checking of feeders. I can't help though but to go back to the photo that you posted at the start of this thread. It would be so easy to disconnect two of the EB1s and do the quarter test on the connected power district. Then, repeat the process with the other two EB1s. That way, you will quickly find the problem or at least the source of the problem. I just think that you are doing it the hard way. Rich
Some how I missed this recommendation. I will do that test tomorrow.
richhotrain gdelmoro When I connect all the breakers and all the districts are live placing a quarter on the Main shorts out all three breakers. Randy, jumper was on 4 Amps. B position. Moved to A 3.5. Quarter on Main EB1 blinks but does not reset unless I shut the System and turn back on. Ferry and Sort yard yard trips All breakers. When quarter removed breakers come back on. remove ALL jumpers Main - Ferry - Yard now trip all breakers. There is a point under the layout where the Main and Sorting yard busses cross and there I found 2 feeders from the sorting yard connected to the main bus. I know the ferry yard is good. I need to fix the Sorting yard track and then check that al the main feeders are connected only to the main. Gary, since I can't let this go (), I isolated three separate comments which you have made over the course of this thread. Let's consider the fact that feeders connected to the track in the Sorting Yard were inadvertently connected to the Main bus. The quarter test on the Main would shut down both the Main and the Sorting Yard. But, it should not shut down Ferry Yard. The fact that Ferry Yard shuts down tells me that the booster shut down the layout, not the EB1s for Main and Sorting. You gotta watch the booster status light on the left side of the command station to see if it is blinking when a short occurs. If it is, then the booster, not the EB1s, are shutting down the layout. Or, you also have miswired Ferry Yard by crossing feeders onto the Main bus or the Sorting Yard bus. Rich
Gary, since I can't let this go (), I isolated three separate comments which you have made over the course of this thread.
Ok will do. I’ll get back tomorrow
Ok I hope this makes sense to you guys.
I'm stumped
OK, thinking about it, I am less stumped.
When the Ferry yard is the only thing connected, the booster blinks with the quarter because it detects that current to the breaker has stopped. (Edit wrong again, nothing ventured nothing learned. Thanks Rich)
With the quarter on the FY when everything is connected, current from the booster still has a place to go, the other yard and the main. You used white out on that entry, I assume none of the breakers are blinking.
Some of the rest can still be explained by a cross connection between the Main and SY. I'm struggling with why the FY doesn't remain on or simply appear unpowered with the quarter on the other 2 districts.
Henry, the first thing you need to know is nothing is ever easy with my luck
gdelmoro Ok I hope this makes sense to you guys.
My first observation is that it is the booster shutting down your layout in every instance because the booster status light is blinking in all cases except for one of the six scenarios.
Beyond that, not much makes sense.
According to the EB1 manual, "the quarter test is the fastest way to test your wiring. The EB1 should trip and shut down the power district at every place you short out the track. Once shut down the EB1 will try to restore power about once every 2 seconds. If there is still a short the EB1 will kill the power again, until the short is removed".
Status Indicator: "There is a status indicator LED near the SETUP connector. The LED will light steadily if everything is OK. A flashing LED indicates the circuit breaker for the power district has tripped. LED off usually indicates the DCC power booster is turned off".
So, if the EB1 LED is flashing, the booster status LED should remain lit, not blinking. If the booster status LED is blinking, it has detected a short that the EB1 has not detected, so I would expect that the EB1 status LED would not be blinking.
If I make a leap of faith and assume that the terminal block is not the problem and that the trip current adjustments are all defaulting to 2.5 amps on the three EB1s, then there is a wiring problem. I guess that you are going to have to get under the layout and check where all those feeders are connected on the bus wires.
If I go back to your earlier reply in which you are sure that the Ferry Yard is wired and gapped correctly, then with only the Ferry Yard power district receiving power (the other two EB1s are disconnected), the quarter test should set the EB1 LED flashing and the booster status LED should be lit, not blinking. But, the booster status LED is blinking. That ain't right.
On my layout, I have PSX circuit breakers, not EB1s. When I short the main line, the status LED lights up on the PSX to indicate a short. The other PSX units continue to provide power to their respective power districts. The booster status LED stays lit bright red on my PH-Pro command station. That is how it is all supposed to work.
Yep! back under I go.
The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found, probably at the points where both yards come close to the main line - that's where it would eb easiest to make a mistake. I'm basing that off the entry that says when all breakers are connected and a quarter is dropped on the main line, ALL breakers blink. If each section is properly isolated to be fed from the appropriate breaker, ONLY that breaker should blink when there is a short in that area.
Part of the problem is that if there is only one set of crossed feeders, it WILL matte where the quarter is dropped. If you get far enough away from the crossed feeder, its influence will become less ( a quarter sitting across the rails NOT pressed down, is not a terriby low resistence short - so don;t push down on the quarter. If you have to push down on the quarter to make something detect a short, your wiring is definitely inadequate.). So try the all breakers connected, dropping a quarter on the main. At some point it may only trip the main's breaker. As you move closer to the crossed feeder to the ferry yard, it will trip main and ferry.
ABout the best thing you can do at this point is label each and every feeder, for which section of the track it goes to. Don;t assume because it's 'about' where the third switch in the ferry yard is, it is the ferry yard. Yes, that requires a lot of back and forth under the table and back out. Perhaps you can enlist some help to do the crawling underneath, and they can tap where they are and you can yell out what label they should put on. Ignore what bus wire the feeder attached to at this step - just get the feeders labeled. After that, label each but wire. Any time there is other than an F feeder on the F bus, or an M feeder on the M bus, you have a problem.
Don't gorget to check the gaps between the sections. You need insulating gaps between each section, in both rails. If you don;t use insulated joiners, you jeed something in the gap, otherwise the track expanding or the benchwork shrinking will bring the ends of the rails into contact and causes issues like this.
Another way to verify there are cross-conencted feeders, but it won't help you find anything, is to use a meter set on continuity - prefereably one with a fast beep response. Connect one lead to the main red bus wire. Touch the other end to whicher reail is the red side. Anywhere on the main, it should beep. Anywhere else, it should not beep. If it beeps in either yard, then there is afeeder in that yard connectd to that bus line.
rrinkeruse a meter set on continuity - prefereably one with a fast beep response. Connect one lead to the main red bus wire. Touch the other end to whicher reail is the red side.
Couldn't he do the same thing topside with the main red rail and the yard red rail?
rrinker The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found, Don't forget to check the gaps between the sections. You need insulating gaps between each section, in both rails. If you don't use insulated joiners, you need something in the gap, otherwise the track expanding or the benchwork shrinking will bring the ends of the rails into contact and causes issues like this.
The power is backfeeding through crossed feeders. There have to be more than the ones found,
Don't forget to check the gaps between the sections. You need insulating gaps between each section, in both rails. If you don't use insulated joiners, you need something in the gap, otherwise the track expanding or the benchwork shrinking will bring the ends of the rails into contact and causes issues like this.
Maybe Randy can explain this better than me, but it seems that the interconnected buses are tripping not only the breaker protecting the power district where the quarter test is being conducted, but the crossed feeders are routing the short to the other two breakers as well. If that is what is happening, the good news is that the breakers are doing their job. The bad news, though, is the short is finding its way back to the booster as well, shutting down the entire layout and defeating the power district concept.
If this were my layout, I would do the extreme and disconnect all of the feeders and start all over after labeling the feeders and the buses. Actually, if it were my layout, I would elect the nuclear option and change out the buses for color coded bus wires. That's the way that I have set up my layout. The bus wires for each power district are separate and distinct colors from one another, green and yellow for the main, blue and orange for the yard, red and black for the 10-track passenger station, etc.
And, as Randy pointed out, you need to go over all of your gaps to be certain that the gaps are just that, gaps, and that each power district is electrically isolated from the other power districts.
BigDaddy rrinker use a meter set on continuity - prefereably one with a fast beep response. Connect one lead to the main red bus wire. Touch the other end to whicher reail is the red side. Couldn't he do the same thing topside with the main red rail and the yard red rail?
rrinker use a meter set on continuity - prefereably one with a fast beep response. Connect one lead to the main red bus wire. Touch the other end to whicher reail is the red side.
Yes, this can be done topside. I didn't mean to imply this needed to be done from underneath. Kind of hard to touch a probe to the rail from underneath, after all
Thanks Randy, sorry for the piecemeal questions. Does the input connection via the terminal strip create false positive, ie continuity?