richhotrainHowever, when the Insulfrog is powered on all three ends of the turnout, as in my case, both point rails are always energized, effectively defeating the benefit of power routing.
could you isolate at least one rail to take advantage of the power routing so that you have a mechanism for sensing the turnout position?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Have you considered any sort of complete signal system? Or to you just want to show turnout position?
Have you considered any sort of complete signal system? Or to you just want to show turnout position?
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain cv_acr richhotrain I mentioned that my Peco Insulfrog turnouts are powered by feeders on alll three ends of each turnout. That being the case, all of the rails are powered on each turnout. Only the plastic frog is dead. Unfortunately you're trying to do two things (Hand-thrown PECO InsulFrog turnouts and somehow detecting turnout position for signals) that are entirely incompatible with each other. Sorry, but I don't see any other way to say this. You can't do what you want here without controlling the switches with a different throw system. Yeah, I am coming to realize that. The micro switch suggestion made earlier in this revived thread is something that I need to take a look at as I move forward. Rich
cv_acr richhotrain I mentioned that my Peco Insulfrog turnouts are powered by feeders on alll three ends of each turnout. That being the case, all of the rails are powered on each turnout. Only the plastic frog is dead. Unfortunately you're trying to do two things (Hand-thrown PECO InsulFrog turnouts and somehow detecting turnout position for signals) that are entirely incompatible with each other. Sorry, but I don't see any other way to say this. You can't do what you want here without controlling the switches with a different throw system.
richhotrain I mentioned that my Peco Insulfrog turnouts are powered by feeders on alll three ends of each turnout. That being the case, all of the rails are powered on each turnout. Only the plastic frog is dead.
I mentioned that my Peco Insulfrog turnouts are powered by feeders on alll three ends of each turnout. That being the case, all of the rails are powered on each turnout. Only the plastic frog is dead.
Unfortunately you're trying to do two things (Hand-thrown PECO InsulFrog turnouts and somehow detecting turnout position for signals) that are entirely incompatible with each other.
Sorry, but I don't see any other way to say this. You can't do what you want here without controlling the switches with a different throw system.
Yeah, I am coming to realize that. The micro switch suggestion made earlier in this revived thread is something that I need to take a look at as I move forward.
Rich, there is no free lunch here, a turnout is a mechanical device first, we simply convert it into an electrical device for model train use.
Simplified interlocking signals are easy to wire up and will indicate both turnout position and block occupancy.
But in any case I think you need some sort of little switch on each turnout......
Sheldon
gregc what about the point rails?
what about the point rails?
If the Insulfrog is powered only on the stock rails at the tail end of the turnout, only the point rail touching its stock rail is powered, thus power routing. I guess that this would be useful for dead rail sidings.
However, when the Insulfrog is powered on all three ends of the turnout, as in my case, both point rails are always energized, effectively defeating the benefit of power routing.
the images suggests that only one point rail is powered, depending on position. If true, wiring it in series with a (~10k) resistor and detector would allow you to determine tunout position from which you could control a signal.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
gregc richhotrain The Insulfrog turnouts are power routing, and all three ends of every turnout are powered by feeders. what does power routing mean in this case (with insulfrogs)? that only one point rail is powered (by making contact with the stock rail)?
richhotrain The Insulfrog turnouts are power routing, and all three ends of every turnout are powered by feeders.
what does power routing mean in this case (with insulfrogs)? that only one point rail is powered (by making contact with the stock rail)?
richhotrainThe Insulfrog turnouts are power routing, and all three ends of every turnout are powered by feeders.
Hey Rich -
I'm facing a similar issue. Three-quarters of my N scale layout has Tortoise powered turnouts and full electronic control of switches and signals. Peco turnouts with springs removed. No matter how I set the fulcrum position or how thick and strong the piano wire, the Tortoises could not overcome the Peco springs.
On the Wind River peninsula, there are two industries sharing a double ended yard with four switches, plus another switch closing the balloon reversing loop. I'm currently throwing the switches manually, but I'd like to signalize and automate this area. The ultimate plan is to pull up the turnouts and remove the springs and install Tortoises. The intermediate plan is to continue manually throwing the switches and pushing a toggle to manually set the aspect of the signal heads. A little extra work requiring a little extra mental activity, but not really a big deal in the scheme of things. Capital cost: minimal.
Good luck.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ATLANTIC CENTRAL gregc latching relays could be toggled using the momentary pulse used, i assume, to toggle the dual coil switch machine on the tunout. That's the whole point, he is not using switch machines. He is using the built in spring in the PECO turnout and moving the points manually.
gregc latching relays could be toggled using the momentary pulse used, i assume, to toggle the dual coil switch machine on the tunout.
latching relays could be toggled using the momentary pulse used, i assume, to toggle the dual coil switch machine on the tunout.
That's the whole point, he is not using switch machines. He is using the built in spring in the PECO turnout and moving the points manually.
Latching relays are expensive and require more wires. The same thing is accomplished with a conventional relay and a holding circuit with push buttons.
Who cares how much power we use with the relay powered up 50% of the time, it is a model railroad, only powered up when in use?
The relays don't care, they are continuous duty. I have seen ice cube relays last multiple decades in every day industrial use, I don't think I will wear out any on my layout.....
About the only idea I could offer is to try concealing a miniature snap-action switch (AKA Microswitch) that could be activated by the throw bar of the turnout points.
https://tinyurl.com/yyc362zr
There are scores of designs of sub-miniature switches. Some have a longer actuating arm that may work better, rather than the type with a little button (as shown). You might be able to work a length of spring wire that can actuate the switch at a slight distance from the turnout. Perhaps hide the switch inside a trackside relay case or shed of some sort. **
point_switch by Edmund, on Flickr
I've torn apart lots of VCRs and CD players in my day and there always seemed to be several tiny micro switches in the works. I imagine you could find some pretty reasonable on eBay?
https://tinyurl.com/y3om3eel
Be sure the switch is a "double-throw" so you have a contact for both normal and reverse position of the points. Some switches are only single-throw.
** If you have the room you could actually mount the switch under the roadbed and have the long actuating arm up through the roadbed where the end of the turnout point throwbar would push the arm of the switch to actuate it. Make a bracket for the microswitch so you can adjust it so it will "click" right when the throwbar pushes on it.
Good Luck, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain I am never one to revive old threads, but two years later I am reviving this old thread of mine. On my new layout, I have replaced my Tortoise powered Atlas Custom Line turnouts with spring loaded Peco Insulfrogs. No more Tortoises. The Peco Insulfrogs have plastic frogs so no opportunity to power them. This raises the question of how to add signals to the Peco Insulfrogs. I am open to any and all suggestions. Rich And this has always been my concern with this approach using the PECO turnout.
richhotrain I am never one to revive old threads, but two years later I am reviving this old thread of mine. On my new layout, I have replaced my Tortoise powered Atlas Custom Line turnouts with spring loaded Peco Insulfrogs. No more Tortoises. The Peco Insulfrogs have plastic frogs so no opportunity to power them. This raises the question of how to add signals to the Peco Insulfrogs. I am open to any and all suggestions. Rich
I am never one to revive old threads, but two years later I am reviving this old thread of mine.
On my new layout, I have replaced my Tortoise powered Atlas Custom Line turnouts with spring loaded Peco Insulfrogs. No more Tortoises. The Peco Insulfrogs have plastic frogs so no opportunity to power them.
This raises the question of how to add signals to the Peco Insulfrogs. I am open to any and all suggestions.
And this has always been my concern with this approach using the PECO turnout.
I only use switch machines on turnouts that would have been remotely controlled on the prototype, primarily those controlled by CTC.
All other are manually thrown.
I use sub minature slide switches as the "ground throw" and supply the necessary contacts for powering frogs and suppling signal/power routing logic.
I mount the slide switch right in the "scenery" where a switch stand would be, and after drilling a small hole in the handle, connect it to the throw bar with a "V" shaped music wire spring, and use small screwdrivers for throwing turnouts and manual uncoupling.
But I use Atlas turnouts.......
On my new layout, I have replaced my Tortoise powered Atlas Custom Line turnouts with spring loaded Peco Insulfrogs. No more Tortoises. The Peco Insulfrogs have plastic frogs so no opportunity to power them. The Insulfrog turnouts are power routing, and all three ends of every turnout are powered by feeders.
This raises the question of how to add signals to the Peco Insulfrogs. This is a DCC-powered layout, but I also have DC power sources available.
I am open to any and all suggestions.
Thanks, Randy.
I do like the idea of using DCC power because of its simplicity. I would welcome the opportunity to ditch the DC power packs. It doesn't sound like the proposed arrangement would consume all that much DCC power.
Depending on the resistor value used with the signal LEDs, you have about 10 ma per LED, with 60 LEDs that's 600 ma of power used from the DCC system. About 1 sound loco's worth or thereabouts. To not use DCC power would require a bit of a circuit to detect the turnout position, or the use of a switch of some sort that would be contacted by the throwbar and then used like the Tortoise contacts to control the signal LEDs with power from the DC pack.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Old Fat Robert Rich: Are you using DCC control? If the answer is yes AND you are using powered frogs or power routing turnouts that are not "DCC friendly" then the solution to your answer is quite simple. Route signals typically have (after construction) three wires. One wire energizes the grenn signal, one energizes the red signal and one completes the circuit(s) by being the common. The common gets soldered (or electrically connected) to the frog, then the remaining two wires are connected to the stock rails on the point side of the turnout.
Rich: Are you using DCC control? If the answer is yes AND you are using powered frogs or power routing turnouts that are not "DCC friendly" then the solution to your answer is quite simple. Route signals typically have (after construction) three wires. One wire energizes the grenn signal, one energizes the red signal and one completes the circuit(s) by being the common. The common gets soldered (or electrically connected) to the frog, then the remaining two wires are connected to the stock rails on the point side of the turnout.
What about using a slide switch mounted between the headbocks of the ties and connected to the throw bar (I think this was in MR somewhere).
Not necessarily this one but something similar:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007QAJQ48/ref=asc_df_B007QAJQ485220582/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B007QAJQ48&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167121312710&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13557189770391590203&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003291&hvtargid=pla-309032753965
The point motros have fold-over tabs to secure them to the bottom of the tunout. The PL-13 looks like it just clips to the motor, I'm not sure there is anything to hold it in place. Plus it is activated by the extension tail of the wire from the motor that pokes up through the throwbar. You'd have to find some way to have a wire go down through the switch rod intot he PL-13 to move it, without falling out the bottom. The point motors themselves have no spring action, they rely on the springs already in the throwbar, so I supped you could install the motor AND PL--13, and just never hook up the motor, but that could get expensive.
I have a few of the Peco PL-13 SPDT toggles designed for use with their PL-10 switch machines. It's possible that they could be mounted directly beneath the turnout without the switch motor. Has anyone tried that?
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
OK, now that seems like a real possibility.
Yes, I am running DCC. My current layout uses Atlas Custom Line turnouts which are not power routing. However, my plan is to build a new layout with Peco turnouts which are power routing. I do have a few Peco Insulfrogs on my layout, and they have plastic frogs, but I could just as easily purchase Electrofrogs.
Thanks for that idea.
That should work. Don't forget the resistors. That will work with any power routing turnout, but will not work with Insulfrog. Electrofrog is better anyway.
Rich: Are you using DCC control? If the answer is yes AND you are using powered frogs or power routing turnouts that are not "DCC friendly" then the solution to your answer is quite simple. Route signals typically have (after construction) three wires. One wire energizes the grenn signal, one energizes the red signal and one completes the circuit(s) by being the common. The common gets soldered (or electrically connected) to the frog, then the remaining two wires are connected to the stock rails on the point side of the turnout. With DCC the power to the signal will always be on. Be sure to use a jumper wire to be sure you have the signals/track in the right orientation before you solder them to the rails. I use use Shinohara (not Walthers/Shinohara) code 70 turnouts and this works fine for me.
Old Fat Robert