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Walthers Shinohara Double Crossover - Juicing the Frogs

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Posted by richhotrain on Friday, February 12, 2016 5:48 AM

SouthPenn

I took it that the poster only had one engine that was giving him problems.

 

Well, my latest acquisition, the Bowser V-1000, was the last straw. Several of my short wheelbase locos, particularly the switchers, stall at slow speeds over the double crossover. The frogs on the straight through routes are perfectly placed to cause dead spots the same distance apart as the front and rear trucks on short wheelbase locos.

Rich

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Posted by SouthPenn on Thursday, February 11, 2016 7:18 PM

I took it that the poster only had one engine that was giving him problems.

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Posted by rrinker on Thursday, February 11, 2016 1:31 PM

 FAR easier and cheaper to power the frogs, even if you ended up resporting to a frog juicer. Unless you only have 2-3 locos.

 $5 relay controlled by the switch machine contacts for a reverse loop never even has time to short out, vs a $40 autoreverser that waits for the short then fixes it - why wouldn't you?

 

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Posted by BATMAN on Thursday, February 11, 2016 12:11 PM

SouthPenn

Woulodn'tt be easier to install a 'no stall' set of capacitors to the DCC controller in the switcher??

 

Just out of curiosity, what is the cost and time involved to do that? Over the years we tend to collect multiple small loco's, highrailers, critters and such. I think installing a frog juicer at a few problem areas would be easier than installing capacitors in a lot of different vehicles. But like I said before the technical side of the hobby is the area where I require the most help.

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Posted by SouthPenn on Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:11 AM

Woulodn'tt be easier to install a 'no stall' set of capacitors to the DCC controller in the switcher??

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Tuesday, February 9, 2016 1:29 PM

You could paint on conductive paint onto frogs 2 and 5 and power the frog..  But then you are back to the complex wiring diagram that I setup for two tortoises + realy + 2 DPDT (or 1 rotary switch)

 

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by richhotrain on Tuesday, February 9, 2016 7:30 AM

RR_Mel

Hi Rich
 
I designed my layout around a Walthers code 83 double crossover.  The two things I wanted the most on my layout was a double crossover and a working turntable.
 
The Walthers Shinohara Double Crossover was the first track laid on my current layout.  I tried everything to get it to work and after many frustrating hours of tedious fixing there wasn’t anything left of the double crossover but pieces.  I had so much trouble with derailments and electrical problems I ended up using two Atlas turnouts for a single crossover for many years. 
 
Still wanting a working double crossover I built my own from Atlas code 83 Custom Line turnouts and a Atlas 19° crossover and I have never looked back.  I’ve never had a derailment or an electrical problem with my homebrew.  No Juicer needed.
 
 
 
This is my “Mel homebrew” double crossover before installation.

Mel,thanks for that description and photo. I recall from your prior posts that you experienced difficulty with the Walthers Shinohara double crossover and that you eventually made your own double crossover with four turnouts and a crossing. Ultimately, I may have to do the same thing.
 
I went down to my layout and laid Atlas #6 turnouts over the double crossover. The double crossover is pretty compact at 19" in length versus 24" with the end-to-end single turnouts. The distance between the ends of the frogs on the straight through route is only 2.5" on the double crossover, but 6.375" on the pair of single turnouts. I like that greater distance because smaller wheelbase locos cannot stall due to dead spots.  
 
For example, my VO-1000 switcher measures only 2.5" from trailing axle on the front truck to lead axle on the rear truck. My RS1 switchers are only 3.0", and you need 3.75" to clear the dead spots, so my RS1 switchers stall as well.
 
Among my passenger diesels, only the E-units clear at 4.0", while the PA, F3, and F7 locos will stall due to shorter wheelbases. No problem with the all wheel pickup steamers. I haven't measured ny various Geeps and SD diesels.
 
Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 9:38 PM

MisterBeasley
  
richhotrain
Right now, I use tabs #1 and #8 on the Tortoise for power drawn from a DC power pack and tabs #5,6,7 to power signals for the DCO. Can you suggest the wiring to power the frog?

The frog wire goes to pin 4.  The track bus wires go to pins 2 & 3.  Since you have a 50/50 chance of getting the right track bus wires to the right pins, you will be wrong 80% of the time by Murphy's Law, so don't solder anything until you've tested it. 

Success. Got power to the frogs, via the Tortoises. Oh yeah.  

And I did it on the 20% side of Murphy's law.  Thank you, Mr. B. And DG. And everyone else who replied.

Rich

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Posted by MisterBeasley on Monday, February 8, 2016 6:38 PM

richhotrain
Right now, I use tabs #1 and #8 on the Tortoise for power drawn from a DC power pack and tabs #5,6,7 to power signals for the DCO. Can you suggest the wiring to power the frog?

The frog wire goes to pin 4.  The track bus wires go to pins 2 & 3.  Since you have a 50/50 chance of getting the right track bus wires to the right pins, you will be wrong 80% of the time by Murphy's Law, so don't solder anything until you've tested it.

It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse. 

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 5:25 PM

DigitalGriffin
 
 
richhotrain

For what it's worth, I use Tortoises to throw the point rails.  I am using four Tortoises on this double crossover, all wired together and controlled by a single DPDT toggle switch.

Rich

 

Then this is a mundane exercise.  Treat it as 4 track switches and use each tortoise to change the polarity of the frog closest to the switch/tortoise.  EASY-PZ

Why spend $$$$  on a juicer, when you have all the functionality you need already?

 

Don, that was actually intended to be my initial question.  I was initially inquiring about the use of Frog Juicers because I thought that was my best option. But, I hadn't even thought about using Tortoises for this purpose until you mentioned it in an earlier reply.

Right now, I use tabs #1 and #8 on the Tortoise for power drawn from a DC power pack and tabs #5,6,7 to power signals for the DCO. Can you suggest the wiring to power the frog?

Rich

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, February 8, 2016 5:09 PM

richhotrain

For what it's worth, I use Tortoises to throw the point rails.  I am using four Tortoises on this double crossover, all wired together and controlled by a single DPDT toggle switch.

Rich

 

 

Then this is a mundane exercise.  Treat it as 4 track switches and use each tortoise to change the polarity of the frog closest to the switch/tortoise.  EASY-PZ

Why spend $$$$  on a juicer, when you have all the functionality you need already?

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 4:59 PM

For what it's worth, I use Tortoises to throw the point rails.  I am using four Tortoises on this double crossover, all wired together and controlled by a single DPDT toggle switch.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 4:57 PM

DigitalGriffin

Insulated is different from Isolated.  Isolated can still conduct.  I said insulated.  Insulated can not conduct.

LOL

Don, I have been using the term isolated since the frogs are all fully gapped. When you used the term insulated, I went along with you thinking that the terms isolated and insulated were being used interchangeably. 

So, now back to my Walthers Shinohara DCC Friendly Code 83 double crossover. Each frog is fully gapped, so isolated.  But the frogs are metal so they can be powered. So, I can use Frog Juicers to match the polarities of the adjoining rails. Correct?

When you use the term insulated, wouldn't that be the same as a plastic frog?

Rich

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, February 8, 2016 4:34 PM

Insulated is different from Isolated.  Isolated can still conduct.  I said insulated.  Insulated can not conduct.

So all my extra wiring for those two Insulated frogs wouldn't have made much since.


So you have a choice....

  • Throw all 4 at once with 1 turtle (That's a very complex linkage)  I would use a counter sprung load on all four switch points and a series of tensioned pull wires.
  • Use 1 DPDT and pair the top two with Turtle A and bottom 2 switches to turtle B (moderately complex linkage)
  • Use 2 DPDT and only 1 route is valid, A->A, A->B, B->A, B->B but NOT A->B and B->A (All points thrown)  The advantage is the linkage is simpler.  tortoise A controls the left points.  tortoise B controls the right points.  You could also rig this up with a multi pole rotary selector similar to below.

 

So what do you prefer?

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 4:27 PM

DigitalGriffin

The frogs circled in yellow sure look like they are insulated frogs to me...

Those are frogs 2 and 5 in my diagram.

 

Don, yes, all of the frogs are insulated. I raised the issue because I thought you were saying that it is pointless to power an insulated frog. That is why I said that I was confused by your comment.  I still am.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 4:24 PM

rrinker

I believe the confusing is resulting because of confusing the old non-DCC friendly version with the current DCC friendly version. If you look on Wiring for DCC, it shows the electrical paths for the old non-DCC friendly one, and in fact those middle frogs (2 and 5 on that one picture) are fully live and need power routing to them. But if you look at the OP's photo of his actual crossover, you can see where things are insulated with plastic inserts which do not appear in the old version seen on Wiring for DCC. Batman's post further backs this up - likely the individual sections of rail that go diagonally are all interconnected with jumpers under the plastic bits. You'd have to remove the crossover from the layout to test accurately, but a continuity tester or multimeter on ohms would quickly conform the way it's all wired together.

As I say, the six frogs are all metal, and they are fully isolated. Instead of using a continuity tester, I used a 12 volt incandescent bulb with two attached wires to identify all of the powered rail segments. The various rail segments are connected in the plastic molding beneath the rails. Also, the DCC Friendly Code 83 version is not power routing.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 4:06 PM

BATMAN

 They are on two different tracks but on the same end of the crossover, if that makes sense. Why only two need FJs, I don't know. Parts of the electrical side of the hobby are my weakest in the knowledge end of things. I wonder if I were to turn the crossover around if that would mean I would need FJs on that end.Confused

 

That is probably because of the wheelbase lengths of the trucks. Just powering the frogs on one side is enough as long as all the trucks are powered.

Rich

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, February 8, 2016 3:50 PM

The frogs circled in yellow sure look like they are insulated frogs to me...

Those are frogs 2 and 5 in my diagram.

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Posted by rrinker on Monday, February 8, 2016 3:48 PM

 I believe the confusing is resulting becauseof confusing the old non-DCC friendly version with the current DCC friendly version. If you look on Wiring for DCC, it shows the electrical paths for the old non-DCC friendly one, and in fact those middle frogs (2 and 5 on that one picture) are fully live and need power routing to them. But if you look at the OP's photo of his actual crossover, you can see where things are insulated with plastic inserts which do not appear in the old version seen on Wiring for DCC. Batman's post further backs this up - likely the individual sections of rail that go diagonally are all interconnected with jumpers under the plastic bits. You'd have to remove the crossover from the layout to test accurately, but a continuity tester or multimeter on ohms would quickly conform the way it's all wired together.

Despite all the potential paths, there's only 2 conditions that are valid, which is why you can rig up just 1 Tortoise to run all 4 sets of points - if either route is set to cross over, then neither route can allow a train to go straight through, because one side or the other would be going through open points. So either both are set to go straight, or both are set to cross, no other option is physically possible.

                      --Randy

 


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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, February 8, 2016 3:37 PM

 They are on two different tracks but on the same end of the crossover, if that makes sense. Why only two need FJs, I don't know. Parts of the electrical side of the hobby are my weakest in the knowledge end of things. I wonder if I were to turn the crossover around if that would mean I would need FJs on that end.Confused

Brent

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 2:50 PM

BATMAN

Rich, I only had to juice two of the four frogs for my BS 4-4-0. 

Brent, which two frogs did you juice?
 
Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 2:48 PM

I am a bit confused with Digital Griffin's replies.

All of the frogs are isolated, but they are all metal. So, they could all be powered.

Could you somehow use the Tortoises instead of Frog Juicers to power the frogs.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 2:44 PM

I got an email back from Duncan, and he confirmed what Mr. B. had already said, and that is that one Frog Juicer can power two frogs with the same polarity.

Rich

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, February 8, 2016 12:51 PM

From what I can tell, frogs 2 and 5 (see diagram) are insulated.  So you would not need the relay because putting juice to an insulated frog is worthless.  Big Smile

In the above diagram, only 1 route was valid at a time.  If you threw both routes, the frogs at 2 and 5 would be in conflict polarity wide.  AS they are insulated, the polarity doesn't matter.  That's why you can throw both at the same time.

Other then that the wiring should be the same.  You can obviously ignore wires  5, 6, 7 on both tortoises as well as they are only used to help determine the polarity of frogs 2 and 5.

You can even get away with using 1 DPDT on two tortoises.  But the linkages and wiring is different.  Instead of tortoise A controlling the left side switches, and B the right (as above), tortoise A would control the top side, tortoise B the bottom.  You would connect tortoise A's outputs to frog 1 and 4.  Tortoise B's outputs would change polarity on frogs #3 and #6 .  

The linkage of this later arrangement is more complicated because both throw bars are not lined up parallel to the tortoise.  This requires a perpendicular linkage which gets "complex"  One side of the DPDT would read "Clear/Closed", the other side would read "Thrown".  



 [edit]: finished.

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 11:56 AM

DigitalGriffin

Don, when I refer back to the thread for which you provided a link, you mention that this solution will not work with the Walthers double crossover. I assume that you are referring to the Walthers Shinohara DCC Friendly Code 83 Double Crossover.

Rich

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Posted by richhotrain on Monday, February 8, 2016 11:54 AM

All of the frogs on the Walthers Shinohara DCC Friendly Code 83 Double Crossover are isolated dead metal frogs.  But the crossover routes do not cause stalls because of the distance apart of the crossover frogs. At least with the loco roster that I have, none of the wheelbases results in both the front and rear trucks crossing dead sections at the same moment. So, the problem is limited to the straight through routes.

Rich

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Posted by DigitalGriffin on Monday, February 8, 2016 11:20 AM

Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Monday, February 8, 2016 10:49 AM

richhotrain
All good points, Randy. First, the polarities on the upper and lower tracks match, so no problem there. Second, as you say, there are no conflicts on the crossover because conflicts would not be possible without a collision.

There are three possible routings over this switch...

1. Northbound to Track 1 which includes Southbound from track 2.

2. Northbound into track 2; Red signals displayed against movements from track 1.

3) Southbound from track 1; Red signals displayed against Northbound trains and agains movements from track 2.

On Layout of LION Turnouts and Signals arte controlled by separate levers. Green signals cannot be displayed for the routes not alighed.

Tracks 1 and 2 both have red signals displayed unless the track lever is aligned to that track. If said lever is so aligned, then the interlock will allow the signal to be cleared but ONLY IF the Southbound Dyckmann Street platform is open.

No northbound train can leave Dyckmann Street unless lever 3 is reversed. If levers 1 and 2 are normal, and no train is ocupying track 1, then lever three can be moved, Green over Green is the display and the train will move to track 1.

If Lever 1 is reversed (lever 2 is normal because of a mechanical interlock between levers 1 and 2) AND track 2 is not occupied, then lever 3 can be reversed and the train at Dyckmann Street would receive an Amber over Amber indication permitting the train to proceed to track two.

IF LEVER 3 *is* reversed, then the homeball at Botanic Gardens displays red over red, and a train may not continue to Dyckmann Street until it is cleared. The block system would of its own display a red signal if Dyckmann is occupied, but once the train leaves that signal could be lost, but the reversed position of the lever prevents that train from proceeding. Were it to proceed, it would encounter a clear signal a Dyckman Street and would rear-end a train sitting in the station. So there is that extra interlock built into the system. The Dyckmann Signal must be set to RED before Botanic Garden can display a Green.

In any event, The tracks NEVER assum an "X" condition because of the mechanical interlock between levers 1 and 2. Frogs (this was about frogs, yess?) need to respond to three different plant alignments. Of course on route of LION, the entire switch is dead. Leaver 1 selects between track 1 (Normal) or track 2 (reversed) The selected track receives its power from the Northbound track. A rectifyer across a station gap will stop the train in the station, and will only permit southbound movements when Lever 2 is set to the track that will be moved, AND the signal lever is also cleared. The platform track will receive its power from the Southbound track. No signal, no go.

ROAR

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Posted by BATMAN on Monday, February 8, 2016 10:47 AM

Rich, I only had to juice two of the four frogs for my BS 4-4-0. I got a real good deal on buying ten FJ.s and have used six of them. I have spares in case I get something like a highrailer that causes me more problems. Eventually I will power the frogs with the TO motors when I get that far, but for now Caboose ground throws and FJs give me a quick easy fix to rid myself of mainline frustrations.

 

Brent

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https://www.youtube.com/user/BATTRAIN1/videos 

You can never ever out-train poor nutrition.

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