Dave,
I gotta agree with you. I think it pays to get some wiring under your belt. Follow a method that works for you. Then figure out if the next projrect could be done in a way that both works and is efficient. Because ultimately, once things are wired right, they tend to stay. If you have trouble, if you have the skills to isolate it to a particualr circuit, then that's half the battle. Some folks may want a folder or binder full of documentation, full labels on everything, and all kinds of fancy terminal doohickey's. Some may just need a few lables and a system in mind, like I do. But you can't just start hooking up wires willy-nilly. You still have to put some thought into things regardless of the system.
And there are other considerations, as I mentioned. Just a module with a single main? Then not much need for a terminal strip, so long as the wires are held reliably and where they don't snag. If the end connectors match per the standard of your modular, you're good.
If you have a large club layout, with a committee of 12 to do and maintain the wiring, then you all get on the same page with documentation and the full boat as far as making it clear to anyone who'll work on it in the future where things hook up.
I actually am quite impressed by the wiring skills on display. My only concern would be that someone just throws in the towel on having a layout because they hate wiring and have no plans to get certified as a journeyman electrician. That sort of skill is great to have at your disposal, but it should not be thought of as a barrier or requirement. Instead, you just need to find something that works with your comfort and skill level.
Ultimately, the most important skill of all in model railroading electrical work is being able to trouble-shoot. because you not only have the basic wiring, but often a control circuit, a signals circuit, sometimes a turnout motor circuit. Then you have track, with its gaps and feeder. Then you have motive power and rolling stock. Add all that up and it's something that can be a real challenge if you can't break things down to systematically find the fault when something goes wrong.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I think the bottom line on this thread is that there are lots of great ways to wire your layout. Jim's method and devices are certainly one of them.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
RR_MelAfter 78 years the “Little Grey Cells” are slower to engage so I’m in favor of keeping some sort of documentation. Labels are a great help because I don’t have to rely on the Little Grey Cells as much and rarely need the documentation, but it’s there if I need it.
Mel,
I may regret some lack of labeling when I get older, but I hope not...if I get that way, there'll be bigger things to worry about. But I don't do without them. I've got a label machine and not afraid to use it.
But I think I'll be OK on the memory thing. Fortunately, my inheritance in terms of old age seems to indicate I'll just get old and fall apart and won't end up relatively health, but with a blank sheet of paper, so to speak. Maybe even a little more confidence than usual, because I sat through and transcribed a semester long interdisciplinary faculty-grad student sysmposium for my advisor that brought together experts from our campus and around the world. Most interesting was the guy who worked with the guy that had something happen to him and he quit making new memories. He remembered everything before some date in the 1950s, but basically nothing after. He was a pretty functional guy, considering. And there were some weird signs that at some level some forms of memory were still functioning once you started running tests on him, but there was a very clear border where things just dropped out and no doubt he was profoundly impaired despite an otherwise healthly appearnce and demeanor.
But there are all kinds of memory and memory functions and their loss or use depends very much on the person. For some things, there are easy workarounds. Alzheimer's etc not so fortunate. Then there's the range called "normal" that is pretty darn broad. But since I use wire size, shape, and color, along with different wire nuts as part if my wiring ID system fortunately this kind of visual and muscle memory is actually pretty robust even when other things are going downhill. So far so good. I never really had any problems with it, although I still come across things from thhe worst of that period I did and I think "Did I do that?" but it's fine because it's just that I'm not remembering the actual install but I did remember the correct chops to do it.
Then I had some health issues, got treated with some drugs that were about the only choice at the time to deal with the problems I was having (a weird spinal thing that is fortunately rare, unless it happens to be you) . problem is they fell in a class called anticholinergic drugs. The reaction to them can range from no problem at all to some pretty dificient memory functions. Apparently this has gotten a lot more attention in recent years as they look into Alzheimer's more and more. Some cases diagnosed as that may be this anticholinergic reaction. The fact is that as you get older you get the more sensitive to these effects if you're unlucky enough to be sensitive to using them. Thing is it's not just the sort of drugs that make you goofy, like you might think, although there are some of those involved. Even things like what's in over the counter meds for things you'd never think would do that, like some anti-acids and other OTC meds (Zantac I think is one, Benadryl is another). So if you do run into memory issues as you enjoy your retirement under the layout, keep "anticholinergic" in mind and Google up a list of 'em. Thing is, the effects can sometimes be permanent, sometimes temporary. In my case I was really starting to worry about that with a dissertation to write and literally hundreds of sources ARGH Thank goodness my advisor is a very patient person and I've had a lot of support from the wife and people in general. It's slowly gotten better, but has taken literally years after getting off them and swicthed to something else.
So, yeah, I'm not advocating doing without labels just to be different. They have their place. But if you use consistent wiring practices and use specific stuff to do different things, it's possible to keep a whole lot straight and obvious so you can just look at wiring and figure it out.
And JimInMichgan is right...no one should be forced to use wire nuts
However, it might surprise people after reading this thread so far but I did a survey (unscientific b/c of small sample size N=28) on another forum that allows such things and found that more than 50% of the respondents used wire nuts successfully and a few percentage more planned to use them, apparently not scared off by all the pictures of neat panels all neatly labeled. This majority was a relatively silent majority, though, as most of those who actually commented seem to have voted the "No, they are the work of the devil!" category. So, those who've been using wire nuts, read this far and were wearily making plans to totally rewire their layout with barrier strips, etc, relax, there's a lot more people out here using them. You are not alone.
Jim:
I'll agree that the Wago connectors look better than suitcase connectors. They would seem to be less prone to cutting into the wire and thereby weakening it. I have always been leary of that problem.
I had also forgotten that they come in different configurations so I can see the units with fewer ports perhaps being more useful on longer bus runs.
I have changed my opinion of them now that I have learned more.
Thanks
Its like this, it is what works for " ME ". I have a relatively small layout, it's all thats needed. You guys want to show off your wiring masterpeices, then by all means, go start a thread and do so. I posted this thread to show those who use suitcase connectors an easier ( and in my opinion, better ) alterative. Unless I am mistaken, suitcase connectors are geared for certain wire gauges ( 22-18, 18-16, ect ), but they do not make one that allows you to take a 20 ga feeder and connect it to a 16ga wire. If you do try to use the smaller connector, then the blade will have to cut into the 16ga wire, use the larger connector and your not cutting the small ga insulation properly. These WAGO lever nuts allows you to take any gauge wire from 28ga up to 12 ga and make a reliable connection.
As for my wires hanging in a rats nest, that was for illustration purposes. Currently, they are folded back up by the benchwork ( solid wire feeders hold thier shape well ). Once I get it to where I want, it's easy to use some double sided tape to stick the WAGO's up to the bottom of the benchwork and shortening the leads as needed.
For those who think the wire nut is the way to go, then I'm happy for you. But I do not agree with you.
chutton01From the OP: "Whats nice about these is you do not cut into your bus wire sheathing like you do with the suitcase type connectors" I don't get this - yeah, you do indeed cut into the bus wire sheathing...and the bus wire itself to insert the wire lever nut.
I presume that he means that he is not cutting into the bus wire sheathing mid-run. On the other hand, you do have to cut the bus wire and strip the cut end before insertion into the connector.
rrinker If you haven't used all the connections, sure, you can always stick a probe in an empty connection. But there appear to be no openings for a probe tip elsewhere, so if all the spots are used up, you have to disconnect something to make a test.
This is not true, these clips come with a built in test port - the little square opening "above" the levers allows multimeter probe access. It does not allow you to test each connection separately however, like a terminal bar does.This video explains how the connectors work in some detail (I usually look for such videos when I hear about new items, as I did in this thread), and show usage of the test port. It also shows that these wire lever nuts seem to be rather fancy derivatives of "Fahnestock clips" (as they call them in MicroMark) ganged together.From the OP:"Whats nice about these is you do not cut into your bus wire sheathing like you do with the suitcase type connectors"I don't get this - yeah, you do indeed cut into the bus wire sheathing...and the bus wire itself to insert the wire lever nut. Would you say you don't cut into your bus wire if you pigtailed four connections off of it with a traditional wire nut?
Geared Steam 7j43k Another problem with these and suitcase connectors is that you can't put a meter on the connection. Look at the OP's third picture, you can easily use a voltmeter to check voltage. Men are funny, you will always get a strong opinion on wiring, the best tools, mufflers, lawn mowers, V-8's and beer. Cheers
7j43k Another problem with these and suitcase connectors is that you can't put a meter on the connection.
Look at the OP's third picture, you can easily use a voltmeter to check voltage.
Men are funny, you will always get a strong opinion on wiring, the best tools, mufflers, lawn mowers, V-8's and beer.
Cheers
Tools - having sold MATCO tools years ago, I can tell you that there are lots of good tools out there, but most all the of the good ones come from the same few factories regardless of the name stamped on them.
Mufflers - Having built and driven high performance cars most of my life, I prefer nice quiet mufflers that do not attract the attention of law inforcement.
Lawn Mowers - GRAVELY with out question is the best. Why are some tractors green? So they can hide in the grass while the red tractors do all the work.
V-8's - Chevy's were best back in the day, but today my FORDS have proven much better.
Beer - no use for that here, or any other mind altering chemicals in any form.
Wiring - again, these little connectors, and others like them, have there place, but not on my layout.
Sheldon
You can always back probe them which is what we do on automotive connectors.
Jim
7j43k because life is good. And I think good gin is better than good beer. Unless it's incredibly hot. And even then....
Agreed, water wasted on beer could have been used make more gin (or rum).
Sorry Ed, I mean't to "reply to all" , I wasnt necessarily singling out your post.
To all, Wegos are simply another method to connect wires, in my experiences, hobby or professional, they have never failed me. Soldering and terminal strips are a proven, age old method. The OP is simply showing a different method to those that may be unfamiliar, no one is questioning the other methods.
If one has concerns about checking voltage, you can simply lift the lever and disconnect the Wego, once you're done, you can reuse it.
Yes I have worked with high and low voltage for 31 + years, its like a gun, you never take it for granted.
But what do I know, I'm just a hick with a soldering gun and a screwdriver?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
What I can see from the third picture is that I can stick a probe up the little holes. I don't see that, if I do that, I will be checking the voltage on the wire that is inserted in the other hole.
I PROBABLY am, but I don't KNOW that.
If I put a probe on a barrier strip, I'll bet my life it's checking the voltage of a properly (we all did that, right?) connected wire. That will likely happen on Wednesday, at 240 Volts. When I go to work.
I am perhaps a little conservative about electrical work. But I'm still alive.
I have no opinions, at this time, on mufflers or lawn mowers. But I'm pretty sure I could develop them if requested. V-8's are good, because life is good. And I think good gin is better than good beer. Unless it's incredibly hot. And even then....
Ed
Being an army type, I have limited exposure to the aircraft industry that gave us high reliability soldering and other nifty safety and efficiency measures. I recall seeing aircraft in photos that are getting third line servicing, essentially a gut and rebuild [think using solvent on old DC-9 aircrafts control cables to rid the cables of nicotine in times of old]. The wires were always bundled, but I didn't linger, or look pointedly, to see if there were labels attached to the bundles. Surely they were there...someplace(s)...? Many bundles of wires...wires upon wires...and then more wires.
I could see a complicated layout with multiple boosters or power packs, or blocks, needing scads of wires and the appropriate groupings and labels. I think the alternative vision/assumption (perhaps a bit naively) was for DCC. At least that was the appeal for me. I think I would have left the hobby if I had to perform the feats of calculus that many of you have demonstrated.
Anyhoo, it would be interesting if we had a matrix that listed all the various types of connectors, as well as their historical qualities, advantages, disadvantages, and problems.
tomikawaTT Okay, I guess, if you don't want or need the ability to positively identify a wire and have that kind of money to use. My screw, washer and nut stud terminals on home-fabricated terminal blocks cost about two cents per connection, They also create a much neater and more professional look. Part of that is my USAF flight line background speaking. Flying (through the air) junctions and combat aircraft electricals don't mix. Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with bulletproof electricals)
Okay, I guess, if you don't want or need the ability to positively identify a wire and have that kind of money to use. My screw, washer and nut stud terminals on home-fabricated terminal blocks cost about two cents per connection, They also create a much neater and more professional look.
Part of that is my USAF flight line background speaking. Flying (through the air) junctions and combat aircraft electricals don't mix.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with bulletproof electricals)
Since I retired I no longer issue orders. I now offer advise. The nice thing about advise is you can follow it or disregard it. I am not the slightest bit offended if you do the latter.
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
If you haven't used all the connections, sure, you can always stick a probe in an empty connection. But there appear to be no openings for a probe tip elsewhere, so if all the spots are used up, you have to disconnect something to make a test.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
7j43kAnother problem with these and suitcase connectors is that you can't put a meter on the connection.
ATLANTIC CENTRALMy point, and if I may speak for Chuck as well, is that overall there are good reasons to approach electrical wiring from a more disciplined approach - trouble shooting - and possible future changes - being two very good ones, not to mention durablity and long term reliability. Walk into any factory in the world,
Sheldon,
I really wouldn't argue against that as a good general plan. Certainly it builds confidence for people who aren't comfortable with wiring to learn the ropes and make it easy to troubleshoot. I certainly try to avoid the rat's nest look, but in some places it kinda depend on how big a rat you're talking about...
I try to be neat, but kind of gave up on the terminal strip and labeling thing pretty quick. Besides my layout not being a factory...Why?
1. It's a lot of work keeping things organized. I'm not saying it's NOT a good investment, just one you have to feel is important enough to devote the extra time it takes to be neat.
2. I have a alternate system that depends on how the wire is configured and the gauge it is, use of systematic practices, and keeping wire so it's visible if you do have to trouble shoot.
3. Documentation is good, but also a lot of work. I can run down most issues visuualy in the time it takes to get the book out.
4. Being neat and organized has real benefits if multiple people work on a system. Here it's just me. If I run into something I don't immediate recognize, if I think about how I would have done what, it usually comes to me. I will admit that age is starting to make that harder, but the wiring is pretty darn good at this point.
5. I troubleshoot visually, maybe even learn mostly visually, so can sort through a group of wires and wire nuts quickly. I typically know pretty much where to look to start in case a problem occurs, but would have to really think about something with things all lined up neatly and labeled. To me, that says "learn the system" before you do anything. With my method, I guess the focus is "learn the fault."
ATLANTIC CENTRAL"Temporary" is in my view a last resort when necessary, and waste of time and resources other wise - planning minimizes changes and temporary - at least in my world.
I used to be a lot more like that. On the other hand, I built a two-story shop just inside my head that, except for a couple of calculations I jotted down, turned out pretty darn good as I built it in 3D. I had a rough track plan to start with, but found it easier to plan once I had things at least roughly arranged in the space. With more recent projects, I tend to be very specific about not being too specific, because I can work better in 3D in terms of how things come out. Usually I do plan most of the major elements, but exact location can easily be rearranged. This si also the way my wiring has gone and it works for me. I suspect this is one area where one's comfort level and personal preferences can result in pretty much the same outcomeds, but take very different paths to get there.
zstripe Just no way you can avoid a little ''rat's nest'' wiring on a DC control panel with block control. Using ribbon wire is a great way to keep wires neat.....but there is just no way to do that with DPDT toggles all over the panel. That is one advantage to DCC, that I will agree with. Maybe one day I will take a closer pic' of inside and it will show everything is labled, in & out. Take Care! Frank
Just no way you can avoid a little ''rat's nest'' wiring on a DC control panel with block control. Using ribbon wire is a great way to keep wires neat.....but there is just no way to do that with DPDT toggles all over the panel. That is one advantage to DCC, that I will agree with.
Maybe one day I will take a closer pic' of inside and it will show everything is labled, in & out.
Take Care!
Frank
Having had a straight DC cab-control layout in my youth, yeah, wireless DCC makes for a LOT simpler wiring. My main power bus runs in cable staples under the main line. For yards, sidings, and switch ladders I run crosswise buses off the main bus and attach to that.I'm glad I had one DCC layout for practice, my yard ladders need to be neater. One rule I made is that EVERY piece of rail had to be soldered to a wire connected to a feeder. I soldered my flextrack into six foot sections and each section had a feeder. Each turnout also had SIX feeders; stock rails, closure rails, and yes, points. I found 22 gage super flexible wire and put a feeder on every turnout point. ("DCC friendly" turnouts.)It was a lot of work, but you know what? I never had a single train stall.
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Back view of my control panel, all the switches are labeled with a simple numbering system to match my schematic drawing. "Bxx" for block, "Txx" for turnouts and "LEDxx" for the LEDs.
RR_Mel I can see the the wire lever type for repairs and automotive use, my preference for my control panel is the brass bus bar type and the Euro screw type. I recently found a good source for terminals, LED-Switch.com They have good pricing on these terminals, the 12 position brass bus bar above is $1.50. The 6 amp 12 position Euro above is $1.10. The brass bus bars workout very good for multiple wires. I have all my 8½ volt rural structure lighting going to a pair of brass bus bars (40 pairs), also all of my 1.4 volt vehicle lights go to a pair of them too (70 pairs). Mel
-Bob
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Thank you.
The boards are hinged at the top and swing up out of sight under the layout.
My around the room layout is constructed in 8 foot sections and each section has one of those boards.
Dave:
That's inspiring! That's what I hope to achieve will achieve when I finally get around to building my layout.
Right now my biggest wiring challenge is trying to keep all the decoder wires in some sort of order. I'm getting better but i'm still 'not there' yet.
I've never been a fan of the rat's nest style of wiring. I use barrier strips on swing down boards and I label everything at both ends.
My decision to use manually controlled turnouts and DCC continues to justify itself. Cable staples make an adequate wiring trough for the long runs.
I also use the European Style barrier strips of twelve. I cut them down into two's to blocks for the feeder wires from tracks on my DC layout. Very easy to use and test when installed. Will accept a 12ga. wire.
I have seen these before and I thought they were interesting, but I have to agree with the others who question their ease of organization. I don't see any mounting tabs. Is there a way to mount them neatly in a row on a board?
I also question the set up where you have multiple leads coming from one location. I can see that working for accessory power but if those are your main buses how long does that make the track feeders?
Also the fact that house builders are using them isn't really a strong recommendation IMHO. Those guys choose the cheapest and fastest method, not necessarily the best. Remember when the housing industry was all perked up over aluminum wiring? I had that crap in a previous house and I had more than one outlet explode as a result of wire fatigue.
Sorry, I'm not trying to offend, but I'm not convinced they are an improvement over other methods.