High fives and beers on me at Elliot's Trackside Diner.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Congrats to Soo Line Fan. Jim called it first.
Rich
Alton Junction
Problem solved.
Followed several good ideas.
Found 1.5 dcv across the LED that works and 7.5dcv acroos the BAD LED
Hooked a jumper across Bad LED and Tortoise works.
Thanks for all your good advise
Harold
gregc hwolf3. All wiring appears to be good . This was a working machine since it use to work, either something failed, or as rich said, there's a broken/loose connection richhotrainBut I simply connect the legs of the LEDs to the center terminals of the DPDT. That works just fine. So in your case, if the Tortoise fails or there is a connection problem to the Tortosie, the LED still indicates no problem.
hwolf3. All wiring appears to be good . This was a working machine
since it use to work, either something failed, or as rich said, there's a broken/loose connection
richhotrainBut I simply connect the legs of the LEDs to the center terminals of the DPDT. That works just fine.
So in your case, if the Tortoise fails or there is a connection problem to the Tortosie, the LED still indicates no problem.
True, but I have never had a Tortoise fail.
And, if I did, I don't need an LED to tell me that the Tortoise isn't working, I will know it.
If the LED is unlit and the Tortoise is OK, it could indicates no power, or it could be that the LED failed and the Tortoise is OK.
your LED may or may not indicate a problem
simply putting an LED in the path indicates
pretty neat!
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
zstripe Well in His case,the way it is wired,if the LED is open,(burnt out) it interrupts the circuit,so it is not complete and the switch motor does not get any power, like a blown fuse.
Well in His case,the way it is wired,if the LED is open,(burnt out) it interrupts the circuit,so it is not complete and the switch motor does not get any power, like a blown fuse.
I think that conclusion has already been made, but that is why I don't prefer that circuitry method.
If, indeed, the Red LED is burned out, now he has no power to the Tortoise.
If you put the LED parallel to the Tortoise, it will always work even if the Tortoise fails, but you do need to have a resistor there,
LEDs in series with the Tortoise, the Tortoise limits current to about 15ma. Plus you cna use a 12V power supply and the Tortoise will see just under 10V and run quieter.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Cheers,
Frank
That was probably me, Frank, since I did once have one side of a bi-polar LED burn out, and the power to the Tortoise was not interrupted as a result.
This is just another way of doing it, nothing more. Didn't you at one time ask,if one side of a two color Bi-polar LED,can burn out and only have one color working? Could have been someone else..
zstripe richhotrain Randy, I'm not sure who you were addressing your comments to but I, for one, don't consider it a "bad circuit design". I just don't consider it necessary. Rich I don't understand why not,,what the red LED,tells you that the turnout is set for the diverging route and the green LED,for the straight route,on his control panel. Cheers, Frank
richhotrain Randy, I'm not sure who you were addressing your comments to but I, for one, don't consider it a "bad circuit design". I just don't consider it necessary. Rich
Randy, I'm not sure who you were addressing your comments to but I, for one, don't consider it a "bad circuit design". I just don't consider it necessary.
I don't understand why not,,what the red LED,tells you that the turnout is set for the diverging route and the green LED,for the straight route,on his control panel.
I use DPDTs on a control panel to power my Tortoises, and I also have bi-polar LEDs on the control panel to indicate turnout direction. But I simply connect the legs of the LEDs to the center terminals of the DPDT. That works just fine. No problems like what seem to be going on here.
He probably,went back to working,on His Ski-Lift..
floridaflyer If the system was working and suddenly quit, I find it hard to believe it is miss wired.
If the system was working and suddenly quit, I find it hard to believe it is miss wired.
Maybe not miswired, but loose wire or wires touching where there shouldn't.
I cannot recall if the OP mentioned anything about messing with the wiring, but had any maintenance work be done recently where the wiring was in some way affected?
Of course, since the Red LED is being questioned, the OP could swap it out for a known good one or test in with a low voltage battery or with a resistor attached to a 9 volt battery.
Speaking of the OP, we haven't heard from him since late last night.
If the system was working and suddenly quit, I find it hard to believe it is miss wired. I would bridge the gap between the leads of the non working LED and see if the Tortoise works. If it does, it's the LED, if not then a search of the entire circuit will be required. I agree with Randy, the tortoise power draw is well within the limits of the LED and the life of the LED is quite long. I did however have one of my 36 bi-color LEDS go bad after about six years. Can't remember if the Tortoise quite or not.
I wouldn't consider it a bad circuit design because power is cut off when the LED fails - once known to be working, LED lifespans are measures in 10's of years, assuming you don't do something silly and feed them without current limiting, or purposely overdrive them to make them super bright, or twist the leads so much that it breaks the fine bonding wire inside, or subject them to excessive voltage in the reverse direction. In this case it provides a pretty positive indication that something is wrong - since it works one way and the one LED lights, it's not the switch, power supply, or Tortoise. The two back to back protect each other from excessive reverse voltage, and the Tortoise motor itself provided current limiting well within the allowed range for common LEDs. It's actually a quite elegant design to get panel indicators without running more than 2 wires to the Tortoise, that as mentioned also indicate if the Tortoise actually moves, since the LEDs dim while in motion and then go to full brightness at the end of the throw.
Phoebe Vet I vote for miswired. Disconnect everything and start at the switch. Test that you have DC power before and after the switch. Throw the switch and check that it is reversed. Then add components one at a time and test. You will eventually find the problem. An LED installed improperly will block DC current flow. Check them carefully.
I vote for miswired. Disconnect everything and start at the switch. Test that you have DC power before and after the switch. Throw the switch and check that it is reversed. Then add components one at a time and test. You will eventually find the problem.
An LED installed improperly will block DC current flow. Check them carefully.
Yep, that is what I would do too,
I have had 64 Tortoises on my layout for the past 10 years, and none has ever failed. I see no real reason for using an LED to indicate if the Tortoise is functionally properly. Worse yet, if a faulty LED shuts down the Tortoise, what good is that?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
richhotrainThere must be a better way to wire this entire circuit to prevent loss of power to the Tortoise if the LED fails.
It would be nice to have an LED that indicates that there is simply voltage across the Tortoise, but it wouldn't indicate that the Tortoise actually failed. This circuit is better because it indicates that current is going through the Tortoise. There's a problem if the LED isn't lit.
Hopefully the cheap LED is simply burnt out, but it could still be the one side of the Tortoise
It's unusual that an LED can be in the circuit path like this and provide such a definitive indication of a problem.
Thanks, greg.
There must be a better way to wire this entire circuit to prevent loss of power to the Tortoise if the LED fails.
Isn't there?
richhotrainWould a burned out Red LED prevent power from reaching the Tortoise? It is interesting to me that nothing works when he flips the toggle on the DPDT one way. Not the Red LED and not the Tortoise.
It is interesting to me that nothing works when he flips the toggle on the DPDT one way.
Not the Red LED and not the Tortoise.
yes
i believe he has a combination of the two drawings. The first doesn't show the switch. The bi-polar LED in the 2nd figure is replaced by the two LEDs wired as shown in the 1st drawing.
The two LEDs are wired opposite one another so that only one LED passes current depending on the polarity of the voltage applied. Same with the bi-polar/color LED. The dpdt switch reverses the voltage and the current flows through one LED or the other..
if the one (red) LED is burnt out, there's no connection to the Tortoise for the associated switch position. and the green LED, that still works, is reversed biased and blocks current flow. The Tortoise only sees the one voltage and therefore never changes position.
I thought i read that the Tortoise is equivalent to a 600 Ohm resistor. Assuming 1.4V LED max voltage and 7.5V operating voltage, the LED current is ~10ma. How close is this to the max current of the LEDs?
edit: you can check if the LED is bad by measuring the voltages across both LEDs. There should only be ~1.5v across the LED that works. If the LED is burnt out, the full operating voltage, 7.5V, will be across the LED.
If there's a problem with the switch, there will be no voltage across the LED.
Let me show my ignorance of electronic circuitry with this question.
Would a burned out Red LED prevent power from reaching the Tortoise?
Harold,
Then it is certain to be a open Red LED,,Burnt out.
It is wired like the TOP picture above
hwolfThe LEDs are wired as follows Both red wires going to black wire of other LED. One LED wired to center post of DPDT Toggle Other going to Tortoise. Don't forget these have been working with this configuration.
Both red wires going to black wire of other LED.
One LED wired to center post of DPDT Toggle
Other going to Tortoise.
Don't forget these have been working with this configuration.
are you saying that the LED is in series with the Tortise?
if so, can an LED handle that much current? did it burn out?
edit: what are red and black wires going to (if LED, to cathode or anode)
are they wired as shown in one of the following figure?
All of the above suggestions make sense.
This may require a bench test to isolate the faulty component.
Have you done anything recently to the "circuit"? Or did this problem just start occurring without any intervention on your part?
Beautifully opaque. Have you tried applying about 9VDC directly to the 1 and 8 connections on the tortoise to see if it is working?
Joe
The LEDs are wired as follows