Havign all 4 sets fo points move at the saem time STILL does not preclude the inclusion of the (generally overkill for model railroads, since plastic people aren't alive to begin with) option of having an absolute interlock. Individual control of the points has the exact same problem - just because you flipped the toggle to move the Tortoise, how do you know the points closed? Maybe the motor is frozen. Maybe the connection broke. Maybe the throwbar is broken and only 1 of the pair actually moved. You can protect against all but the point becomign unattached to the throwbar by including a microswitch that is moved by the thowbar for positive feedback (instead of using the Tortoise contacts). So you would eb able to tell if the points all closed even if all 4 sets are controlled by one operating swtich. And set signals accordingly - instead of just assumign that because you changed the control panel switch, everything out on the railroad just worked.
Not too many people go through all that, but the option is there if you want to have full actual position feedback for interlocking. If your turnouts are power routing, you can actually do it without the microswitches, at least when there is some continuous power on the track like with DCC. The weak poitn there is making sure your turnouts are wired reliably so that power passes through where it is supposed to.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Only both straight or both crossing are possible routes anyway, anything else would be conflicting. I can't imagine any case where you would need to line each of the 4 points individually.
On a GRS Model-5 interlocking machine EACH SWITCH must have its own controller. While it is true that these controllers are paired with only one lever, the controls are separate. (if you look at the machine you will see a blank slot next to the lever which holds the apparatus for the other switch in the crossing) If a chunk of ballast or of ice prevents one set of switchpoints from closing, then the lever for that pair cannot be fully set nor the alignment locked so that a signal can be given. The towerman will have to go down to the ground to correct the situation. Obviously if one crossing is aligned, the lever for the conflicting crossing cannot be moved.
You can see the red painted signal levers on the outside or the row, the switch levers all have a blank slot next to them for the second switch for each crossover.
This is called safety.
Maybe you do not need this degree of safety on your model railroad, but it is quite necessary on mine what with trains running 3 minutes apart. The LPPs running my locomotives cannot really see the signals, but the interlocking does control movements and does lock trains from leaving a station (Control Point) unless he has a clear movement to his next station or through the interlocking, if any.
LION thinks that operating an interlocking tower in a prototypical fashion adds a nice aspect to operating the layout.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Only both straight or both crossing are possible routes anyway, anything else would be conflicting. I can't imagine any case where you would need to line each of the 4 points individually. If say 1 is crossing over to 2, then oncoming traffic on 1 has to stop, oncoming traffice on 2 has to stop, and overtaking traffic on 2 has to stop. Which way the 2 to 1 points are lines makes no difference, so who cares if they move with the 1 to 2 points? Or flip it around, 2 crossing to 1 - same thing, just reversed. And if both are lined straight - it makes no sense for any of the 4 points to be set diverging, that's a conflict.
While you might not want to make the linakge to operate the whole thing from one point motor, you can wire them all together to move at the same time. Why overcomplicate things with individual control where it doesn't make sense, the only real outcome would be to miss alinging one and sending trains off the rails. Power routing is not affected by that either.
LION NEVER wires his double crossovers to work in tandem like that.
Each route (pair of switches) has its own lever on the interlocking machine as it must have to lock out a conflicting routing, and also controls the signals. It is true in HO this may be of little import, but since these levers also route power to the terminal it is nice to have the no-intended route to be inert. (Albeit there are also signal levers for the terminal that also enforce this protocol.)
LION must align the switches and then also move a lever to clear the home signal.
THAT is the way it is done!
hdtvnut Why would you not want the four points to change together, unless you like derailments? Hal
Why would you not want the four points to change together, unless you like derailments?
Hal
Hal, I agree with you that you would typically want all four points to change together and that is how I operate my two double crossovers.
I suppose the one instance where you might throw less than all four simultaneously is in a situation where four turnouts have been installed to simulate a double crossover. In that event, each crossover pair might be powered separately, or operated manually, to traverse the entire double crossover.
Rich
Alton Junction
I installed a Shinohara code 100 double xover in our club layout, which can have either DC or DCC on either A or B. We use one switch to throw all four points at the same time, except there is an interlock so the points go or stay straight any time the power type is different. The switch has worked fine for years.
Fred, thanks for that input.
Very interesting and very informative.
richhotrain It's too bad that Walthers doesn't make a Code 100 DCC Friendly double crossover. Under the Walthers Shinohara brand, there is a Code 83 DCC Friendly double crossover. I have two of them on my layout, and they work just fine, requiring no special wiring or rail gap cuts. You just gotta be sure to place feeder wires on all four ends of the double crossover. So, I just wonder why Walthers has not done this in Code 100. I will say this. Whereas Walthers Shinohara has a whole line of specialty track in Code 83, the availability of the same specialty track in Code 100 is virtually nonexistent. That is one reason why my layout is done mostly in Code 83 track.
It's too bad that Walthers doesn't make a Code 100 DCC Friendly double crossover.
Under the Walthers Shinohara brand, there is a Code 83 DCC Friendly double crossover. I have two of them on my layout, and they work just fine, requiring no special wiring or rail gap cuts. You just gotta be sure to place feeder wires on all four ends of the double crossover.
So, I just wonder why Walthers has not done this in Code 100.
I will say this. Whereas Walthers Shinohara has a whole line of specialty track in Code 83, the availability of the same specialty track in Code 100 is virtually nonexistent. That is one reason why my layout is done mostly in Code 83 track.
Understanding the Walthers/Shinohara business relationship is key. Before the Walthers deal, Shinohara made HO track in code 100 and code 70. They batch manufacture, which means they rotate what lines of track are being produced at any given time. Typically, supplies would run low on a given line before a new batch would be produced.
A while back (1990s I believe), Walthers contracted with Shinohara to produce a line of code 83 track. The code 83 line is sold exclusively under the Walthers name, and Walthers apparently has priority on Shinohara's production resources. So the Walthers code 83 track gets replenished more frequently than the other lines. With Walthers having the name and distribution and priority that the Shinohara brand does not, the code 70 and code 100 lines have fallen into very sporadic production.
The Walthers code 83 line was also the first Shinohara track with the "DCC-friendly" "upgrade". I'm not sure the Shinohara HOn3, code 70, or code 100 lines have ever had "DCC-friendly" turnouts. All the Shinohara brand turnouts I have seen still have power-routing and powered frogs (particularly in HOn3). For the most part, when wired correctly, the power routing and powered frogs work just fine with DCC. Occasionally, an out-of-gauge (in the narrow direction) wheelset will bridge the opposite polarity open point and stock rail, causing a DCC shutdown due to the momentary short from the back of the metal wheel brushing against the open point.
Given the lack of sales of new HO code 100 track, I would expect ever-longer intervals between production of Shinohara code 100 specialty items.
my thoughts and experiences, your choices
Fred W
Rich,
That does seem a little odd,,,who know's?
Cheers,
Frank
SMOKING TRAINMy layout is DCC and it is a parallel run. I don't know what brand of Double Crossover I will purchase. Do you have a suggestion. One reply said I needed a Insulfrog type.
Bottom Line??????
Here is the critical excerpt from Allan's write up:
Conversion to DCC friendliness is therefore relatively straight forward.
1) Cut both closure rails to isolate them from the frog. Of course, you may want to fill the gap with a piece of styrene and epoxy as you would do with any rail cut. Do this to all four frogs and closure rails.
2) Replace the throw bar with a printed circuit board throw bar. Cut through the copper on the top so that the two point rails are not electrically connected to each other. Do this to all four sets of points.
3) Drop feeder from the point rails or solder bonds (jumpers) around the joiners used to pivot the point rails. This is optional, but I highly recommend doing this to ensure long and troublefree life of your double crossover.
Conversion time is probably under 15 minutes for the first switch. Probably much less by the time you get to the fourth one.
Little over half way down this page on Allan Gartner's site: http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
are the instructions for wiring the Walthers non-DCC friendly double crossover.
I believe you have to cut gaps,in some rails also and have to have the switch machines throw the points at the same time,for route change..You have to do that on all crossovers anyway...If it were my choice,,I would get one that was easy to wire..
Frank,
I'm thinking you are right.
I read on one forum that a guy painted the frogs to solve the problem.
Using a double crossover on a Code 100 DCC powered layout can be a nightmare.
Seems like the best solutions for the OP are to either go with 4 turnouts or pick up a Walthers Shinohara Code 83 double crossover which is DCC friendly. Just shim it to fit in place with Code 100 adjoining tracks.
I believe it is,,,but I never used them,,only curved turnouts..
Let me ask this.
Is the Shinohara Code 100 double crossover a power routing section of track?
richhotrain No idea, Frank. Send me a link. Rich
No idea, Frank. Send me a link.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/219427.aspx
I said Peco,,but I believe it was ME Electro frog turnouts..
richhotrain SMOKING TRAINSorry, I do not have a diagram if my layout. All I can tell you is it is in a horse shoe shape. LOL OK, we will wait for Frank to work that one out for us. Rich
SMOKING TRAINSorry, I do not have a diagram if my layout. All I can tell you is it is in a horse shoe shape.
LOL
OK, we will wait for Frank to work that one out for us.
My guess,is that you don't remember,the in-depth discussion,that you partook in, July 25,2013..It was about,wiring a double crossover turnout, (Peco)...Switch Wiring Problems,,,In Electronics and DCC..
Terry,
One clarification. when I said A -Track and B-Track, I mean A-Rail and B-Rail. Both together make up the "track". Sorry
TrainmanBarrett
I am including a you tube video link that might help you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHtK5uf0IHo When wiring your track, Eastbound and west bound don't play into it as that is handled by the controller of your DCC system. Decide on a non-turnout location which track will be A Track and which track will be B Track. Then follow that around with your finger and make sure each set of 2 tracks maintains the A-B setup. If at some point they do not, or cannot, then you need an auto reversing unit. An example would be a wye turnout that comes back on itself. The loop portion of that trackage would need to be insulated from the rest and an auto reverser put on that loop. The difference in frogs is that some frogs are live and get their current from the moving rail in the turnout...some are neutral and have no current. All can be wired to handle current as you decide......always remembering the above track A-B in line or an auto reverser.
Hope this makes sense and helps
DCC Friendly depends on your layout and what you are trying to do.
LION has several cross overs that work between the local and the express tracks either east bound or west bound but of course not both. No chance to change from an east track to a west track. THAT SHOULD WORK NO MATTER WHAT!
LION has other crossover between the Northbound track and the Southbound track. It is at a terminal at the end of the line. Some trains across the device are northbound, others are southbound. THIS CAN BE A PROBLEM, no matter what! But that is a problem of the reversing loop. Never mind that the loop is actually the mane lion and that it is nine miles long: Electrically it still looks like a loop.
Now it depends on how you wire it. As I said the LOOP is the MANE LION, that is where the power is applied, the terminal tracks are electrically DEAD until something is aligned to or from that track. Since it is part of the terminal, it is controlled by the tower, and power is aligned with the tracks.
You too can make the point moot. You isolate ALL OF THE RAILS on the entire crossover, and then wire the crossover as a single entity according to the track alignment. You may need some relays to figure this out, but yes, it can be done. All it takes is a little thought.
But of course LIONS have big furry paws and short tempers. Him cheated by not wiring the crossover at all. All you need is four foot long trains with 48 wheel pickup.
Well, you could make a double crossover out of four turnouts, but a manufactured double crossover is much more elegant.
Walthers Shinohara makes a DCC Friendly double crossover, but it is Code 83.
Shinohara makes a double crossover in Code 100, but it is not listed as "DCC Friendly".
However, I believe that the Shinohara Code 100 double crossover would work on a DCC layout with little or no modifications.
Can anyone comment on this?
zstripe He didn't mention any track,he is using and don't have the DB crossover yet...He asked for suggestions..for one..He can use..Again need more info.. Cheers, Frank
He didn't mention any track,he is using and don't have the DB crossover yet...He asked for suggestions..for one..He can use..Again need more info..
Aye there is the issue! The one double cross over at 242nd street is a Walther's product, but the others on my layout were all bench made from separate components. (4 switches and a crossing).