rrinker It's not terribly difficult. You just need to gap all rails past each turnout and apply feeders of the proper polarity. It will still short if you try to cross over and one turnout is not lined properly, can't fix that, but that is why it is common to operate both turnouts with a single control, since if one is lined straing and the other lined to cross over, even if it didn't short, you'd put the train on the ground. DC, DCC, it's all the same. --Randy
It's not terribly difficult. You just need to gap all rails past each turnout and apply feeders of the proper polarity. It will still short if you try to cross over and one turnout is not lined properly, can't fix that, but that is why it is common to operate both turnouts with a single control, since if one is lined straing and the other lined to cross over, even if it didn't short, you'd put the train on the ground.
DC, DCC, it's all the same.
--Randy
Well, there you go. Thanks, Randy.
Fisch?
Rich
Alton Junction
when it's just one way, like one of those sketches posted before, you just need to gap the center two rails after the frog. These are the gaps you see illustrated on things like the Fast Tracks templates as well, for the same reason. With two turnouts facing each other, pretty sure you need to gap all rails as I said.
Now there may be a further complication with the crossing used - I didn;t see if that's an Insulfrog or Electrofrog, or other than Peco. If it's a Peco Electrofrog, it too requires gapping. Yes, a lot of gaps in a small space, but if feeders are applied, then there will be absolutely no dead areas in all tha trackwork, and even the smallest loco should be able to run through nice and slow. That's the tradeoff with Electrofrog - much more complicated wiring, but also better operation. With DCC you can provide the gaps, and then power everything with Frog Juicers from Tam Valley, no need to even figure out which side of a switch motor contact to hook to which rail, but they don;t work on DC. It's still not a bad idea to modify the turnouts as shown on the Wiring for DCC site so that the power to the frog is provided through switch contacts and not just the point rails pressing against the stock rail, for long term reliability.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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Randy, wouldn't it be a lot easier in this paricular situation if Fisch just used Insulfrog turnouts and crossings?
Well, yeah, it would be EASIER - but where's the fun in that?
rrinker Well, yeah, it would be EASIER - but where's the fun in that? --Randy
LOL
True enough, but for such a simple layout, an oval inside an oval, and two trains running at the same time at the same speed, without any desire to run them independently, I wonder why the OP chose the electrofrog approach. Too many wiring and gapping requirements for such a simple operation.
Randy,
Thanks, Randy,,,But I believe it's not over yet..I've been trying to get some answers,as to what he is using to control the switch machines,but he hasn't said,just one buzz's. Mine are wired exactly like you said,,with no problem's..All DC with Atlas,under table machines,with snap-relay to power the frog and control panel lites,,so,it's not just like I just fell of a turnup truck,,,,maybe getting a little nuts...LOL..
Cheers,
Frank
Well, Atlas are all rail turnouts, always powered on all routes, no power routing, with completely insulated frogs (even if the Custom Line ones have a metal frog with an attachment to supply power, it's still completely insulated), as are their crossings.
Peco Electrofrogs are power routing and have much different wiring requirements compared to Atlas - if you've only ever used Atlas in your life, it's a whole new ballgame.
rrinker Peco Electrofrogs are power routing and have much different wiring requirements compared to Atlas - if you've only ever used Atlas in your life, it's a whole new ballgame.
I think that the OP will come to that conclusion as well.
How difficult is it to convert an electrofrog turnout into an insulfrog turnout?
Or, can it even be done?
richhotrain True enough, but for such a simple layout, an oval inside an oval, and two trains running at the same time at the same speed, without any desire to run them independently, I wonder why the OP chose the electrofrog approach. Too many wiring and gapping requirements for such a simple operation.
Ummm - the OP didn't realize the mess he was getting himself into. That's why.
richhotrain How difficult is it to convert an electrofrog turnout into an insulfrog turnout? Or, can it even be done? Rich
According to Peco, it's not possible.
zstripe Randy, Thanks, Randy,,,But I believe it's not over yet..I've been trying to get some answers,as to what he is using to control the switch machines,but he hasn't said,just one buzz's. Mine are wired exactly like you said,,with no problem's..All DC with Atlas,under table machines,with snap-relay to power the frog and control panel lites,,so,it's not just like I just fell of a turnup truck,,,,maybe getting a little nuts...LOL.. Cheers, Frank
The switch machine is my index finger. Thankfully, that's not buzzing. Yet.
The switch itself is buzzing.
richhotrain rrinker Peco Electrofrogs are power routing and have much different wiring requirements compared to Atlas - if you've only ever used Atlas in your life, it's a whole new ballgame. I think that the OP will come to that conclusion as well. Rich
I agree. Wholeheartedly.
rrinker when it's just one way, like one of those sketches posted before, you just need to gap the center two rails after the frog... With two turnouts facing each other, pretty sure you need to gap all rails as I said. If it's a Peco Electrofrog, it too requires gapping. Yes, a lot of gaps in a small space, but if feeders are applied, then there will be absolutely no dead areas in all tha trackwork... That's the tradeoff with Electrofrog - much more complicated wiring, but also better operation... It's still not a bad idea to modify the turnouts as shown on the Wiring for DCC site so that the power to the frog is provided through switch contacts and not just the point rails pressing against the stock rail, for long term reliability. --Randy
when it's just one way, like one of those sketches posted before, you just need to gap the center two rails after the frog... With two turnouts facing each other, pretty sure you need to gap all rails as I said.
If it's a Peco Electrofrog, it too requires gapping. Yes, a lot of gaps in a small space, but if feeders are applied, then there will be absolutely no dead areas in all tha trackwork... That's the tradeoff with Electrofrog - much more complicated wiring, but also better operation... It's still not a bad idea to modify the turnouts as shown on the Wiring for DCC site so that the power to the frog is provided through switch contacts and not just the point rails pressing against the stock rail, for long term reliability.
Randy - I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying I should wire for the DCC diagram I posted way back at the beginning? And then power the short dead stretch?
If the crossing you used in the middle of all that is also an Electrofrog - here is a link to an article that shows how to wire it (from the April 2005 MR): http://ehis.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?sid=d2293e67-5355-4a02-b160-a2c9a85ff253%40sessionmgr113&vid=1&hid=105&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=f5h&AN=15984903
On the turnouts, gap the two inner rails (the ones that come together to form the frog point). On the crossing, same thing. Any track between those insulated joiners needs to have feeders run to it. If the turnout and the crossing directly connect, you don't need any more feeders but you will probably need to power the frogs on the crossing for reliable operation.
Fisch, any chance that you can return the electrofrog turnouts and crossing and replace them with insulfrogs?
It really really should just work if the rails off the frogs are insualted. I went back to the beginning and saw that the crossing is a Setrack piece - hmm, I think those are insualted frogs, like an Atlas.
So, insulate the two rails on each turnout that go together to make the frog.
Assuming the mains go left to right on the page, with the X of the crossing in the middle:
Rail on straight leg of two bottom turnouts: Feeder A
Rail on diverging side of lower left turnout: Feeder B
Rail between LL diverging and crossing: Feeder B
Rail on straight leg between frogs of lower turnouts: Feeder B
Diverging frog rail of LL turnout to crossing: Feeder A
Diverging frog rail of lower RIGHT turnout to crossing: Feeder A
rail on diverging side of LR turnout - Feeder B
Rail between LR diverging and crossing: Feeder B
Straight rail between two UPPER turnouts: Feeder B
Diverging side of upper left turnout: Feeder A
Diverging side of UP turnout to crossing: Feeder A
Frog rail of UR turnout to crossing: Feeder B
Rail between frogs of upper turnouts: Feeder A
Frog rail of upper RIGHT turnout to crossing: Feeder B
Diverging side of upper right turnout" Feeder A
Diverging side of upper right turnout to crossing: Feeder A
That should be all the proper polarities. It will still short if the opposing turnouts are not both lined the same way - say upper right is set to straight through, and lower left is set to go over the crossing - it will short when a train crosses the gaps.But if both turnouts are lined to cross over, it will work, or if both turnouts are lined to go straight through, it will work.
rrinker If the crossing you used in the middle of all that is also an Electrofrog - here is a link to an article that shows how to wire it (from the April 2005 MR): http://ehis.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail?sid=d2293e67-5355-4a02-b160-a2c9a85ff253%40sessionmgr113&vid=1&hid=105&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=f5h&AN=15984903 On the turnouts, gap the two inner rails (the ones that come together to form the frog point). On the crossing, same thing. Any track between those insulated joiners needs to have feeders run to it. If the turnout and the crossing directly connect, you don't need any more feeders but you will probably need to power the frogs on the crossing for reliable operation. --Randy
The crossing is an insulfrog (see below). Does this look right to you?
Peco information:
ST-7 Crossing (Insulfrog): http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Track-templates/c80/ST-7.pdf
SL-E395/E396 Electrofrog Switches: http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Track-templates/c80/SL-395%20&%20SL-396.pdf
richhotrain Fisch, any chance that you can return the electrofrog turnouts and crossing and replace them with insulfrogs? Rich
I've thought about that. Unfortunately, I am outside of the return window. $16.09 x 8 = $128.72 + S&H, which is a bit pricey to replace all 8 turnouts. A few insulating joiners would be cheaper, although I may not have much hair left by the time it is all said and done...
Fisch richhotrain Fisch, any chance that you can return the electrofrog turnouts and crossing and replace them with insulfrogs? Rich I've thought about that. Unfortunately, I am outside of the return window. $16.09 x 8 = $128.72 + S&H, which is a bit pricey to replace all 8 turnouts. A few insulating joiners would be cheaper, although I may not have much hair left by the time it is all said and done...
Where did you get them?
richhotrain Where did you get them? Rich
I hope I'm not violating any forum rules, but since you asked:
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/N-Scale-Code-80-Track-s/1451.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=1451&show=30&page=1&brand=Peco
Fisch richhotrain Where did you get them? Rich I hope I'm not violating any forum rules, but since you asked: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/N-Scale-Code-80-Track-s/1451.htm?searching=Y&sort=3&cat=1451&show=30&page=1&brand=Peco
Nah, you're not breaking any rules.
MB Klein is an outstanding vendor with a superb Customer Service Department.
I would encourage you to call them tomorrow and explain the situation. Ask if you can exchange the four electrofrog turnouts for insulfrog turnouts. Chances are they will work out an exchange with you.
Since the crossing that you have is an insulfrog, if you put the insulfrog turnouts in place, you will not need to gap any rails, and the wiring will be simple because the insulfrog turnouts are not power routing.
As a side note;
My experience with Peco Electro Frog turnouts is limited,I will freely admit and I choose Atlas turnouts for ease of installing,my experience with original Shinohara turnouts,is not limited..
Too bad that the OP bought electrofrog turnouts. Had he simply purchased insulfrog turnouts for his track plan, there would be no problems.
That last drawing should work.
If you use insulated joiners you don;t also have to cut the rails. The advantage of cutting the rails instead of using insulated joiners is that you cna put gaps where you need them, not just a rail joints, except in this case we want them right at the turnout anyway. It's the other way around - when you cut gaps in the rail with a Dremel it's advisable to fill the gap with something to prevent the gap from closing unexpectedly if the rail moves - a problem caused by a gap closing can be very hard to track down, especially if you've cleaned up the cut area nicely. it can be hard to see if it closes up. Some people find the insulated joiners to be unsightly - like the Atlas N scale ones that were bright orange, and one brand I remember from back in the day in HO was white, probably Atlas as well. The new Atlas HO ones are clear, not sure about Peco's.
rrinker That last drawing should work.
I believe,,I said that back in page,2 or 3,,but the OP, never said if he tried it or not..
zstripe rrinker That last drawing should work. I believe,,I said that back in page,2 or 3,,but the OP, never said if he tried it or not.. Cheers, Frank
Yeah, I agree, the 8 gaps shown in that drawing are needed to deal with the power routing issues.
As far as feeders are concerned, the OP may need more feeder wires than the few shown in the diagram, but that will become obvious as he tries to run trains on that setup.
If the bottom loop is continuous, no more Electrofrog turnouts between the two shown, it is OK. Another pair of feeders on the lower right wouldn;t hurt though. The top right siding will have poor or no power without another set of feeders over there. The jumpers shown are sufficient to power past the gaps in the frog rails. What's gapped at teh frog of one turnout leading to the crossing is connected to the solid rail diverging side of the opposite turnout, so there should be power through the crossing area.
These two illustrations from the Southern Digital website, http://www.sodigi.com/electrofrog.htm, show the power routing effect of the Peco Electrofrog. The first illustration is the straight through route, and the second illustration is the divergent route. If you imagine four right and left turnouts, two each, connected together by an Insulfrog crossing, you can visualize the required gapping and the resulting feeder wire connections.
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