Taylor 67I would only run one loco per train at a time. Would do some switching in a yard while another is moving on the main. Its a small branch line serviceing a mining and logging industry line. Thank you everyone for great input
Sounds like a perfect application for DC.
Set cab A to the mains, adjust the throttle and watch as one train circles the layout. Set cab B to the yard / branch line and switch away.
Pick up a couple of MRC packs off ebay for 80 to 100 dollars total, some Atlas selectors and wire and your done with the control system.
Jim
Taylor 67 After phase 2 is done there will be over 180ft of track, 5 switch machines, 2 reversing loops and 2 turntables and I would like it all to be controlled by DCC but the cost might prevent me. I will only run 2 to 3 locos at a time
After phase 2 is done there will be over 180ft of track, 5 switch machines, 2 reversing loops and 2 turntables and I would like it all to be controlled by DCC but the cost might prevent me. I will only run 2 to 3 locos at a time
Taylor,
I will piggyback off of some of the comment made already...
Does 2 or 3 locos mean one train with multiple locos at the head, or 2 or 3 separate trains?
IMO, it becomes mentally challenging when a modeler tries to operate (meaning adjust speeds, stop, perhaps reverse directions or switch cars) 3 trains at a time. Neither DC nor DCC will really keep that process from being overwhelming to the lone operator, IMO.
Personally, I think operating more than one train at a time takes more focus than I like, but some like to do that. As an example, having 2 trains meet at a passing siding certainly would not be something that's overwhelming. Both DCC and DC could handle this operating element pretty simply.
If 2 or 3 locos means a consist of locos running together, speed matching new locos right out of the box with DC these days is probably less of an issue than it used to be. They all tend to have similar low draw smooth motors, circuit boards, and gear ratios, than in the days of yore.
Mixing and matching locomotive consists without ever placing locomotives on and off the layout, like with a large roundhouse and engine servicing facilities, is way easier with DCC.
And if your 180 ft of track will stretch over a long distance, then you'll want to think about tethered or wireless throttles. DCC systems have wireless throttles...and AristoCraft makes a wireless throttle that works well on DC HO and n sclae layouts. More manufacturer's make tethered throttles.
Take these operating situations into account when making your decision.
- Douglas
CSX Robert ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... Consisting - this is a lot of work with DCC, making sure locos run well together, setting CV's, doing speed tests etc. Depending on the specific locos and goals, it is often easier in DC than DCC. If I install the same decoder, with the same CV settings in two identical locos, there is no guaranty they will run the same speed. But two identical locos with no decoders (not locos with dual mode decoders) with almost always run well together on DC. ... It has been my experience that two locos that run fine together on DC will also run fine together on DCC with the same decoder without speed matching. I often see people list the difficulties of speed matching as one of the disadvantages of DCC. First of all, I do not find it difficult, but even for those that do, it is not something that you have to do, it is only necessary if you want to run engines together that normally would not run well together. It is at least an option you have with DCC that you do not have with DC unless you want to get into adding resistors or diodes or get into re-gearing. Honestly, I dom't see how speed-matchinig could be listed as anything but an advantange for DCC.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... Consisting - this is a lot of work with DCC, making sure locos run well together, setting CV's, doing speed tests etc. Depending on the specific locos and goals, it is often easier in DC than DCC. If I install the same decoder, with the same CV settings in two identical locos, there is no guaranty they will run the same speed. But two identical locos with no decoders (not locos with dual mode decoders) with almost always run well together on DC. ...
...
Consisting - this is a lot of work with DCC, making sure locos run well together, setting CV's, doing speed tests etc. Depending on the specific locos and goals, it is often easier in DC than DCC. If I install the same decoder, with the same CV settings in two identical locos, there is no guaranty they will run the same speed. But two identical locos with no decoders (not locos with dual mode decoders) with almost always run well together on DC.
It has been my experience that two locos that run fine together on DC will also run fine together on DCC with the same decoder without speed matching. I often see people list the difficulties of speed matching as one of the disadvantages of DCC. First of all, I do not find it difficult, but even for those that do, it is not something that you have to do, it is only necessary if you want to run engines together that normally would not run well together. It is at least an option you have with DCC that you do not have with DC unless you want to get into adding resistors or diodes or get into re-gearing. Honestly, I dom't see how speed-matchinig could be listed as anything but an advantange for DCC.
I'm NOT desputing the advantages of being able to speed match any loco with DCC. I'm saying it is just one more feature of DCC that is labor/time intensive and that I have never needed in my modeling.
I have never added resistors or modified locos in any way (other than removing and discarding DCC decoders) to get them to run together with DC.
Sure, not every loco will run with ever loco. But I don't need that. Here is what I need, and it works fine with zero extra effort.
My matched sets (I model the early 50's, when most diesels still ran that way) of PROTO, INTERMOUTAIN, GENESIS, and even of set of BLI diesels all run fine together. And, in the case of the PROTO locos, all the B-B locos, FA1, FA2, GP7, BL2, etc,etc, all run together just fine - its the same drive.
More importantly STEAM. Long before DCC, modelers found that model staem locos with similar starting voltages and similar gearing/driver sizes would run fine together of DC.
Some modern examples - I mix and match all the following locos in various double head/tripple head configurations with no problems:
PROTO 2-8-8-2
SPECTRUM 2-6-6-2
SPECTRUM 4-8-2 Heavy
SPECTRUM 2-8-0
BACHMANN 2-8-4 (converted to freelanced 2-8-2)
BROADWAY 2-8-2 Heavy (decoders and sound complelely removed, tender replaced with Bachmann long haul tenders)
None of these locos have sound or decoders of any sort.
I have multiple copies of all these locos, and mix and match them as needed with no problems and no mods specificly aimed and making them run together.
So why would I want all that extra work and expense with a total loco fleet of 130?
The DC throttles I use are pulse width modulated just like DCC motor control, they give smooth starts and great slow speed.
Sheldon
BRAKIE MisterBeasleysmall layout is very difficult to "block" effectively. The blocks would need to be so small that one would spend all his time flipping toggles from one to the next. Well sir,that has been a issue for years-over blocking small layouts that DCC has cured for multi train operation.. However,a small layout needn't be operated like a major division so,why the block overkill? To my mind(as warp as it is) operation should be tailored to fit the layout size. A example would be operate (say) a 4x8' layout as a branch line or short line..This would include small bedroom size around the wall layouts as well.
MisterBeasleysmall layout is very difficult to "block" effectively. The blocks would need to be so small that one would spend all his time flipping toggles from one to the next.
Well sir,that has been a issue for years-over blocking small layouts that DCC has cured for multi train operation..
However,a small layout needn't be operated like a major division so,why the block overkill?
To my mind(as warp as it is) operation should be tailored to fit the layout size.
A example would be operate (say) a 4x8' layout as a branch line or short line..This would include small bedroom size around the wall layouts as well.
Always been my point too, if the layout is that small, I'm not interested in trying to operate more than one train at a time. So simple kill sections and sidings/spurs that turn off automaticly when turnouts are thrown works very well, and is simple to operate and wire/build.
My "big layout" is really just a bunch of smaller layouts intergated into each other in that way. Yards, industrial areas and branch lines can all operate as stand alone operations, while the "big trains" go to and from distant "places" on th mainline - CTC controlled with a dispatcher and signals.
MisterBeasley ATLANTIC CENTRAL Without features like wireless throttles and/or multiple cabs, or cabs that control sound and other functions, what is the point of DCC? I've found that DCC has a particular advantage for smaller layouts, like the original Phase 1 of my own. But, it does involve running multiple trains, either by myself or with another operator. A small layout is very difficult to "block" effectively. The blocks would need to be so small that one would spend all his time flipping toggles from one to the next. DCC eliminates this issue. I still divide my layout into sections isolated for power-control purposes, but that's operationally transparent. I like to run a couple of trains around by themselves, looping while I actively run a switching operation. It would be impossible to manage this if I had to worry about blocks every time I took the main for a short run. Of course, this is the way I run my layout, but it's one of the reasons I prefer DCC. When I was a teenager, I had a layout almost as large as the one I've got now. Back then, we didn't even have computers, let alone DCC, and I was perfectly happy running on DC.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Without features like wireless throttles and/or multiple cabs, or cabs that control sound and other functions, what is the point of DCC?
Without features like wireless throttles and/or multiple cabs, or cabs that control sound and other functions, what is the point of DCC?
I've found that DCC has a particular advantage for smaller layouts, like the original Phase 1 of my own. But, it does involve running multiple trains, either by myself or with another operator.
A small layout is very difficult to "block" effectively. The blocks would need to be so small that one would spend all his time flipping toggles from one to the next. DCC eliminates this issue. I still divide my layout into sections isolated for power-control purposes, but that's operationally transparent.
I like to run a couple of trains around by themselves, looping while I actively run a switching operation. It would be impossible to manage this if I had to worry about blocks every time I took the main for a short run. Of course, this is the way I run my layout, but it's one of the reasons I prefer DCC.
When I was a teenager, I had a layout almost as large as the one I've got now. Back then, we didn't even have computers, let alone DCC, and I was perfectly happy running on DC.
I agree completely, in fact I pointed out in my first post in this thread that DCC is especially well suited to small layouts with multiple trains.
BUT, I would not want to do that from fixed, or even tethered throttles, by myself or with another operator.
BUT, if your "loop" train is on a "loop", is the other train you are running on that same trackage? Must be a big enough loop to allow time for the train you are actually "operating" to "get in, and get out", turnout operation included?
That's what I will not do. My layout is structured like most real life industrial/urban railroads. Mainline and industries are seperate. Trains can "serve" most of the indiustries from a "belt line" and return to the yard without ever "fouling the main". So trains looping the main, attended or unattended are not effected by switching operations.
I use DCC on a number of friends layouts, but do not care for any of the multi train features - i.e. dual knobs, stacking, etc.
And again, I consider wireless to be the single most improtant advancement in model train control - DCC or DC.
And, as a side note, DC multi train operation does not always require/use "toggle switches". I have eight cabs and can run eight trains simutaneously. And while I have an electrical system for directing cab power to individual track sections, I don't have one "block toggle".
But, agreed, small layouts present dificult power distribution issues for multi train DC operation.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I agree with Larry that if one wants a budget means to control sound equipped locos, the Tech 6 is a good option.
------------------------------------
It will indeed control one DCC/sound equipped locomotive with access to all CVs and rule 17 lighting.
Add the T6 hand held throttle you can control up to six locomotives,rule 17 plus access to all CVs..
Another cute little feature you can consist DC engines by using the start and top voltage programing on the T6 plus you can sit acceleration and deceleration momentum.You can have walk around by usung the hand held in DC mode.
This is probably the best DC power pack ever made and a "poor man's" DCC system all wrap into one..
A few more thoughts:
I use layout based wireless DC throttles and consider that single feature, walking around with the throttle, way more important than any of the other features of DCC.
I don't use onboard sound, so controlling sound is not needed. My wireless throttles work well and don't require me to install decoders in my 130 locos - work I can do, but really don't like.
I agree with Larry that if one wants a budget means to control sound equiped locos, the Tech 6 is a good option.
DISCLAIMER - I personally will not, and have no interest in, actually operating two trains at once. From where I sit, each train needs an operator - OR, it needs to be running in "display" mode on an isolated loop of track.
But being able to stay close to the loco, with a hand held throttle (preferably wireless), for switching, coupling and such, even on a small layout, is a feature I would never give up.
Dave,We have several such turnouts at the club-not DCC compatible and they work fine in DC.
There are older switches out there and still being sold.
The OP's budget is why I suggested the MRC T6 and handheld throttle-probably the best kept secrete in the hobby for the average home layout solo DCC operation...
Of course for very basic DCC operation Bachmann's E-Z DCC can be had for less then $100.00 street.
DCC is available for those that are budget restricted.
Several people have suggested that the OP can get into DCC without spending "a small fortune". I would just like to point out that "a small fortune" means different things to different people or even the same people at different times of their lives..
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
BRAKIE SmithSrDon't keep waiting & debating. Jump in! And if his turnouts isn't DCC friendly then he needs to spend more to replace those turnouts. Never jump into anything foolishly without looking first even in a hobby..I done that myself several times over the years and it cost far more then then end results was worth..If I had the money I wasted in this hobby by "jumping in" I could probably build a large layout building.
SmithSrDon't keep waiting & debating. Jump in!
And if his turnouts isn't DCC friendly then he needs to spend more to replace those turnouts.
Never jump into anything foolishly without looking first even in a hobby..I done that myself several times over the years and it cost far more then then end results was worth..If I had the money I wasted in this hobby by "jumping in" I could probably build a large layout building.
I have never met a turnout that was a problem for my Digitrax DCC system. It does not matter to the turnout whether the electricity flowing through it is DC or square wave AC. A short circuit is a short circuit in either case.
Joe Staten Island West
rrebell Wait for the new stuff Radio control battery powered!
Wait for the new stuff Radio control battery powered!
You're really fixated on that, aren't you?
A few thoughts:
Based on the OP's information, it seems to come down to this, how many locos will actually be MOVING at one time?
AND, Does he want sound?
More than two locos, yes to sound, DCC would be better. Two or less locos and no sound, DC would cost way less and be generally easy to impliment and operate.
DCC does have big advantages on small layouts with multiple trains running at once. As layout size increases relative to the number of trains running, those advanages deminish.
AND, with the current methods and standards in use by many of the manufacturers today, a great number of totally different locos run well enough together on DC to be easily double headed. Please ask me how I know and how long the list is of different locos that run well together on my layout.
If I was building a layout of the size the OP describes, I would have no interest in moving more than one "train" at a time - DC would be fine for me.
One thing that's sometimes not clear about DCC: You don't have to use it for everything. Turnouts and turntables, in particular, can still be run with old-fashioned toggle switches if you prefer, or you can run some one way, some the other.
When I started my layout 7 or 8 years ago, I planned to use DC for a while and then transition to DCC. A small financial windfall allowed me to buy a DCC system, though, and from the moment I ran my first DCC train, I was hooked. I was an 8-year-old kid again. I put my DC power pack away, and it was years before I took it out again. It now runs my DC-driven turntable.
I love DCC, and most who try it like it, too.
And let's not forget that the OP is highly budget conscious and plans to start with a small layout. DC will serve his needs just fine and he can always move up to DCC later.
Rich
Alton Junction
Some really great thoughts and suggestions in here.
It's interesting this topic came up as I have posted an article about my feelings on DCC on free-mo.org
http://free-mo.org/node/304
Basically, I appreciate the raw simple nature of DC. It's easy to grasp quickly and it won't cost a lot to get going. Consisting is no harder then setting locomotives together.Running one or 2 trains is really a simple matter.
DCC is great if you want to have absolute control be able to make things function together that would never work together easily under DC.
Automation is possible with both DC and DCC with CMRI and JMRI respectively.
Feel free to read my article. Keep in mind it is my own opinion after 15 years using it in a modular (lot's of setting up and breaking down the DCC system) Most of it doesn't really apply to a permanent layout as you just have to go through the pain of setup once
Chris
BRAKIE SmithSr Nothing to it really. DCC is a different power pack. It offers more individual locomotive control. How about simplifying the idea for the layout? No need to raise your own blood pressure over a layout in the planning stages, or worrying about how on earth you'll power it. I suggest jumping in. It's a hobby, after all, so have fun and learn something new! There is some other unanswered questions.One should never jump right into anything..He may end up in deep doo.
SmithSr Nothing to it really. DCC is a different power pack. It offers more individual locomotive control. How about simplifying the idea for the layout? No need to raise your own blood pressure over a layout in the planning stages, or worrying about how on earth you'll power it. I suggest jumping in. It's a hobby, after all, so have fun and learn something new!
Nothing to it really. DCC is a different power pack.
It offers more individual locomotive control. How about simplifying the idea for the layout? No need to raise your own blood pressure over a layout in the planning stages, or worrying about how on earth you'll power it.
I suggest jumping in. It's a hobby, after all, so have fun and learn something new!
There is some other unanswered questions.One should never jump right into anything..He may end up in deep doo.
Hi taylor 67!
If you only plan on running one train at a time, then DC will work great. In fact, with a little planning and proper wiring, DC can run several trains at once. However, if you want to run more than one train on your 60 ft. of track, you will have to pay fairly close attention to which power blocks your trains are in, and you might not be able to run two trains in close proximity to each other. Depending on your track plan, 60 ft. of track might not provide a lot of separation between locomotives! Setting up power blocks might be a challenge, but again, a lot depends on your track plan. (If you were to post your track plan here, you would get a lot of much more accurate advise than I can offer.)
On the other hand, DCC will allow you to run two (or more) locomotives in very close proximity so you can maximize the usage of your track regardless of the length, and in doing so, you can increase your model railroading pleasure.
The issue you raise about cost is obviously very legitimate. However, I get the feeling that your choice of reference material may have oversold you on the cost of DCC. You can get very high quality starter sets from several manufacturers without spending a fortune. I have an NCE Power Cab system. It comes with its own power supply and the booster is built in. It retails for somewhere around $170.00, maybe less. It allows you to operate at least 3 sound equipped locomotives. It is easily expandable to 5 amps should you need that sort of power when your layout expands, but until that happens the basic Power Cab will do you just fine.
You mention reversing loops so you will have to invest some money in those circuits too, but you are not talking huge dollars. Indeed, the reversing loop modules might be the best part of the whole layout because you won't have to be constantly on the lookout for switching polarity as your trains go around the loops like you would have to with basic DC.
DCC also offers the opportunity for sound equipped locomotives. Yes, there is a cost, but I really like my sound equipped locomotives. For me, sound is a huge part of my enjoyment of the hobby.
DCC does have its challenges! There is definitely a learning curve. Some sound decoders are relatively easy to program (Loksound). Some are not quite so easy at first (QSI, Tsumami). All of them can be figured out, and for some of us, that is half the fun.
Bottom line! Dive in now! You will likely do it anyhow, eventually! (Can you tell that I am biased towards DCC?).
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I took the plunge and set the DCC up as a second cab. First cab is a DC power pack, so I can still run my DC locos. Got two DCC locos with sound and when I want to run them, set all tracks except the track the DC locos are stored on, to cab 2 and away they go. Makes it so I didn't have to convert all at once. My NCE starter set was under $200 and there are new DCC with sound locos on ebay for around $100, some of the price depends on brand and what era you are modeling.
Both DCC locos have dual mode decoders, so I can run them DC if I want to. Haven't done it since the first day I had them. Takes quite a bit of throttle.
With this set up I can even run one loco on the main and do some switching with another (one in each mode), just as if I had two DC cabs.
Have fun,
Richard
Yeah size of layout has little correlation to how much equipment you need. 2-3 locos is the most you'd ever run? You could build a HUGE layout and stiull run just that many locos with a basic starter set liek the Zephyr Xtra plus a few AR1's for the reverse loops.
It's easy to get carried away and think you need 10's of amps to run the layotu - you don't. I've had 8 locos, 4 with sound, running on my old Zephyr, and the Xtra ahs even more power.
If the layout is REALLY huge, where the power wires will have to run hundreds of feet, it might be cheaper to add boosters and use smaller wire to prevent voltage drop than to get really heavy wire, but if you locate the amin system wisely, you cna have a pretty big layotu and still have no wires more than 50-75 feet, and with only 2-3 locos ever running, #12 wire is plenty.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Hey Guys
I sense there is an underlying question that is not being answered here.
Do you want to run DCC, or run a computer automated layout?
If you have 4 locomotives they need to be DCC equipped. Each reversing loop needs a reversing module. $40 bus + - A DCC system putting out 3 amps or so will run the locos and several lighted cars plus have extra capacity. If you need more than one operator you need a cab for each. Now if you want to use DCC to throw all the turnouts, it gets a little more expensive.
Good luck and have fun.
Lee