Not sure if I want to jump into DCC. I bought 2 books, DCC the basics and Digitrax big book of DCC. Seems that everything you want to do with it takes another module, or another booster or breaker and everything takes a decoder. And it all seems expensive. The first phase of my layout will have only about 60ft of track, 3 turnouts controlled with tortoise slow switch machines, one reversing loop and a turn table. After phase 2 is done there will be over 180ft of track, 5 switch machines, 2 reversing loops and 2 turntables and I would like it all to be controlled by DCC but the cost might prevent me. I will only run 2 to 3 locos at a time and not many(If any) lighted cars. I'm probably missing something but that's the gist. Thoughts any one?
I have always said that "if you are wondering whether you should marry a person or not, the fact you are asking the question at all,should give you your answer". The same goes for hobbies. If you are asking if you can afford something or not, just the fact you asked the question tells me you probably should have a little more padding in your bank account.
I am fortunate that money isn't an issue for me in retirement. However I am holding off buying all those more expensive brass Locomotives (for now) just because I don't feel time spent in the train room balances out with the cash outlay of the more luxurious items one can acquire.
I haven't had the latest top of the line mountain bike for a number of years now. Old age has put a crimp in my ability to enjoy that sport. It was easy to spend big bucks on a new one every couple of years when it got a lot of use though.
DCC is wonderful even on a small layout. I would trade owning fewer locos for DCC any day. I did delay buying my DCC system until I new MRR was going to stay with me as a hobby though. I ran my two DCC equipped locos with a 50 year old power pack on my 6' x 18' oval for a while. It was easy to take the plunge into DCC when I did though, but I never regretted taking my time doing so.
Good luck.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
I'm still on DC at home, but use DCC in my modular club. The club standard wiring (HOn3 Free-mo) can use Lenz, Digitrax, or NCE command stations and throttles. But we have never used anything but NCE at setups in the last 3 years.
The feet of track really has little impact on the choice or the cost. The number of turnouts doesn't either, unless you choose to control turnouts with DCC (most do not). I guess the DC equivalent of controlling turnouts with DCC would be a matrix route system - it's been done on complex layouts, but most don't bother.
What does matter is the number of trains being operated simulaneously, and how close they are being run together. For up to 2 trains simultaneously, DC wiring is pretty simple and cheap. If the number of simultaneous trains (double headed or triple headed counts as 1 train for DC purposes) gets to 3 or more, then the block switches/block implementation takes more thought and cost.
DCC's independent but direct control of locomotives rather than sections of track is also an advantage where track is shared between multiple trains in fairly close proximity.
Reversing loops are much easier to automate with DCC if bi-directional, continuous running through the reversing loop is anticipated.
Turntables are normally a wash (assumes split ring wiring).
If you want sound, go DCC.
The other important criteria is your understanding (or willingness to learn) how to implement DC or how to program DCC decoders. With both DC and DCC, you can remain at a very simple level and be quite happy (and it costs less). But if you want more, there is a learning curve with either DC or DCC. The DC learning curve is mostly in the implementation (the block control logic and wiring). The DCC curve is mostly in tuning decoders and locomotives through programming them.
my thoughts and experiences, your choices
Fred W
For a layout your size, you wouldn't need a large DCC setup.
Your base system could be a Digitrax Zephyr Extra ($225 list), which would provide you with 3.0 amps to power the trains. 4-6 locomotives could be run at the same time without overloading the power supply. The command station can handle 20 cabs (each throttle control is called a cab), and can run 20 locomotives at the same time.
If you need more power, I would recommend the DB200 PLUS 8 amp booster. List price is $200, slightly more than the 5 amp booster.
If you plan on having more than one person run trains at a time, you will need several operator cabs, which range in price from $80 to $135 depending on features (infrared, radio). A full throttle costs as much as a command station, and can be used to program locomotives. Operator throttles can run trains and operate accessories, but cannot be used for programming.
Digitrax makes a single-block autoreverser that costs $30. Other manufactures make multiple-block autoreversers that can be used with a Digitrax power bus, so shop around for what fits your needs best. A quad-autoreverser would probably best fit your needs, and I think NCE makes one for about $80.
A typical set-up for a layout your size would consist of:
The total cost would be $516-556 plus decoders. This is quite a bit, but the cost would be spread out over a couple years, starting with the command station, then the autoreverser, then a throttle and a panel, then a couple more panels, finally the second throttle.
Digitrax is nice because you can use the it to run a single DC locomotive without requiring you to install a DCC decoder (other manufacturers do not offer this feature).
I would use SPDT or DPDT switches to control the motorized turnouts and the turntables. Getting accessory decoders for these would cost a bit, and it would be simpler to just use switches.
Digitrax makes a stationary decoder (DS44) that can control 4 slow motion switch machines, so two of those would take care of everything. Each one costs $40, so $80 for the pair. I've tried controlling switches from a throttle, and it is inconvenient to say the least. If you have a bunch of ground throws as well, I would suggest using switches instead of decoders.
DCC greatly simplifies layout wiring, and will save you a great deal of time compared to block control. On a layout your size, the cost will be about the same (or slightly less) than wiring for DC blocks, but will save you a lot of wiring.
S&S
Modeling the Pennsy and loving it!
Here's my suggestion..
Try a MRC Tech 6 and handheld throttle-should be around $130.00 street..With the hand held throttle you can run up to 6 decoder equipped locomotives.This isn't much of a investment like a regular DCC starter system would be and it will get your feet wet..
If you don't like DCC then you can still use the Tech 6 and hand held throttle in the DC mode.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
If there is one area where DC has the advantage over DCC, it is cost.
For DCC, you need to purchase a command station, booster, and throttle.
Then, you either have to install your own decoders or purchase locomotives with decoders installed.
If you want sound, that is an additional expense.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hey Guys
I sense there is an underlying question that is not being answered here.
Do you want to run DCC, or run a computer automated layout?
If you have 4 locomotives they need to be DCC equipped. Each reversing loop needs a reversing module. $40 bus + - A DCC system putting out 3 amps or so will run the locos and several lighted cars plus have extra capacity. If you need more than one operator you need a cab for each. Now if you want to use DCC to throw all the turnouts, it gets a little more expensive.
Good luck and have fun.
Lee
Wait for the new stuff Radio control battery powered!
Yeah size of layout has little correlation to how much equipment you need. 2-3 locos is the most you'd ever run? You could build a HUGE layout and stiull run just that many locos with a basic starter set liek the Zephyr Xtra plus a few AR1's for the reverse loops.
It's easy to get carried away and think you need 10's of amps to run the layotu - you don't. I've had 8 locos, 4 with sound, running on my old Zephyr, and the Xtra ahs even more power.
If the layout is REALLY huge, where the power wires will have to run hundreds of feet, it might be cheaper to add boosters and use smaller wire to prevent voltage drop than to get really heavy wire, but if you locate the amin system wisely, you cna have a pretty big layotu and still have no wires more than 50-75 feet, and with only 2-3 locos ever running, #12 wire is plenty.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Nothing to it really. DCC is a different power pack.
It offers more individual locomotive control. How about simplifying the idea for the layout? No need to raise your own blood pressure over a layout in the planning stages, or worrying about how on earth you'll power it.
I suggest jumping in. It's a hobby, after all, so have fun and learn something new!
SmithSr Nothing to it really. DCC is a different power pack. It offers more individual locomotive control. How about simplifying the idea for the layout? No need to raise your own blood pressure over a layout in the planning stages, or worrying about how on earth you'll power it. I suggest jumping in. It's a hobby, after all, so have fun and learn something new!
There is some other unanswered questions.One should never jump right into anything..He may end up in deep doo.
I took the plunge and set the DCC up as a second cab. First cab is a DC power pack, so I can still run my DC locos. Got two DCC locos with sound and when I want to run them, set all tracks except the track the DC locos are stored on, to cab 2 and away they go. Makes it so I didn't have to convert all at once. My NCE starter set was under $200 and there are new DCC with sound locos on ebay for around $100, some of the price depends on brand and what era you are modeling.
Both DCC locos have dual mode decoders, so I can run them DC if I want to. Haven't done it since the first day I had them. Takes quite a bit of throttle.
With this set up I can even run one loco on the main and do some switching with another (one in each mode), just as if I had two DC cabs.
Have fun,
Richard
Hi taylor 67!
If you only plan on running one train at a time, then DC will work great. In fact, with a little planning and proper wiring, DC can run several trains at once. However, if you want to run more than one train on your 60 ft. of track, you will have to pay fairly close attention to which power blocks your trains are in, and you might not be able to run two trains in close proximity to each other. Depending on your track plan, 60 ft. of track might not provide a lot of separation between locomotives! Setting up power blocks might be a challenge, but again, a lot depends on your track plan. (If you were to post your track plan here, you would get a lot of much more accurate advise than I can offer.)
On the other hand, DCC will allow you to run two (or more) locomotives in very close proximity so you can maximize the usage of your track regardless of the length, and in doing so, you can increase your model railroading pleasure.
The issue you raise about cost is obviously very legitimate. However, I get the feeling that your choice of reference material may have oversold you on the cost of DCC. You can get very high quality starter sets from several manufacturers without spending a fortune. I have an NCE Power Cab system. It comes with its own power supply and the booster is built in. It retails for somewhere around $170.00, maybe less. It allows you to operate at least 3 sound equipped locomotives. It is easily expandable to 5 amps should you need that sort of power when your layout expands, but until that happens the basic Power Cab will do you just fine.
You mention reversing loops so you will have to invest some money in those circuits too, but you are not talking huge dollars. Indeed, the reversing loop modules might be the best part of the whole layout because you won't have to be constantly on the lookout for switching polarity as your trains go around the loops like you would have to with basic DC.
DCC also offers the opportunity for sound equipped locomotives. Yes, there is a cost, but I really like my sound equipped locomotives. For me, sound is a huge part of my enjoyment of the hobby.
DCC does have its challenges! There is definitely a learning curve. Some sound decoders are relatively easy to program (Loksound). Some are not quite so easy at first (QSI, Tsumami). All of them can be figured out, and for some of us, that is half the fun.
Bottom line! Dive in now! You will likely do it anyhow, eventually! (Can you tell that I am biased towards DCC?).
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
BRAKIE SmithSr Nothing to it really. DCC is a different power pack. It offers more individual locomotive control. How about simplifying the idea for the layout? No need to raise your own blood pressure over a layout in the planning stages, or worrying about how on earth you'll power it. I suggest jumping in. It's a hobby, after all, so have fun and learn something new! There is some other unanswered questions.One should never jump right into anything..He may end up in deep doo.
Some really great thoughts and suggestions in here.
It's interesting this topic came up as I have posted an article about my feelings on DCC on free-mo.org
http://free-mo.org/node/304
Basically, I appreciate the raw simple nature of DC. It's easy to grasp quickly and it won't cost a lot to get going. Consisting is no harder then setting locomotives together.Running one or 2 trains is really a simple matter.
DCC is great if you want to have absolute control be able to make things function together that would never work together easily under DC.
Automation is possible with both DC and DCC with CMRI and JMRI respectively.
Feel free to read my article. Keep in mind it is my own opinion after 15 years using it in a modular (lot's of setting up and breaking down the DCC system) Most of it doesn't really apply to a permanent layout as you just have to go through the pain of setup once
Chris
SmithSrDon't keep waiting & debating. Jump in!
And if his turnouts isn't DCC friendly then he needs to spend more to replace those turnouts.
Never jump into anything foolishly without looking first even in a hobby..I done that myself several times over the years and it cost far more then then end results was worth..If I had the money I wasted in this hobby by "jumping in" I could probably build a large layout building.
BRAKIE SmithSrDon't keep waiting & debating. Jump in! And if his turnouts isn't DCC friendly then he needs to spend more to replace those turnouts. Never jump into anything foolishly without looking first even in a hobby..I done that myself several times over the years and it cost far more then then end results was worth..If I had the money I wasted in this hobby by "jumping in" I could probably build a large layout building.
And let's not forget that the OP is highly budget conscious and plans to start with a small layout. DC will serve his needs just fine and he can always move up to DCC later.
One thing that's sometimes not clear about DCC: You don't have to use it for everything. Turnouts and turntables, in particular, can still be run with old-fashioned toggle switches if you prefer, or you can run some one way, some the other.
When I started my layout 7 or 8 years ago, I planned to use DC for a while and then transition to DCC. A small financial windfall allowed me to buy a DCC system, though, and from the moment I ran my first DCC train, I was hooked. I was an 8-year-old kid again. I put my DC power pack away, and it was years before I took it out again. It now runs my DC-driven turntable.
I love DCC, and most who try it like it, too.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
A few thoughts:
Based on the OP's information, it seems to come down to this, how many locos will actually be MOVING at one time?
AND, Does he want sound?
More than two locos, yes to sound, DCC would be better. Two or less locos and no sound, DC would cost way less and be generally easy to impliment and operate.
DCC does have big advantages on small layouts with multiple trains running at once. As layout size increases relative to the number of trains running, those advanages deminish.
Consisting - this is a lot of work with DCC, making sure locos run well together, setting CV's, doing speed tests etc. Depending on the specific locos and goals, it is often easier in DC than DCC. If I install the same decoder, with the same CV settings in two identical locos, there is no guaranty they will run the same speed. But two identical locos with no decoders (not locos with dual mode decoders) with almost always run well together on DC.
AND, with the current methods and standards in use by many of the manufacturers today, a great number of totally different locos run well enough together on DC to be easily double headed. Please ask me how I know and how long the list is of different locos that run well together on my layout.
If I was building a layout of the size the OP describes, I would have no interest in moving more than one "train" at a time - DC would be fine for me.
Sheldon
rrebell Wait for the new stuff Radio control battery powered!
You're really fixated on that, aren't you?
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Joe Staten Island West
I have never met a turnout that was a problem for my Digitrax DCC system. It does not matter to the turnout whether the electricity flowing through it is DC or square wave AC. A short circuit is a short circuit in either case.
Several people have suggested that the OP can get into DCC without spending "a small fortune". I would just like to point out that "a small fortune" means different things to different people or even the same people at different times of their lives..
Dave,We have several such turnouts at the club-not DCC compatible and they work fine in DC.
There are older switches out there and still being sold.
The OP's budget is why I suggested the MRC T6 and handheld throttle-probably the best kept secrete in the hobby for the average home layout solo DCC operation...
Of course for very basic DCC operation Bachmann's E-Z DCC can be had for less then $100.00 street.
DCC is available for those that are budget restricted.
A few more thoughts:
Without features like wireless throttles and/or multiple cabs, or cabs that control sound and other functions, what is the point of DCC?
I use layout based wireless DC throttles and consider that single feature, walking around with the throttle, way more important than any of the other features of DCC.
I don't use onboard sound, so controlling sound is not needed. My wireless throttles work well and don't require me to install decoders in my 130 locos - work I can do, but really don't like.
I agree with Larry that if one wants a budget means to control sound equiped locos, the Tech 6 is a good option.
DISCLAIMER - I personally will not, and have no interest in, actually operating two trains at once. From where I sit, each train needs an operator - OR, it needs to be running in "display" mode on an isolated loop of track.
But being able to stay close to the loco, with a hand held throttle (preferably wireless), for switching, coupling and such, even on a small layout, is a feature I would never give up.
I agree with Larry that if one wants a budget means to control sound equipped locos, the Tech 6 is a good option.
------------------------------------
It will indeed control one DCC/sound equipped locomotive with access to all CVs and rule 17 lighting.
Add the T6 hand held throttle you can control up to six locomotives,rule 17 plus access to all CVs..
Another cute little feature you can consist DC engines by using the start and top voltage programing on the T6 plus you can sit acceleration and deceleration momentum.You can have walk around by usung the hand held in DC mode.
This is probably the best DC power pack ever made and a "poor man's" DCC system all wrap into one..
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Without features like wireless throttles and/or multiple cabs, or cabs that control sound and other functions, what is the point of DCC?
I've found that DCC has a particular advantage for smaller layouts, like the original Phase 1 of my own. But, it does involve running multiple trains, either by myself or with another operator.
A small layout is very difficult to "block" effectively. The blocks would need to be so small that one would spend all his time flipping toggles from one to the next. DCC eliminates this issue. I still divide my layout into sections isolated for power-control purposes, but that's operationally transparent.
I like to run a couple of trains around by themselves, looping while I actively run a switching operation. It would be impossible to manage this if I had to worry about blocks every time I took the main for a short run. Of course, this is the way I run my layout, but it's one of the reasons I prefer DCC.
When I was a teenager, I had a layout almost as large as the one I've got now. Back then, we didn't even have computers, let alone DCC, and I was perfectly happy running on DC.
MisterBeasleysmall layout is very difficult to "block" effectively. The blocks would need to be so small that one would spend all his time flipping toggles from one to the next.
Well sir,that has been a issue for years-over blocking small layouts that DCC has cured for multi train operation..
However,a small layout needn't be operated like a major division so,why the block overkill?
To my mind(as warp as it is) operation should be tailored to fit the layout size.
A example would be operate (say) a 4x8' layout as a branch line or short line..This would include small bedroom size around the wall layouts as well.
MisterBeasley ATLANTIC CENTRAL Without features like wireless throttles and/or multiple cabs, or cabs that control sound and other functions, what is the point of DCC? I've found that DCC has a particular advantage for smaller layouts, like the original Phase 1 of my own. But, it does involve running multiple trains, either by myself or with another operator. A small layout is very difficult to "block" effectively. The blocks would need to be so small that one would spend all his time flipping toggles from one to the next. DCC eliminates this issue. I still divide my layout into sections isolated for power-control purposes, but that's operationally transparent. I like to run a couple of trains around by themselves, looping while I actively run a switching operation. It would be impossible to manage this if I had to worry about blocks every time I took the main for a short run. Of course, this is the way I run my layout, but it's one of the reasons I prefer DCC. When I was a teenager, I had a layout almost as large as the one I've got now. Back then, we didn't even have computers, let alone DCC, and I was perfectly happy running on DC.
I agree completely, in fact I pointed out in my first post in this thread that DCC is especially well suited to small layouts with multiple trains.
BUT, I would not want to do that from fixed, or even tethered throttles, by myself or with another operator.
BUT, if your "loop" train is on a "loop", is the other train you are running on that same trackage? Must be a big enough loop to allow time for the train you are actually "operating" to "get in, and get out", turnout operation included?
That's what I will not do. My layout is structured like most real life industrial/urban railroads. Mainline and industries are seperate. Trains can "serve" most of the indiustries from a "belt line" and return to the yard without ever "fouling the main". So trains looping the main, attended or unattended are not effected by switching operations.
I use DCC on a number of friends layouts, but do not care for any of the multi train features - i.e. dual knobs, stacking, etc.
And again, I consider wireless to be the single most improtant advancement in model train control - DCC or DC.
And, as a side note, DC multi train operation does not always require/use "toggle switches". I have eight cabs and can run eight trains simutaneously. And while I have an electrical system for directing cab power to individual track sections, I don't have one "block toggle".
But, agreed, small layouts present dificult power distribution issues for multi train DC operation.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL ... Consisting - this is a lot of work with DCC, making sure locos run well together, setting CV's, doing speed tests etc. Depending on the specific locos and goals, it is often easier in DC than DCC. If I install the same decoder, with the same CV settings in two identical locos, there is no guaranty they will run the same speed. But two identical locos with no decoders (not locos with dual mode decoders) with almost always run well together on DC. ...
...
It has been my experience that two locos that run fine together on DC will also run fine together on DCC with the same decoder without speed matching. I often see people list the difficulties of speed matching as one of the disadvantages of DCC. First of all, I do not find it difficult, but even for those that do, it is not something that you have to do, it is only necessary if you want to run engines together that normally would not run well together. It is at least an option you have with DCC that you do not have with DC unless you want to get into adding resistors or diodes or get into re-gearing. Honestly, I dom't see how speed-matchinig could be listed as anything but an advantange for DCC.