Ok, I am dreaming here.
But, I just read an article in the May issue of MR magazine about using new technologies to shape the future of the hobby.
Why not a turnout with a built in mechanism to throw the point rails using wi-fi technology.
Think about it. No tortoises or servos or manual ground throws. No third party stationary decoders. No drilling holes through the layout. No labor intensive wiring under the layout.
Why can't this be done?
Rich
Alton Junction
How many modelers do you think use Wi-Fi anything on their layouts? We don't have Internet access at our clubhouse, I don't have any Wi-Fi devices at home, and I don't foresee ever having any at either location.
The main sticking point I can see with this technology is interference between operators. For example, if I want to change a particular turnout, how do I select only it and not wind up throwing all the turnouts within range.
cacole How many modelers do you think use Wi-Fi anything on their layouts? We don't have Internet access at our clubhouse, I don't have any Wi-Fi devices at home, and I don't foresee ever having any at either location.
Spoil sport !
Is good idea. Now the Chinese can run your trains for you too!
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
BroadwayLion Is good idea. Now the Chinese can run your trains for you too! ROAR
richhotrain getting mad. Him not happy with responses so far.
Him beginning to hunger for LION meat.
First him have to catch LION.
TORTOISE is easier to catch, makes good soup, comes with own bowl.
But since you want a serious answer: Price. Flexibility. It would be one thing to make a control to interface between your Tortoise and your Wi-Fi device and quite another to embed it into a finished product like a switch, which will still need some sort of interface to convert electrical impulses into mechanical action.
Besides, LION has not any Wi-Fi. We could have wi-fi here, but the Abbot will not hear of it, so we still pull cat-6 cable with us wherever we want to go. But... LION has a small box of cat-6 that is too short for building runs. Him will have to use it up on the layout. Imagine that!
Hi Rich,
Essentially, what you're thinking of already exists for DCC. Bachmann makes E-Z Command turnouts with the switch machine and stationary decoder built into the roadbed. However, most folks who build a permanent layout move on to other track systems that are more realistic and don't come with the molded roadbed. That makes it all but impossible to build the switch machine, let alone a decoder or wi-fi receiver into the switch. Circuitron has thought of the next best thing. For years they have cataloged the Smail switch machine; a Tortoise with a built in NCC stationary decoder. Two wires from track power bus and you're good to go. Unfortunately, they have cataloged the item for about seven years without actually making any. Most folks in HO seem too wedded to the concept of saving a dollar by spending an hour wiring separate motor and decoders. So, the next closest thing is the Tortoise/Hare combo. It's same idea as the Smail in two pieces and just as easy to wire. So, as you can see, there are good options little or no wiring in DCC.
The biggest impediment to using wi-fi for direct communications is cost. Wi-fi receivers are still a good deal more expensive than DCC stationary decoders, so the market sticks with what's easiest to sell. Personally, I think it is almost inevitable that DCC itself will shift to wi-fi as a transmission protocol. Ring Engineering has already moved in that direction with their direct radio system using the 2.4GHz band. The advantages of wi-fi including increased communication speed, 2-way coms, integration with mobile devices (smart phones and tables) and PC control, are too great to avoid.
IIRC, there was a company a few years ago that had very small decoder/motors built into Walthers/Shinohara turnouts(or at least under them). You basically cut a notch in your roadbed and installed them. They got their power from the track and control was via your DCC throttle. No long wire runs or install adjustment!
The problems were:
I have not seen ads for that company for a while, but they are still around(cypress engineering).
As far as using Wi-Fi - You still have to provide power wiring(unless you are going to use 'expensive' DCC track power).
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Price theoretically could be cheaper than DCC, given the ubiquitous nature of WiFi and WiFi chipsets these days. Most of what goes into DCC decoders is maybe an offshoot of other technologies with broader appeal, like cell phones, but it's not EXACTLY the same, there aren't off the shelf components being used. 1.5-2 amp PWM H bridge drivers aren't common is hugely mass produced consumer electronics, for example. Now, if a control system was built using standard off the shelf WiFi chipsets that are used in pretty much everything these days - there's be components being used that are made and purchased int he millions, not thousands. Cost per chip should be significantly less than something that has little use outside a niche in a niche hobby (much as we would like to beleive EVERYONE is a model railroader, in truth the percentage of overall population is quite small, especially compared to some consumer electronics like cell phones). There are a few other technologies that are showing promise for short range RF communications and self-defining networks, like Zigbee.
Just because some devices talk to each other via WiFi protocols does NOT mean they are connected to the internet. Even when running WiThrottle with JMRI to run my trains at home, the WiThrottle interface is not exposed outside my local network - the firewall blocks public internet connections to the JMRI computer. Only people already on my WiFi network or plugged in to my ethernet can access it. I can CHOSE to open it up if I wish - in fact I had an idea to put a cam on my train, feeding the signal back and then using my iPad, with its bigger display, to show the video view plus the WiThrottle controls, so I cna totally drive the train with just the engineer's eye view. This would work great on our club layout which is fully signaled. I'm sure it's been done already. You could drive remotely across the internet, or just locally. Follow the signal indications, and contact the DS over your radio.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
jrbernierYou still have to provide power wiring(unless you are going to use 'expensive' DCC track power).
I wired standard components into an electrical (non-electronic) system that simulates mechanical interlocking of six signals and as many point throwing devices, That cost me a handful of 'dozen for a buck' diodes. I would have needed the semaphore and point actuators in any event, and the control power connections are made with a hot probe and studs on the schematic diagram. Power is a 5 amp 12.6VAC filament transformer.
The alternative (which I considered) would have involved building the mechanical interlocking frame and activating the points and semaphores with cables. It would have been cheaper, but a lot fussier and more time consuming to assemble.
In my experience, aligning points and changing semaphore indications involved human muscles moving big chunks of iron. No pushbutton remotes running anything but TV sets in mid-1960s Japan. As of this moment, my house isn't equipped with Wi-Fi and I don't own anything more advanced than a dumb (and cheap) wireless telephone. My computer communicates by cable. If this puts me somewhat behind the crest of the wave, so be it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
To All,
I'd rather be behind the crest of the wave then,in front of it,, After all, I'm not a surfer, by a long shot..
Cheers,
Frank
I started with DCC back when base line decoders were $50. Now that they are $20 and have ten times the features, I'm sticking there. Let some one else further the hobby with their wallet.
Actually, since the track will need to be powered and the turnout motor will also need power it seems that the controller for that turnout could easily get its commands via rail as it can now. My techie friends tell me that no matter how good WIFI is, a wired connection is always faster
Martin Myers
Hmmm, seems like there is little enthusiasm for this idea.
What appeals to me about it is the absence of any need to drill holes in the layout or have to get under the layout to do the wiring. No stuff on the layout surface like above the table mechanisms or manual ground throws.
Plus the sheer cost. I install a Atlas Custom Line turnout ($15) plus a Tortoise ($18) plus a DPDT ($5) on the control panel. If you add a stationary decoder, that is another $12.
Oh well.
True but misleading. Yes, wire connection offer a greater bandwidth and thus potential for higher throughputs than you get over an RF connection. All else being equal though there is no difference. Sure there's 10Gbps wired connections becoming fairly common now, and nothing close yet in wireless, but a 10Mbps connection is a 10Mbps connection regardless of transmission medium (outside of perhaps propogation delay).
Techie banter aside, it's all quite meaningless for railroad use, real or model - consider how CTC machines transmit SERIALLY over lines that were originally used for telegraph use. In the model world - Digitrax Loconet is an od 16677 bits per second, and NCE recommends using 9600 bps for the serial connection to the command station. And that stuff is PLENTY fast enough, even for large layouts. Various WiFi standards are WAY faster than we need to control trains - but it's not about the speeds, it's about using common off the shelf bits that are manufacturered in the millions so as to keep costs down. Even the original high price of DCC was usually less than the proprietary command control systems - because here was a standard used across multiple manufacturers rather than some custom bit that each vendor sold maybe 100's of if they were lucky.
I'm not switching away from DCC any time soon, but it's nice to see innovation is not yet dead. Combine the WiFi based controls with on-board batteries and most track will not have to be powered. Want to model a rusty old siding that sees 1 car a week, if that? You would be able to. Who knows, add wireless power transmission and you won't have to run wires to those switch motors. Dead frogs? No problem, because of the batteries. Reverse loops? Also a non-issue. I would rather see the current attempts at wireless like Railpro move forward using standardized WiFi protocols and chipsets, with some standard developed for the actual data stream ala DCC, making it a true multi-vendor standard like DCC.
Rich, have you ever operated on a layout where the turnouts are controlled by stationary decoders and operated from the DCC throttle? I have, it's not all that great a situation in my view. The one guy I know with that setup is now adding little control panels near each group of turnouts (interlocking) because knowing the numbers and entering them into the Digitrax throttle proved to be too much of a pain for most operators.
I use a simple relay circuit to operate whole routes of tortise machines through interlockings which allows them to be controlled by lighted pushbuttons in multimple locations - locally and on a CTC panel. The pushbuttons light up on the track diagram to show the route.
One relay per turnout at about $3 each, less expensive than stationary decoders with just as much flexibility in design and function.
Years ago, long before DCC, I designed a plug in throttle that would also operate 100 turnouts via a matrix system - never actually built it - glad I didn't after using the Digitrax set up, it would not have been any better.
CTC and/or track side turnout controls seem to work best, despite their installation issues.
I also use home made ground throws for all turnouts that would be hand thrown on the prototype. Only tower controlled turnouts are electrified on my layout.
My ground thows don't look relistic, but the work well - they are just sub mini slide switches and music wire - I need the electrical contacts for frogs and power routing.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, have you ever operated on a layout where the turnouts are controlled by stationary decoders and operated from the DCC throttle? I have, it's not all that great a situation in my view. The one guy I know with that setup is now adding little control panels near each group of turnouts (interlocking) because knowing the numbers and entering them into the Digitrax throttle proved to be too much of a pain for most operators.
Sheldon, no I never have, and for the reasons that you suggest.
Since I am fantasizing about all of this, what I want is a throttle that you aim at a turnout like a remote aimed at a television set. Aim and press a button. Voila, the point rails are thrown.
As much as I love Tortoises and have more than 60 on my layout, I dread the thought of cutting 60 holes on my Dream Layout and installing 60 Tortoises plus the wiring.
richhotrainHmmm, seems like there is little enthusiasm for this idea.
Rightfully so. where would you put the switch motor itself? You'd still need a hole in the benchwork or some kind of box on the layout surface.
And you know that WiFi radios are not free, right? And you're going to juggle the DCC controller and the separate WiFi controller for the turnouts?
richhotrainPlus the sheer cost. I install a Atlas Custom Line turnout ($15) plus a Tortoise ($18) plus a DPDT ($5) on the control panel. If you add a stationary decoder, that is another $12.
You really must like to overpay. Tortoises in bulk are more like 12 or 13 bucks each street price, an 8-way decoder like the NCE Switch-8 is about 6-8 bucks per switch motor.
Tony's Train Exchange has a special right now for a dozen Hare stationary decoder /Tortoise combos purchased together at only about $13.50 each.
How much cheaper do you think a low volume specialized WiFi model railroad product would be?
alco_fan richhotrainPlus the sheer cost. I install a Atlas Custom Line turnout ($15) plus a Tortoise ($18) plus a DPDT ($5) on the control panel. If you add a stationary decoder, that is another $12. You really must like to overpay. Tortoises in bulk are more like 12 or 13 bucks each street price, an 8-way decoder like the NCE Switch-8 is about 6-8 bucks per switch motor. Tony's Train Exchange has a special right now for a dozen Hare stationary decoder /Tortoise combos purchased together at only about $13.50 each.
You really must like to overpay. Tortoises in bulk are more like 12 or 13 bucks each street price, an 8-way decoder like the NCE Switch-8 is about 6-8 bucks per switch motor. Tony's Train Exchange has a special right now for a dozen Hare stationary decoder /Tortoise combos purchased together at only about $13.50 each.
LOL
I knew someone would raise this issue. I was just using retail prices to make a point.
alco_fan richhotrainHmmm, seems like there is little enthusiasm for this idea. Rightfully so. where would you put the switch motor itself? You'd still need a hole in the benchwork or some kind of box on the layout surface. And you know that WiFi radios are not free, right? And you're going to juggle the DCC controller and the separate WiFi controller for the turnouts?
Hey, I said I was fantasizing.
With all of this miniaturization, just develop a very very tiny motor.
richhotrainI was just using retail prices to make a point.
Why, when nobody pays retail?
If your basic point is that your magic solution would be way cheaper, join us in the real world and explain how.
alco_fan richhotrainI was just using retail prices to make a point. Why, when nobody pays retail?
Just to make a point.
Besides, some people do pay retail.
I have a LHS that does not discount. When I want something bad enough, and I don't want to wait, even I sometimes pay retail.
alco_fan richhotrainI was just using retail prices to make a point. Why, when nobody pays retail? If your basic point is that your magic solution would be way cheaper, join us in the real world and explain how.
richhotrainMy basic point is wanting a wireless turnout.
Which exists now with DCC. Your wish has been granted.
alco_fan richhotrainMy basic point is wanting a wireless turnout. Which exists now with DCC. Your wish has been granted.
Can you aim the throttle at it and push a button to turn the point rails?
richhotrainCan you aim the throttle at it and push a button to turn the point rails?
It is the same as it would be for WiFi. You press something on the controller and the switch points move.
WiFi cannot be "aimed", Dr. Marconi. You would need macros or something similar to be sure you only changed the one switch you wanted to change. Just like DCC.
alco_fan richhotrainCan you aim the throttle at it and push a button to turn the point rails? It is the same as it would be for WiFi. You press something on the controller and the switch points move. WiFi cannot be "aimed", Dr. Marconi.
WiFi cannot be "aimed", Dr. Marconi.
You may call me Guglielmo.
richhotrainYou may call me Guglielmo.
I will add that to my list of things i call you.
alco_fan richhotrainYou may call me Guglielmo. I will add that to my list of things i call you.
alco fan, are you having a bad day?
richhotrainalco fan, are you having a bad day?
No worse than usual, thanks for asking.
I should have added a smilie to my previous post, I did mean it tongue in cheek
I admit that I never get used to the forum concept of wild and pointless speculation on impractical ideas that go on and on with no appreciation of reality. My bad.
Have a nice day in Fantasyland and I will not intrude with any more reality.