What is in the future for those of us who still use DC only? I just started a new layout, digging out my collection of 30+ years, but it's getting tough to find stuff in plain vanilla DC. What are my chances??
shyguy6041- Welcome to trains.com!
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
Delaware and Hudson Virtual Museum (DHVM), Railroad Adventures (RRAdventures)
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Most all locomotives released today are sold as either DC only (DCC capable) or DCC and Sound. So march happily into the future building and using your DC layout. Heck, you can even buy a DCC sound loco, tear out the sound decoder and speaker, re-wire for DCC and then sell the decoder and speaker.
If you are having a hard time finding DC at your local hobby shop, just ask, because there is no shortage of DC only being produced.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
shyguy,
DC will be around (and should be) for many years to come. I see plenty of locomotives at my LHS or online that are "plain vanilla". Sometimes I may actually prefer buying a DC locomotive and converting it to DCC or DCC w/sound.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I am a diehard DCC fan, but even I don't see the demise of DC locomotives all the way out to the horizon. Too many people either want straight DC/vanilla or don't want the sound/DCC package included in an otherwise nifty gotta-have. And, as the others infer, nothing will ever preclude a buyer from ripping out what comes from the factory in the way of DCC and converting a mechanical drive to what works best for him. I think you should get a good sleep tonight.
Someday only Sheldon will be running in DC.
Speaking of Sheldon, where is he?
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Someday only Sheldon will be running in DC. Speaking of Sheldon, where is he? Rich
Writing a book called "The World according to Sheldon"
If you don't buy one he will send you one for free and force you to read it.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I don't see the demise of DC any time soon since DCC/Sound locomotives can be ran in either mode.
Use a MRC Tech 6 and you can enjoy all the thrills of sound and set some CVs! I love mine.
I don't know of any decoder that isn't duel mode.
Build your DC layout.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Breaking News !
richhotrain Breaking News !
If Sheldon ever abandons DC it would be for something superior to DCC like battery powered direct radio - until that technolgy is perfected - don't hold your breath.
As for BLI, I have nine of their locos, but the prospect for any more is slim - unless they actually come out with something I want AND they are sold at 55% off in the next BLI cash raising campain.
To the OP,
Remember that many non sound, DCC locos like Bachmann are actually easily converted back to pure DC. In the case of many Bachmann locos that means just unpluging an inexpensive decoder and pluging in jumpers they provide with the loco.
Then you can sell the decoder on ebay - that's what I do.
Sheldon
BRAKIE I don't see the demise of DC any time soon since DCC/Sound locomotives can be ran in either mode. Use a MRC Tech 6 and you can enjoy all the thrills of sound and set some CVs! I love mine. I don't know of any decoder that isn't duel mode. Build your DC layout.
Larry, dual mode decoders are a joke, they simply run poorly on many GOOD DC throttles.
But I do agree the MRC throttle is a good choice for those who want sound on a small or basic layout.
shyguy6041 but it's getting tough to find stuff in plain vanilla DC.
but it's getting tough to find stuff in plain vanilla DC.
OP, this is the comment I find odd, because it is not my assessment of the market at all. I am curious as to what led you to that observation?
DC will be around. In speaking with several new layout builders they almost all want DC to start with a possibility (or not) of going to DCC in the future. I personally find for those new to the hobby that working with DC locos, lights, controls, etc helps build a foundation in electrical/electronics knowledge which helps them in the future.
Richard
Like other answers DC is probably here for some time.Bachmann makes DC only locos both steam and diesel. Some people will knock this brand, but they have gotten better. I have 2 Bachmann locos, 1 a 2-8-0 Connie and a GP30. Both run great and both come as DC. Check out their web site Bachmann trains .com And remember there are 3 types of DCC : DCC ready which is a DC loco with a plug for a DCC decoder, DCC with no sound decoder, and DCC sound decoder equiped.Any new DCC loco will run on straight DC. Have fun!!!! Joe
I think DC engines will be around for a while. For the last 10 years or so pretty much every DC engine made has been "DCC Ready", usually with some provision to easily add a decoder. I don't think that will change soon, both because of some folks wanting to stick with DC layouts, and partly because some folks want to buy an engine and install the decoder of their choice. (I suspect this is particularly true for people who like sound engines, as for some of us it's hard to come up with the money for a sound equipped engine in one lump sum. Easier to buy a DCC-ready engine and install sound later.)
DC will stay around until DCC systems are as cheap as a DC throttle. Probably even longer - they continue to be the entry-level systems - how many people do you know who will buy a DCC system for a kid's first layout? Sheldon, I operate in dual mode now; I have two eras (steam and diesel) and have converted my diesel to DCC. My point in bringing that up is that a high-quality fully filtered load-compensating pure DC throttle still gives my locos the best performance ... but with the DCC it sure is nice to be able to do away with the block controls.
steamnut DC will stay around until DCC systems are as cheap as a DC throttle. Probably even longer - they continue to be the entry-level systems - how many people do you know who will buy a DCC system for a kid's first layout? Sheldon, I operate in dual mode now; I have two eras (steam and diesel) and have converted my diesel to DCC. My point in bringing that up is that a high-quality fully filtered load-compensating pure DC throttle still gives my locos the best performance ... but with the DCC it sure is nice to be able to do away with the block controls.
I don't use traditional "block contyrol". I use a form of advanced cab control that uses a dispatcher and/or allows for simple walk around cab assignment with Aristo Train Engineer wireless radio throttles.
The system I use is related to MZL control developed by Ed Ravenscroft and incorperates several other advanced cab control concepts developed by Paul Mallery.
No toggles, just few pushbuttons. When there is a dispatcher, operation is just like DCC for the engineers.
Turnout routes, cab assignments and CTC signaling is all intergrated into the control system.
The dispatcher sets a route and gives the engineer a green light, all the rest happens automaticly.
Without a dispatcher, engineers set turnouts and assign throttles as they walk around, using local tower panels with redundant push buttons and route control.
shyguy6041 What is in the future for those of us who still use DC only? I just started a new layout, digging out my collection of 30+ years, but it's getting tough to find stuff in plain vanilla DC. What are my chances??
I think the future is what you decide to make of it.
I'm no electronics expert, but its my understanding that all locomotive motors are DC motors. Its just that some have a decoder plopped on top to interpret a digital signal that's sent through the rails and then modulates the motor accordingly.
I think of locomotive control choices similar to like choosing to buy a car. Many cars start with the same basic mechanicals, then add features to enhance performance or convenience. A plain DC only locomotive is like a stripped down car. Then comes DCC ready circuit boards, then DCC decoders, and finally decoders with sound. Buy your options for what suits you.
Even with Sheldon's future, battery operated locomotives, I think the the basic motor would still be a basic DC motor.
All you have to do is strip off all of the optional features and wire the truck pickup wires to the motor wires correctly and your DC power pack will power any locomotive that is being manufactured now or ever has been manufactured in the past (within reason).
Somebody please correct me if I generalized wrongly.
- Douglas
Doughless shyguy6041: What is in the future for those of us who still use DC only? I just started a new layout, digging out my collection of 30+ years, but it's getting tough to find stuff in plain vanilla DC. What are my chances?? I think the future is what you decide to make of it. I'm no electronics expert, but its my understanding that all locomotive motors are DC motors. Its just that some have a decoder plopped on top to interpret a digital signal that's sent through the rails and then modulates the motor accordingly. I think of locomotive control choices similar to like choosing to buy a car. Many cars start with the same basic mechanicals, then add features to enhance performance or convenience. A plain DC only locomotive is like a stripped down car. Then comes DCC ready circuit boards, then DCC decoders, and finally decoders with sound. Buy your options for what suits you. Even with Sheldon's future, battery operated locomotives, I think the the basic motor would still be a basic DC motor. All you have to do is strip off all of the optional features and wire the truck pickup wires to the motor wires correctly and your DC power pack will power any locomotive that is being manufactured now or ever has been manufactured in the past (within reason). Somebody please correct me if I generalized wrongly.
shyguy6041: What is in the future for those of us who still use DC only? I just started a new layout, digging out my collection of 30+ years, but it's getting tough to find stuff in plain vanilla DC. What are my chances??
You are correct, they all have DC motors and can be "stripped down", but not many people are going to pay the $100 extra premium of a DCC sound loco just to rip all that out. I know I won't.
I have bought DCC sound equiped locos at rock bottom bargin closeout prices and ripped out the DCC/sound.
I do buy "basic" non sound DCC locos lke those offered by Bachmann, and then remove the decoders. But the decoders are so basic that they add very little to the cost of those locos - and in most cases Bachmann even includes bypass jumpers for removing them.
Bachmann set a new idea in motion with their EM-1 - it comes with basic DCC, and is easily convered back to DC. If you want sound, you buy an easily installed "drop in" sound module. This could be the wave of the future especially for larger, more expensive locos.
Fact is, every "survey" that has been done, indicates that DCC has about half the market right now. The other half is still DC.
This is why most of the manufacturers still offer both DCC, generally with sound, and DC locos that are now usually both DCC ready and sound ready.
As others have stated, for various reasons many DCC users like to install their own decoders - they want that stripped down model. As do the non sound DC users.
It is clear that a large precentage of new entrants to the hobby will go DCC, but conversion by existing established modelers seems to have slowed to a near stop.
Meaning, until the rest of us die off, there will be lots of demand for DC for quite a while.
There are a number of direct radio throttles now on the market, and in large scale direct radio with onboard batteries is the prefered setup. Will that come to HO - maybe one day.
Thanks Sheldon.
Another way of stating my generalization is.... Manufacturers will always make DC locomotives. What is uncertain is how many electronics "options" will become standard, and will they continue to offer locomotives that don't have the electronics options as standard equipment...and at what price.
As manufacturer's have consolidated, it is easier for them to keep tabs on each other, and could all choose to go full optioned locomotives only and eliminate the stripped down version at the same time.
Fortunately, I think the secondary market will keep them in check since that will always be an outlet for someone like me to buy the barely used stripped down locomotive if the manufacturer's stop offering them new. To the extent that I buy locomotives that I don't need, I won't buy a new locomotive if my only choice is a fully optioned "Cadillac". They may-as-well keep making Chevy's too and make some money.
Maybe the right way to look at this issue is not whether DC will go away and disappear but rather whether DCC will be the only way to operate a model railroad in the future.
In that instance, every future newbie will have no choice. It will be DCC or nothing.
I don't see that happening because of the sheer cost of DCC, not only the basic command system and power supply but also the decoder and sound system. Unless somebody comes up with a way to enter the hobby and buy a simple DCC power pack for a 4' x 8' layout for under $100, DCC will never be the universal standard. Unless somebody comes up with a way to buy a locomotive for $50 with an embedded decoder, DCC will never be the universal standard.
So, the real question is: will DCC someday be the only way to enter the hobby?
I seriously doubt it.
Stix got it right.
DC will be around a good bit longer as it gives DCC railroaders the choice of their controller and or sound system. Too many sound systems are crummy and placed in great models. A lot of us want to buy a great model and then chose our controller/sound system and not have some manufacturer up the price by jamming in a low bid or low price point controller and sound system. By keeping things DC the DC analog folks are happy as clams and the better DCC and sound folks are able to get a great model and turn it into their dream and not what some manufacturer's idea of what passes for believable sight and sound.
As for those rare manufacturers that get both right, you pay the price, of course, because good sound ain't cheap.
Manufacturers of locomotives, be it steam of diesel need to concentrate on that product alone. Give us good detail, good slow motion crawl with torque for realistic, no jerk, switching and believable starts for real trains. Motor gearing is the issue in a model after looks. There is no need to gear a loco so it can go 120 scale MPH.
Manufacturers of sound controllers need to concentrate on their offerings too and offer controllers keyed to the model range that they are to go in. Next, make the physical size appropriate to fit neatly into those specific model types.
The prize all in one archtype would be Blackstone which is really a Soundtraxx subdivision. While carefully overseeing the offshore construction of only two engines to perfection, they created two different sound controller sets specific to those engines. They really scored on these, their only two offerings in motive power in several years. There is rumor of a third, but no rush. They will get that right too. They focus on quality and it shows in the finished product and its price.
For the normal HO scale modeler, DC will be around quite a while.
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
I think some of the DC folks are exagerating the price of DCC a little bit; when you figure in the cost of buying a couple of dozen DPDT toggle switches to control all the blocks you need, I don't know that a good entry level DCC controller (like a Zephyr) really costs that much more. Plus history shows the price of electronics tends to go down over time, so at some point it may be so little difference that manufacturers just make all engines DCC-equipped, perhaps with an option to add a plug-in sound module (as someone noted Bachmann is doing with their 2-8-8-4 model.)
I'd say the advantages outweigh the costs in any case. It's kinda like a guy I used to know that always bought cars without power steering or power brakes, because it was cheaper that way. I'd rather pay a little extra and have an easier time driving.
As far as new folks, Bachmann does offer some 'starter sets' with DCC controllers and engines. I suspect teens in the hobby would be a bit more likely to go to DCC, since they're so used to using electronic gizmos already.
My guess is that eventually (maybe 20-30 years) DC running will become more and more rare. I'd guess for example it's been 25 years or so since Model Railroader featured an O-scale layout using outside third rail for powering steam and diesel models. Yet at one time that was by far the most common way to build O-scale layouts.
wjstix I think some of the DC folks are exagerating the price of DCC a little bit; when you figure in the cost of buying a couple of dozen DPDT toggle switches to control all the blocks you need, I don't know that a good entry level DCC controller (like a Zephyr) really costs that much more. Plus history shows the price of electronics tends to go down over time, so at some point it may be so little difference that manufacturers just make all engines DCC-equipped, perhaps with an option to add a plug-in sound module (as someone noted Bachmann is doing with their 2-8-8-4 model.) I'd say the advantages outweigh the costs in any case. It's kinda like a guy I used to know that always bought cars without power steering or power brakes, because it was cheaper that way. I'd rather pay a little extra and have an easier time driving. As far as new folks, Bachmann does offer some 'starter sets' with DCC controllers and engines. I suspect teens in the hobby would be a bit more likely to go to DCC, since they're so used to using electronic gizmos already. My guess is that eventually (maybe 20-30 years) DC running will become more and more rare. I'd guess for example it's been 25 years or so since Model Railroader featured an O-scale layout using outside third rail for powering steam and diesel models. Yet at one time that was by far the most common way to build O-scale layouts.
Stix,
The cost of DCC is directly linked to two things - the size and complexity of your layout and the number of locos you need to outfit with decoders.
The other factor is wireless throttles. Personally, I see no point in DCC without wireless throttles. The whole point of DCC is to "be the Engineer" in the most intimate sense - turn the headlights on, ring the bell, blow the horn, do the switching moves while other locos work nearby without needing cab control systems.
On all but the smallest layouts that suggests wireless throttles.
No two layouts are the same, no two layouts will cost the same to outfit with DCC or with any given DC control scheme.
But you tell me, how much would DCC cost me?
I would need 130 non sound decoders, eight wireless throttles, 4-5 reversers, at least two or three boosters.
And that would still not provide the CTC, signaling, turnout control, and other features built into my advanced cab control system that does NOT use toggle switches or rotary switches.
I have eight wireless DC throttles each with seperate 5 amp power supplies - cost $220 each.
I have 20 master track sections who's control infrastructure costs about $100 each.
I have over 100 mainline turnouts with intergrated signal interlocking and one button route control at an infrastructure cost of about $10 each.
My control system provides CTC operation where mainline operators do not have to "flip any toggles", their experaince is just like DCC - walk around with your train and control its speed and direction.
I know most people are not interested in, or willing to learn and build something like I have - BUT I am not willing or interested in going "backwards" giving up signaling or CTC for the other "features" of DCC.
So for me to convert to DCC, I would need the equipment listed above - PLUS the signaling, CTC and turnout infrastructure I already have - double the cost of your view of what DCC costs.
The cost of non sound decoders for all my locos alone is more than the cost of my whole control system.
Yet without DCC I have wireless throttles with pulse width modulation motor control, headlights that come on full brightness before the train moves, 5 amps per train - multi units lashups are no problem, intergrated signaling and CTC, multi location one button route control of turnouts, true interlocking of signals and turnouts, colision avoidance much like prototype ATC, walk around or central dispatch control and more.
And before you go on the "you don't have to convert them all........" rant, the whole purpose of my layout is a specific operating scheme - I have NO shelf queens, all my motive power has a job on the layout.
Don't get me wrong, I use DCC all the time on the layouts of many friends, I recommend DCC to many based on THEIR needs and wants - but DCC can be and is expensive for a medium to large layout and if one wants signaling - that's a whole other story.......
A couple of facts:
Every model that incorporates a permanent magnet motor is DC at heart. All the electronics is icing on that basic DC cupcake and, like cupcake icing, can be removed without damaging the basic mechanism.
Fingers were made before fixed decoders - and switch machines don't need DCC when toggles, pushbuttons or a hot probe can complete their circuits.
The raw materials for DC control systems can be bought at any electronics supply house. The same cannot be said for proprietary DCC microchips.
And now, back to the original question.
I am not a lemming, and I'm not overly concerned about the hobby as a whole or the entry-level concerns of hobbyists unborn. At present, only about 10% of my hobby spending is for hobby shop items (almost as much as I spend for electricity to power the layout room and layout.) I am a lone wolf, I have neither need nor desire to expand my roster just to have new toys and I really don't care which way the river is flowing. I'm quite happy in my little backwater eddy. My layout will be analog DC when I leave the layout room on a stretcher for the morgue. If that presents my estate wth a problem, so be it.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, MZL)
Whether or not you need walk-around has more to do with your layout's design, not DC vs. DCC. I've decided on my current layout to build it a little at a time and (more or less) 'finish' one area before starting benchwork and laying track for the next section; so right now what I have is an L-shaped switching layout temporarily attached to a small oval of track (22"R) that is basically a test-track. I have it set up for infra-red wireless control with a UT-4R which works pretty well. However I find as often as not I just use the Digitrax Zephyr to run trains and do switching with. In time I'll probably add the radio receiver as the layout expands, but it's OK as it is for now. (BTW all my turnouts are either manually controlled or use standard DC from an old power pack.)
Also, re the expense of decoders, most newer folks are going to be either starting with DCC (or buying engines factory-equipped with dual-mode decoders) so won't be facing the challenge some of us "old heads" did when we decided to switch to DCC and looked at converting 30-40-50 engines to DCC.
richhotrain Unless somebody comes up with a way to enter the hobby and buy a simple DCC power pack for a 4' x 8' layout for under $100, DCC will never be the universal standard. Unless somebody comes up with a way to buy a locomotive for $50 with an embedded decoder, DCC will never be the universal standard. So, the real question is: will DCC someday be the only way to enter the hobby? I seriously doubt it.
Unless somebody comes up with a way to enter the hobby and buy a simple DCC power pack for a 4' x 8' layout for under $100, DCC will never be the universal standard. Unless somebody comes up with a way to buy a locomotive for $50 with an embedded decoder, DCC will never be the universal standard.
One thing I've learned in 30+ years of working in the electronics industry (computers specifically) is don't ever underestimate the ability of the industry to make a commodity out of anything currently deemed an extra or an option.
When I started as an EE back in 1980, "serious" personal computers (i.e. IBM PC) were in the $2-3k range before you added options. And we used to laugh at the dreamers who thought that one day a PC would be able to be had for under $500. And now...
If those are your two benchmarks ($100 DCC power pack, $50 DCC loco) for universal adoption, I'm betting those will be met quicker than you (or I) can imagine.
I think it's size of market that's the limiting factor at the moment. It takes a certain amount of R&D for Digitrax et. al. to design, build, market DCC systems. As that market expands, costs will come down. And someone will figure out a way of making the DCC equivalent of that $250 PC. And then there will be no more DC.
Just as there are no more pagers. Or CRT-based B&W televisions. Or pulse-toned phones. Or....
wjstix Whether or not you need walk-around has more to do with your layout's design, not DC vs. DCC. I've decided on my current layout to build it a little at a time and (more or less) 'finish' one area before starting benchwork and laying track for the next section; so right now what I have is an L-shaped switching layout temporarily attached to a small oval of track (22"R) that is basically a test-track. I have it set up for infra-red wireless control with a UT-4R which works pretty well. However I find as often as not I just use the Digitrax Zephyr to run trains and do switching with. In time I'll probably add the radio receiver as the layout expands, but it's OK as it is for now. (BTW all my turnouts are either manually controlled or use standard DC from an old power pack.) Also, re the expense of decoders, most newer folks are going to be either starting with DCC (or buying engines factory-equipped with dual-mode decoders) so won't be facing the challenge some of us "old heads" did when we decided to switch to DCC and looked at converting 30-40-50 engines to DCC.
As to needing/wanting wireless being a function of layout design rather than control system, I agree.
But it could also be said that many simple layouts that negate the need for wireless could often be run with DC very easily. Making sound the biggest argument for DCC in that case.
As to decoder costs - what you say may be true about new people entering the hobby - BUT they will be buying much more expensive locos than what my fleet of 130 powered units cost - my dollar cost average is way under $100 each - and I have good locos, Genesis and Intermountain F units, lots of Proto2000, BLI and Spectrum steam, etc. - there are not too many DCC onboard or DCC/sound onboard locos in that price range - so it STILL is an added expense, and less expensive DC locos are still out there.
So buying and installing decoders or buying DCC locos still represents an increased cost.
One thing that seems to often be broguth up is "my layout is too small for DCC". While the logistics and expense of convertign an EXISTING very large layout to DCC are indeed quite real, the idea that a layout is too small for DCC is something I take issue with. My opion is almost exactly opposite. It's on the smaller layout where you cna really take advantage of the free-runnign capabilities of DCC> That small switching layout? With DCC it's very easy for two oeprators to run locos, maybe one facing each way so as to do all traling point moves, with handoffs between the two., On a really large layout, you have the luxury of making the electrical blocks (or zones, as you will) large enough that the electrical characteristics don't interfere wwith the operational characteristics. On a small layout, where you mroe liekly end up with a basic 2-cab cab control system, you're reduced to frantic toggle flipping sicne the blocks are so short that even at scale speed they are traversed in seconds. Or the zones out of necessity have to encompass too large an area to easily allow multiple trains to run.
I submit that a small layout is easier to set up and run with DCC, at least once you want to run more than one train at a time. On a larger layout, there are alternative wiring methods that give most of the advantages of DCC while retaining DC operation.
As for loco costs, well, my $40 average was probably skewed by my last two purchases, but the majority of my locos were $40 or less, plus less than $20 for a decoder for each one (and there are quality $12 decoders, s my preferred choice is not the only one), so $60 for a DCC loco. And these are NOT 'train set' quality locos, most of mine are highly detailed Proto 2000 locos. The difference being, few if any recent releases fit my chosen era and prototype, so I aquire mine used, at train shows and on eBay. Hence the low relative cost.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.