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Not a Good Start (Digitrax DCC)

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Posted by Hamltnblue on Sunday, May 30, 2010 10:13 AM

 I'm in the middle of reading the DT402 manual to try to understand the issues and I think the product is pretty good.  I think I found the battery issue. It's not reverse polarity that damages the unit but it's when you totally flip the battery over with the connections pointing the wrong direction. The manual says :Do not install battery in this orientation, it will
cause serious damage to the throttle".

They should definitely fix that.

Springfield PA

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Posted by jalajoie on Sunday, May 30, 2010 10:07 AM

Hamltnblue

I agree that the cord is a plus but why not have it removable so that different lengths can be used?  That way if you visit a layout without radio the throttle can still be used as wired. Also if your battery runs low and no immediate replacement is available it's always good to be able to plug in.

My God you are a very fast thinker and poster, again a good point, yes why not, a removable cord such as I have on my Power Cab is a brilliant idea. I will pass it along to Digitrax at their booth this coming NMRA convention.

When I use a radio throttle on a non radio layout I use a 6 feet extension.

Jack W.

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Posted by jalajoie on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:57 AM

Hamltnblue

 Good Point about the plug in aspect of acquiring the network.  As far as polarity of the battery. If the circuit doesn't have a blocking diode or similar protection circuit, reverse battery can cause damage. Something just doesn't sound right that you would have to remove the battery when not in use or reverse polarity can damage it.  If it is the case does removing the battery cause the throttle to forget the network it had acquired?

There exist such a diode protection, reversing the polarity has no ill effect on the throttle. 

Jack W.

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Posted by mrgstrain on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:56 AM

Phoebe Vet  He did not melt the battery. It did some type of internal damage to the unit.

Putting the battery in backwards should not be an issue, and haveing to take it out and put it in all the time seems to be a pain.

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Posted by Hamltnblue on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:55 AM

jalajoie

Hamltnblue

My question is Why would a radio throttle need a cord?  It's amazing to me that in this day and age someone is selling a wireless product that has to be plugged in to acquire the network. Also the battery issue is uncalled for.  Does the controller at least turn itself off after a period of time if not used?

This is a very legitimate question. In a round robin group not every layouts are radio equiped so a mean to plugged your radio throttle in such a set up is required and beneficial.

This July I will get a Digitrax DT402D radio throttle but my club don't use duplex radio, the only way my new throttle will work is in plugging it into Loconet. To me this cord is a plus not a negative.

 

 

I agree that the cord is a plus but why not have it removable so that different lengths can be used?  That way if you visit a layout without radio the throttle can still be used as wired. Also if your battery runs low and no immediate replacement is available it's always good to be able to plug in.

Springfield PA

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Posted by Hamltnblue on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:53 AM

 Good Point about the plug in aspect of acquiring the network.  As far as polarity of the battery. If the circuit doesn't have a blocking diode or similar protection circuit, reverse battery can cause damage. Something just doesn't sound right that you would have to remove the battery when not in use or reverse polarity can damage it.  If it is the case does removing the battery cause the throttle to forget the network it had acquired?

Springfield PA

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Posted by jalajoie on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:52 AM

Hamltnblue

My question is Why would a radio throttle need a cord?  It's amazing to me that in this day and age someone is selling a wireless product that has to be plugged in to acquire the network. Also the battery issue is uncalled for.  Does the controller at least turn itself off after a period of time if not used?

This is a very legitimate question. In a round robin group not every layouts are radio equiped so a mean to plug your radio throttle in such a set up is required and beneficial.

This July I will get a Digitrax DT402D radio throttle but my club don't use duplex radio, the only way my new throttle will work is in plugging it into Loconet. To me this cord is a plus not a negative.

 

Jack W.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:45 AM

mrgstrain
.

I also know someone that put the battery in backwards in his Digitrax throttle and had to seen it in for repair, so it must casue some type of damage.

He probably melted the battery.  A short circuited battery can generate a lot of heat.  Perhaps Digitrax should put a non conductive coating on the tension springs.

If you want to do it yourself, nail polish is a good insulator.

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:40 AM

The 402D does not have to be plugged in to acquire the network.  It will remember the network to which it was linked the last time it was powered on.

Having the ABILITY to plug in to acquire the network makes it simple to acquire the correct network when you are operating in a multiple network environment like a train show.

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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Posted by mrgstrain on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:38 AM

Sound's like MFM 37 is trying to start something over something he knows nothing about (probably because it is MRC) the Advance Sq. is not a radio throttle.

I also know someone that put the battery in backwards in his Digitrax throttle and had to seen it in for repair, so it must casue some type of damage.

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Posted by CSX Robert on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:31 AM
Hamltnblue
My question is Why would a radio throttle need a cord?  It's amazing to me that in this day and age someone is selling a wireless product that has to be plugged in to acquire the network.
The DT402D does NOT have to be plugged in to acquire the network, but it does do it automatically when plugged in.
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Posted by Hamltnblue on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:08 AM

mfm37

Santa Fe all the way!

On my Prodigy Sq. system, I was able to purchase a 14 ft. coiled cord. Love it, can reach the whole layout. Picked it up at an online electronics store cheap!

 

 

Why would he want to add a 14 foot cord to a radio throttle?

 

My question is Why would a radio throttle need a cord?  It's amazing to me that in this day and age someone is selling a wireless product that has to be plugged in to acquire the network. Also the battery issue is uncalled for.  Does the controller at least turn itself off after a period of time if not used?

 

Springfield PA

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Posted by simon1966 on Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:04 AM

CSX Robert
I don't know why that particular box had a "Made in the U.S.A." label on it - maybe somebody stuck the wrong label on it, or maybe it is a generic "Digitrax - Made In the U.S.A." label that they stick on all of there boxes

Just to be clear, the PS14 box has a custom printed color PS14 label with photo and description of the contents.  After the address, is the typical DIGITRAX Complete Train Control logo with Made in U.S.A. on top of it.  So it is not the wrong label, or a label stuck on by mistake, but almost certainly an error in the graphics layout prior to printing that was simply not picked up in the proofing stage.

Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum

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Posted by CSX Robert on Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:51 AM
MichaelC
...I don't like being lied to. I don't like “spin”. I don't like false advertising...
MichaelC
...Even so, I have a serious problem with the fact the item is packaged in a box with a bright red "Made in the U.S.A.' label when in fact it is Chinese made...
So what are upset about, the fact the power supply was made in China or the fact that it was labeled as "Made in the U.S.A." If it is the fact that it was made in China, then you might as well forget about DCC, or even model railroading for that matter.

If the label is what you are upset about, without that label you would still have a dead power supply(unless seeing that particular label was one of the reasons you bought the system), but I don't see any intentional lieing, "spin" or false advertising regarding where Digitrax products are made. I don't know why that particular box had a "Made in the U.S.A." label on it - maybe somebody stuck the wrong label on it, or maybe it is a generic "Digitrax - Made In the U.S.A." label that they stick on all of there boxes - wouldn't matter to me because it is generally understood that even though Digitrax is "Made in the U.S.A.", certain components will not be(true not only for Digitrax, but for most things made in the U.S., especially anything electronic). I doubt if any of the components on the circuit boards are made in the U.S. and even the circuit boards themselves may not be made in the U.S., but the components are placed on the cicuit boards in the U.S. Again, this is true of anything electronic that is "Made in the U.S.A." but I don't expect manufacturers to have a disclaimer listing what components are not made in the U.S.

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Posted by simon1966 on Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:41 AM

Michael, I just upgraded to Duplex wireless from tethered throttles on my layout and since I was coming from the bulk of the coiled tether, the short pig tail was a real benefit to me.  I just double it back and hold it in my throttle hand behind the throttle, it then does not get in the way, catch on anything or even get noticed.

I just take my batteries out at the end of each session.  I use rechargeables most of the time, so they have to come out anyway to go on the charger.

Someone most certainly screwed up on the PS14 label, I just dug out my box and sure enough a nice printed label with a blatantly incorrect  "made in" notation.   Since the main components are made in the USA (of course assembled from components and parts from all over the world) Digitrax does make a big deal about being a US manufacturer, my guess is that the graphics person made a mistake and nobody picked it up.

Someone above already gave you the spec for it.  I found an old Walwort that met the spec for when I got a PR3 and forgot to order the separate PS14.

I totally understand your frustration, how staggeringly annoying for this to happen, when you want to get on and play with the new toys.

Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum

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Posted by jamnest on Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:34 AM

I love my Digitrax Super Chief.  I have had radio (DT100R) for over 10 years.  The on/off switch would be nice.  I use rechargable 9v batteries, but there are times that I want to run a test train and don't wnat to take the time to put a battery in the throttle.  I have a coiled cord and a female/female modular plug that I attach to the trottle so I can use it like a teathered throttle.  I can also use my computer as a throttle with Decoder Pro.

Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:21 AM

I love my Digitrax Super Chief system.  The only complaint in your post with which I agree is the lack of an on/off switch.

The short cord is not a problem and I can't imagine what you are afraid you are going to snag it on.  Not one of my Digitrax accessories has ever failed.  I have 8 DS-64s, 2 DT402Ds, 1 UT4D, 1 UR92, 3 UP5s, and 1 PR3.  None of my PS14s have ever failed.

If you put the battery in backward the damage will be to the battery, not to the electronics of the throttle.  There is no electrical connection between the tension springs and the electronics of the throttle.  But, with a direct short like that I bet that the battery will get REALLY hot.

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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Posted by MichaelC on Sunday, May 30, 2010 7:34 AM

maxman
I don't know anything about the Digitrax product line, and I don't know what a UR-92 is.  However, looking at the Digitrax documentation for the PS-14 it says:

"2) You must protect the primary and secondary windings of the transformer from overload. A typical primary protection would be a 1 amp "slow-blow" fuse (in an appropriate fuse holder) wired in the primary line circuit. For the secondary we recommend a circuit breaker rated no larger than the minimum of either the transformer secondary current rating or the booster's output current rating (typically 5 or 8 amps)."  See http://www.digitrax.com/prd_ps_ps14.php.

Looking at the picture of the product, it appears that the input side is made to plug into a power strip.  Or maybe a wall outlet.  I know that the wall outlets at my house don't have a 1 amp slow blow fuse.  And if power strips have any fuses in them I've never gone looking for one.

So, did you check the input side fuse? 

 

A UR-92 is the Digitrax Duplex Radio Transceiver Unit that is normally mounted on the layout fascia.  It is the device used to connect the throttle(s) to the DCC system when used in tethered mode and also functions as the wireless interface (radio and infrared) between the throttles and the Command Station.

The section of the document you referenced is referring to a "do it yourself" transformer project, not the manufactured power supplies / transformers.

Thanks for your suggestion.

Mlc
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Posted by retsignalmtr on Sunday, May 30, 2010 7:22 AM

I use Digitrax. I have a DT400r and a UT4r. I have installed an SPST switch in the UT4r so I don't Have to remove the Battery, the DT400 will get one soon. There is room for a mini-toggle on the side. As for the dangleing short cord, I have made several six foot extension cords and can move around while tethered. Buy some six wire flat cable, some modular telephone jacks, and a crimper. With the cables you make you will save the money over buying premanufacturered cables. Extension cables are not made like the loconet cables, the White wires are reversed on one of the ends. Six pin inline connectors will allow you to plug them into the DT400.

The equipment is probably NOT made in the USA. The box probably ISN'T either. Thats where all the jobs went. I'm very satisfied with Digitrax. My club has two Digitrax systems, along with DS 64, PM 42, AR 1 and the PR3 with the JMRI download. I try to buy American whenever I can. Sometimes you can't or you will be running around barefoot, naked and live in a cave in the rocks.

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Posted by mfm37 on Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:35 AM

Santa Fe all the way!

On my Prodigy Sq. system, I was able to purchase a 14 ft. coiled cord. Love it, can reach the whole layout. Picked it up at an online electronics store cheap!

 

 

Why would he want to add a 14 foot cord to a radio throttle?

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Posted by mfm37 on Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:25 AM

 Short cord: Robert has already responded with A.J.'s reasoning on that. Makes sense to me too.

No on/off switch: Can't figure why one has never been added. We've been requesting it since the DT100. Never seen a throttle permanently damaged by flipping the battery the wrong way. They get very hot and it usually takes only one time to learn the lesson. My throttles continue to operate with one ear on the battery cover.

Power supply: Well that PO's me too. Made in USA means something to me too.

Any 12 to 18 volt DC power supply will work. Needs a 2.1mm female coax jack- center positive. If no jack's availble positive can be connected to one of the track connections on the rear. Negative gets connected to one of the front screws.

Track power hooked up to the Track A and B terminals of your UR92 may also get you back in business. It works on UR91's. It definitely won't hurt.

Martin Myers

 

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Posted by Santa Fe all the way! on Saturday, May 29, 2010 11:33 PM

On my Prodigy Sq. system, I was able to purchase a 14 ft. coiled cord. Love it, can reach the whole layout. Picked it up at an online electronics store cheap!

Come on CMW, make a '41-'46 Chevy school bus!
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Posted by maxman on Saturday, May 29, 2010 10:20 PM

MichaelC
A little troubleshooting showed the PS14 that powers the UR-92 had stopped functioning. The power indicator light on the PS14 was not illuminated and the volt meter confirmed that it was putting out zero power. Nothing.

 

I don't know anything about the Digitrax product line, and I don't know what a UR-92 is.  However, looking at the Digitrax documentation for the PS-14 it says:

"2) You must protect the primary and secondary windings of the transformer from overload. A typical primary protection would be a 1 amp "slow-blow" fuse (in an appropriate fuse holder) wired in the primary line circuit. For the secondary we recommend a circuit breaker rated no larger than the minimum of either the transformer secondary current rating or the booster's output current rating (typically 5 or 8 amps)."  See http://www.digitrax.com/prd_ps_ps14.php.

Looking at the picture of the product, it appears that the input side is made to plug into a power strip.  Or maybe a wall outlet.  I know that the wall outlets at my house don't have a 1 amp slow blow fuse.  And if power strips have any fuses in them I've never gone looking for one.

So, did you check the input side fuse? 

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Posted by locoi1sa on Saturday, May 29, 2010 10:16 PM

 MLC.

 My friends digitrax system that I run on has little plastic clips glued to the back of the throttle to hold the short tethers from dangling around. He picked the clips up at a local hardware store. He also wired in a mini toggle switch to one battery lead to shut off the throttles when not needed. There are extension cables hanging up on the layout for plugging in a dead battery throttle or acquiring locos.

    Pete

 I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!

 I started with nothing and still have most of it left!

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Posted by MichaelC on Saturday, May 29, 2010 8:21 PM
CSX Robert

 

Small power supplies like the PS14 are the sort of thing a small company like Digitrax is not going to waste their time producing in house and you aren't likely going to find one made in the US. I'm pretty sure it is the same way with NCE's Power Cab power supply.


 I have no doubt you are correct, unfortunately.  Even so, I have a serious problem with the fact the item is packaged in a box with a bright red "Made in the U.S.A.' label when in fact it is Chinese made garbage.  Strong words perhaps, but nevertheless true.

 

Thanks for your comments.

Mlc
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Posted by CSX Robert on Saturday, May 29, 2010 8:09 PM
The short cord on the radio throttles was never intended for regular tethered use, only for acquiring a loco with the simplex radio, for syncronising with Loconet, and in case of needing to plug in in case of an emergency. It is one of those "can't please all of the people all of the time" design features - which is worse, having a short permanently attached cable or a removable cable that you can't find quick enough when your throttle's battery dies and you need to plug in? To use the throttle tethered, you can get an extension cable fro it.

Small power supplies like the PS14 are the sort of thing a small company like Digitrax is not going to waste their time producing in house and you aren't likely going to find one made in the US. I'm pretty sure it is the same way with NCE's Power Cab power supply.

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Not a Good Start (Digitrax DCC)
Posted by MichaelC on Saturday, May 29, 2010 7:29 PM

My apologies in advance for the long-winded post. Believe it or not, this is the condensed version.

As some readers may remember, I posted a week or so ago that after doing my research I had decided to purchase a Digitrax Super Chief Xtra (402D throttle) for my first DCC system. I received the system 3 days ago and after reading through the manuals one more time, I installed it 2 days ago.

 

The GOOD:

The basic system was easy enough to figure out and place into operation. After spending a little time (again) reviewing the manuals, I was able to program the desired addresses into my locos. I was also able to do some basic CV editing (vol. settings, etc) easily enough. After working with it for a few minutes, the throttle lay-out and the programming sequence pretty quickly started to become natural and easy.


The NOT SO GOOD:

There are 2 things that IMO are major design flaws, and to be honest, I am having a hard time understanding the rationale for them. I was aware of these issues before I made my purchase so I accept them, but I still don't like them. I hope there will be design changes made which can be retrofitted to the throttles.

The first issue is the short NON-REMOVABLE cord for plugging the 402D into the loconet. It is permanently attached to the top of the throttle. When using the throttle in tethered mode, the cord is to short to be of much use. Very restrictive! When using the throttle in the wireless mode, the cord is hanging in the way and will probably be the cause of me dropping the throttle to the floor before it's over. A detachable cord would be much more useful and to me, seems like a decision should have been a "no-brainer". I guess not.

The second issue is the fact that the throttle cannot be "turned off" when the system is not in use, thereby quickly draining the 9v battery. The recommended practice is to remove the battery cover and take the battery out or turn the battery over (reverse the Pos/Neg terminals) and reinsert it until the next time it is needed. Two problems will likely crop up sooner rather than later. The small thin plastic clip that snaps the battery cover to the case will quickly wear out and break from constantly removing and reinserting the battery compartment cover. Even worse is the fact that if you inadvertently swap the left/right ends of the battery instead of just flipping it over, the throttle will be damaged electronically, possibly trashed. Both ends of the battery compartment have identical looking connectors, except for the small +/- molded into the plastic on one end. In a quick moment of inattention, the battery could easily be inserted the wrong way thereby damaging/destroying the throttle. Not good at all! What were they thinking?


The Potential Deal Breaker:

One of the things that impressed me about the Digitrax system was that it is designed, manufactured, and serviced in-house. In Florida. In the U.S.A. Or so I was lead to believe.

I do everything I can to avoid things made in China. Sometimes there's no other choice so I either do without or know that if I buy, I'll regret it 9 times out of 10. It is guaranteed to break or stop working shortly after you pay for it, if it even functions at all initially.

After a total of 2, or at the most 3, hours of use, the throttle stopped responding and the Command Station started beeping (indicating a problem). A little troubleshooting showed the PS14 that powers the UR-92 had stopped functioning. The power indicator light on the PS14 was not illuminated and the volt meter confirmed that it was putting out zero power. Nothing.

I pulled out the box the PS14 was shipped in. An original Digitrax box stating it was a Digitrax PS14 with “Made in the U.S.A.” in red letters on the label.

I looked at the PS14 and was dumbfounded to see a label that says “Made in China”. Maybe the box and the label were made in the U.S.A., but the part that counts was not. So here I am on a holiday weekend with a brand new DCC system that is unusable unless I use the throttle while on my knees while it is tethered to the Command Station by it's huge 9 inch long cord.


Conclusion:

I have additional equipment I need to purchase (turnout controllers, JMRI PC interface, auto reverser, etc) but my next steps will depend on the outcome of the conversion I will be having with Digitrax Tuesday morning. I will be seeking an explanation as to why their 'Made in the U.S.A.' equipment is actually 'Made in China' as well as seeing how they handle this issue.

I don't like being lied to. I don't like “spin”. I don't like false advertising.  At this point, I will give Digitrax the benefit of the doubt. We'll see how it goes before a final decision is made.

If you have somehow made it this far, thanks for listening.

Mlc

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