okay, so i got a Prodigy Express starter set for the steal price of $50 (unopened, brand new) with the original intention of selling it on ebay. But then I had my first DCC experience on the NEB&W, and was kinda blown away.
So, I'm interested now. haha. some questions:
1) will any decoder work with any brand of engine? ie: I can put the same decoder in Kato's and Athearns?
2) what are the cheapest, yet best, decoders?
3) If I buy a sound decoder, will that also act as a regular decoder for controlling the engine, or are sound decoders JUST for sound? If thats the case, wouldn't I need to install 2 separate decoders to get sound?
4) Will all brands of decoders work for all brands of DCC systems? I read over the feature in the latest MR, and it seemed to indicate that its all standardized now.
5) will the DCC-equipped Bachmann GP-35's work with every DCC system, or just with their E-Z Command system? Every place I see them, it says "to be used with Bachmann's E-Z Command System"
6) Will my Prodigy Express system support sound? i'm still trying to understand the directions that come with it, but it doesn't seem to mention anything about it.
7) My layout is currently wired for 2-cab DC, using an MRC Tech II 2800 with common rail. The turnouts that I'm using, however, are handlaid and made to be DCC-friendly, I guess (isolated points, jumpers to corresponding stock rails, gaps on both sides of frog). Can I run DCC-equipped engines on this layout using the Prodigy Express system, acting as a 3rd cab?
that should about do it...... I'm not looking to power turnouts or signals or anything, just control and consist engines, with sound if possible.
Thanks a ton in advance
1. Yes, to a degree. There are some decoders that are better "fits" for different applications. You'll have to research a little on that.
2. I'd say either the NCE 10/$120 ones (forget the model at the moment) or TCS T1, though I've only used the NCE ones. Note that both of these are (to my knowledge) hardwire decoders.
3. Depends -- If I'm not confusing myself at the moment, you can have sound/motot or sound only. sound only would work for B-unit diesel locos, and sound/motor for everything else that needs to move.
4. yes. Only thing is with newer decoders you might not be able to get at all the functions (eg if you only have functiona 0-8, and the decoder has 0-12, you can't get at 9-12 with your system).
5. Per the DCC spec, every decoder has to play nice with every system (see 4).
6. Maybe, I don't know how many features it supports.
7. yes... make sure you have some form of positive shutoff before switching over -- IE the layout is run as DC ONLY or DCC only, running both at the same time could fry the DC and/or DCC systems.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Your original intention of selling it on ebay is the best option and consider one of the following Digitrax Zephy, MRC Prodigy Advance or NCE Power Cab.
I know from experience the Express does not do everything the manual says it does. My feeling is some of the Advance documentation found its way into the Express one, therefore the manual for the Express can't be trusted. For instance try to consist two locos back to back following the Express documentation and you will not be able to succeed. The awkward way around, is to always tinker with CV29 not a very good solution to me.
Jack W.
jalajoie wrote:... For instance try to consist two locos back to back following the Express documentation and you will not be able to succeed...
CSX Robert wrote: jalajoie wrote:... For instance try to consist two locos back to back following the Express documentation and you will not be able to succeed...Just curious - were you trying "Advanced Consisting" or "Universal (Old-Style) Consisting"?
First it is not with my own system however it must be Advanced Consisting, as the Express does not support Universal consisting.
jalajoie wrote:... as the Express does not support Universal consisting.
wow thanks for the replies. Could someone explain the difference between regular and advanced consisting? The NEB&W has NCE, and all I did with that was select the lead loco, then select the last loco, and then I would just select the locos in between. Very easy.
I was thinking about going with NCE because of my experience at the NEB&W..... but I just got this thing at a steal.
And what does a hardwire decoder mean?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
DeadheadGreg wrote: wow thanks for the replies. Could someone explain the difference between regular and advanced consisting? The NEB&W has NCE, and all I did with that was select the lead loco, then select the last loco, and then I would just select the locos in between. Very easy. I was thinking about going with NCE because of my experience at the NEB&W..... but I just got this thing at a steal. And what does a hardwire decoder mean?
Here is what I found on Tony's site: http://www.tonystrains.com/technews/consisting-guide.htm
Hardwiring decoder means you have to solder every wires to the engine motor and lights, as oppose to plug and play decoders.
yeah that whole Advanced Consisting thing is EXACTLY why I don't want to dig too deep into DCC. Unnecessarily complicated and confusing.
anyway... if you have a DCC-equipped engine, can it still be run by regular DC?
DeadheadGreg wrote:anyway... if you have a DCC-equipped engine, can it still be run by regular DC?
DeadheadGreg wrote: yeah that whole Advanced Consisting thing is EXACTLY why I don't want to dig too deep into DCC. Unnecessarily complicated and confusing. anyway... if you have a DCC-equipped engine, can it still be run by regular DC?
There is no need to dig deeply into DCC to built consist with any system. Once you have built one or two it is then very easy and straightforward.
i just liked the ease that the NCE system allowed for over at the NEB&W. Select lead loco. Select last loco. Select locos in between. Done.
i'm still on the fence.... i don't know if i like the idea of having to go in and solder a decoder into the circuit board of every one of my engines.
DeadheadGreg wrote: i'm still on the fence.... i don't know if i like the idea of having to go in and solder a decoder into the circuit board of every one of my engines.
It's not to the board per se. If a loco already has a board in it, there will usually be a 8 or 9-pin connector somewhere with a "jumper" board in place to allow for the loco to run on DC. You just have to pull that jumper out, and replace with the decoder of choice (that uses the same connector for obviuos reasons).
Hardwiring a decoder involves you soldering the red and black wires to the power pickups (leads from the wheels), the orange/grey to the motor, and the Blue along with the white/grn/yellow to lights (each of the wht/grn/ylw is for a different light feature - eg foreward, reverse, MARS, ditch...). If it's a sound decoder I think there's also violet. The BLUE wire is the lighting common (ground) for all of the light functions (I think, it might be the white -- if so replace Blue with White above and continue as normal )
Since I have little cash (college student here, if you don't know) I pick up "non-DCC ready" (or friendly, for that matter) locos. Because I am modelling sometime between 1930 and 1950(ish...), the majority of my locos are steam, and all but two are die-cast kits... so hardwiring is the only way to go for me.
When they're running smooth, they'll pull a 40' (prototype) boxcar...
indeed. I didn't know that was advanced consisting. See, this is exactly my problem with DCC: everything SEEMS so unnecessarily complicated, that it scares people off.
NeO, i feel you. I'm in college, still, at 22. Where do you go?
j-w--
Digitrax DCS50 --
(yes,the pic is huge... but oh well)
Greg --
John Carroll in Cleveland... finishing up in December
So let me just get this straight: I can still run DCC engines on a DC layout, yes?
I'm still confused on the whole sound decoder thing.... are Control decoders and Sound decoders completely separate? Or does someone make a decoder that controls sound and the engine? I mean, of course you need the speaker installed, also... but thats implied.
DeadheadGreg wrote: I'm still confused on the whole sound decoder thing.... are Control decoders and Sound decoders completely separate? Or does someone make a decoder that controls sound and the engine? I mean, of course you need the speaker installed, also... but thats implied.
Reread the first post from David Bedard, his answer is quite clear.
davidmbedard wrote:Depends on the decoder. Some are just sound, some are sound/lights, some are sound/motor, some are sound/motor/lights. All I can say is steer clear of the MRC decoders, no matter how good the price is.
Depends on the decoder. Some are just sound, some are sound/lights, some are sound/motor, some are sound/motor/lights. All I can say is steer clear of the MRC decoders, no matter how good the price is.
Just ordered my Digitrax Zephyr and some decoders. The package will be here Monday.
DeadheadGreg wrote:So let me just get this straight: I can still run DCC engines on a DC layout, yes?
Not necessarily. Depends onif your particular system has that capability.
NCE - not at all.
DIGITRAX - yes for the Zephyr. Not sure about the SEB or Super Chief.
thats odd... I would figure that any DCC engine could run on a DC layout, because it still has the DC motor installed; its just not getting any command signals from a DCC system.
i think i AM going to sell my Prodigy Express so i can get a NCE system... or maybe ask for that for Christmas :)
is this a good idea? And what would you guys consider a good price for the NCE starter system, including a power supply?
Greg, in my experience a DCC-equipped locomotive (mine are all sound and dual-mode, with the latter meaning the decoder can be set to run on either DC or DCC) that is designed for dual mode operation runs just fine on a DC layout. The problem is, it would sort of be like driving a Lambourghini with a strongly limiting governor on the engine. You definitely are driving the Lambourghini, but putt-putting along at 60 mph with a tailwind. DCC offers so much more, but that requires the correct inputs to control all the decoder can provide for you.
I ran my first engine, DCC and sound (all in the same QSI decoder), on DC for several months before I switched over. My layout wiring was very simple with no gaps, but with three sets of feeders here and there to ensure good signal and voltage to the rails everywhere. I could operate the bell and whistle, as well as the lights working automatically when I reversed the engine, but that was it. Had I placed two such engines on the layout, they would both have done the very same thing that a DC pair would have done...chase each other around the layout unless I used block control...which gives me the heebie-jeebies just thinking about it.
It is only in DCC operations that you can control each individual engine and make it do precisely what you wish. Since each decoder gets a name, its address, each decoder does what you tell it to do when you call it by name...which the DCC base system or throttle does on your behalf based on your throttle inputs.
Yes, the motor is a simple DC can motor. However, it must get its expected DC current as rectified by the decoder, which in turn gets the modified AC current from the DCC system outputs. If you place the engine on your DC tracks, and CV 29 is set at "38" (for the QSI and many others), the decoder recognizes the DC current and merely meters that out to the motor based on how much voltage you assign to the rails as you dial it in with your power source.
Does that help a bit?
-Crandell
I bought a PowerCab from Tony for 149.95$, it comes complete with its own power supply.
http://www.tonystrains.com/products/nce_ssets.htm
AFAIK, any DCC decoder will work on DC. The problem is that it won't be very fast. In my experience, running a DCC'd loco on DC will make it significantly slower. There's probably some kind of voltage limiter in the circuit that makes it that way for DC.
However, there is a trick. All DCC decoders can be programmed to turn off DC-mode. In fact, all DCC decoders should be programmed to turn off DC-mode. DCC decoders with DC-mode turned on can "runaway" at high speed after a short circuit in the track. Turning off DC-mode prevents that. DC-mode is turned on at the factory for all DCC decoders.
CV29 (Configuration Variable #29) controls several things, one of them being DC-mode. Depending on what number is programmed into CV29, the result will give you DC-mode on/off, the number of speed steps (throttle notches), forward/backward (to control if a loco is long hood forward), speed table on/off (for customizing locos to match other locos), and if the loco is using a 2-digit or 4-digit address (loco number).
For example, say you have a DCC-equipped New Haven RS-11 numbered 1410 where the short hood is forward (there's a little "F" on that side). You want the control to be as smooth as possible, so you want 128 speed steps, not 14 or 28 speed steps. It's also your only loco, so you have no interest in a speed table to match other locos. If you want this loco to operate on DC-mode, program CV29=38. If you want DC-mode turned off, CV29=34.
Do the same as above, but this time the loco's address is 10. In that case, CV29=06 for DC-mode turned on, CV29=02 to turn off DC-mode. Note that in each case, the difference between DC-mode on or off is a value of 4 in CV29.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul,
'Just About' any DCC decoder will work on DC. The older SoundTraxx sound decoders(including the 'LC' series) will be damaged if put on a DC layout. The current 'Tsnami' series will work on DC or DCC.
I have a pair of the B280LC sound decoders in my Spectrum 2-8-0's. They were easy to install, sound good - But they cannot run on a DC layout. One of these days I will replace them with newer sound decoders(with better motor control). The problem is that they just will not 'die' - and I hate to trash something that still works....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Crandelll, how much did you pay for your QSI decoder?
I'm still up in the air as to whether i want sound or not.... i was running some of my athearns last night, and their motors were noisy enough to moderately suffice as being realistic to me... gah. so many decisions and choices........
Greg, I am strictly a buyer and user...have never installed a decoder. All my engines have factory installations.
I don't know what to suggest about sound to you. I love them and won't have an engine without sound. Many threads over the past several years have the topic of too much sound...a very unpleasant symphony of sound all around the operator with decoders running pumps, steam generators, pop-off valves and injectors....it can get to be very annoying.
But I find the near silent, and somewhat geary drives in many cases, to be far more of an impoverishment of my toy train experience. So, I silence decoders not in use (press F8 on your throttle), and I reduce the master volume for all sounds to a level near 50% of what the factory settings are. QSI decoders are famous for an inital heart-stopping blast upon start-up for a new engine on one's layout. Their max volume setting is in a range from 1-15 last I checked, and all my QSI's run in a reduced setting between 6-9. You can select and raise the individual volumes as you wish...maybe your train's whistle/horn suffers too much with such a drastic reduction, so you can acquire that CV in programming and adjust it upwards or down as you wish.
You can shop around for the better sound decoders. I only have experience with Soundtraxx Tsunami, of which I have two, and I love them, QSI, and Loksound. I upgraded all my QSI's two summers ago and really do like them. You might do yourself a justice to seriously inquire about the new QSI Revolution. Digitrax and Loksound also make sound decoders. I would guess some careful buying would net you a good decoder for between $80-90, maybe considerably less on ebay? Shipping added, of course.
I would urge you to try, or buy, or borrow for a weekend, one sound engine and see if it appeals to you after two or three hours of fun. Make your decision with first-hand and hands-on knowledge.