DCC or DC Powered Tortoise Switches Preferred?

[locoworks]

  

Why would a Tortoise be "three wire common ground"?  You only need two wires for a Tortoise,

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

 i think the 3 wire bit has come into the equation for when you us 2 DC power supplies and SPDT switches to control the tortoise.  

[Paul3]

Capt. Grimek,
Pesonally, I wouldn't use the Wabbit or Hare as they are way over-priced compared to Digitrax DS44's and other types of stationary decoders provided you just want to throw switches.  However, the Hare/Wabbit do have their uses (read up about them on Tony's website: www.tonystrains.com).

As for the general question of whether to have them controlled by DCC or by other means, the answer is: "It depends."  Are you always going to be walking with your train?  Can your toggles be located near the switches?  Are you going to have a dispatcher, and is he going to be located in the same room?  Essentially, if you have a need to throw a switch when you're no where near it, then making them run by DCC is the better option.  That being said, I would not DCC a yard or something similar where you're constantly throwing switches back and forth.  Toggles are far faster for that.  But for mainline switches and sidings, DCC is a nice option.

No, you would not need a 5 amp system if you put in stationary decoders.  The Zephyr can handle it all by itself for a limited number of switches.  However, it might become a problem if you add 100 Tortoise machines, or something like that.  Overall, it's best if the stationary decoders are powered off a seperate power supply.  The more expensive DS54 or DS64 decoders can take power from a wall transformer, while the cheaper DS44 cannot.  BTW, you might need a 5 amp or 8 amp system if you plan on running 5 trains all with sound at the same time.  If each train has one sound engine, you'll probably be okay.  But if each train has 2 or 3 sound engines on it, you will run out of power with the Zephyr.

Last Chance,
Tortoise machines don't "turn off".  They are stall motors, so even when stopped, they are still taking power.  They are also 12vdc machines, not 9vdc.  Batteries are only for testing, not for actual layout use.  I've never had a Tortoise machine not "pass muster".  I've never even had one fail...other than that one that got drilled through by someone doing some electrical work.  You'd think he would have stopped when he hit green plastic, but nooooo... 

You don't hit "ENTER" when throwing a switch with a DT400.  You hit "SWCH", then punch in the switch number, then hit "t" or "c" to "throw" or "clear" the switch.  The switch then moves without hitting "ENTER".

Stationary decoders do not require their own power supply.  It's good practice to do so, but it is not needed.  They can be powered using the track bus just like mobile decoders. 

Why would a Tortoise be "three wire common ground"?  You only need two wires for a Tortoise, as you're just reversing the polarity.  The only time you need more than two wires is if you're wiring up a crossover that uses two Tortoise machines and you're throwing it with a DS54 or DS64.  You also need two resistors on that third wire as it adds power to the circuit so as to throw both machines at 12vdc.  I've installed literally hundreds of Tortoise machines at my club layout, and I've never used a 3rd wire for any other reason.

Why would anyone want a DT400 to run the train and another to throw switches?  The same throttle can do both jobs literally at the same time.

MisterBeasley,
With Digitrax and the DT400 throttle, you do not lose control of your train while throwing stationary decoders (but that does happen with older throttles like the DT100).  Likewise, the DT400 throttle can control two trains at the same time with ease because of it's twin throttle knobs.  I don't recommend it, but at least both trains can be controlled at exactly the same time.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[Last Chance]

The tortoises themselves are thrown with a 9 volt battery or equivilant analog power. They are stall motor switches that stop and turn off when they reach the end of the throw.

Sorry, but that's not correct.  A Tortoise stall motor needs constant voltage, and does not turn off at the end of its throw. 

Quoting from the Tortoise instruction sheet:  "The motor in the Tortoise is powered continuously and merely stalls out at the end of the throw.  The motor will not be harmed by continuous application of 12 volts DC or less."

Stall out, turn off, same result.

I used the 9 volt battery example because I was trained to use such a battery to test Tortoises, you can throw dozens of them during testing to weed out the ones which dont pass muster.

[baron9]

 My 24x32 feet layout had about 30 switches and were controlled by toggle switches. One night while operating I went to throw a switch and it did'nt work. I checked all the wiring and found everything was intact. I the  threw another switch and that did'nt work either. I had some kind of short and did not know where to look first. My local hobby shop suggested that I start with one switch and work my way down to where I found the short. After many attempts I called back the hobby shop and they suggested I try the Switch 8 from NCE Corp. The Switch8 gets its power from the track power using two wires to the Switch8,then two wires to the tortoise machine. I then programed it into my throttle and was off and running in about 5 minutes. No more toggle switches for me and no more frustration with short circuits. Just my thoughts.

[MisterBeasley]

I use a control panel with toggles.  I'm using twin-coil machines, but the principle is the same.

I have a small layout, a 5x12 table, but quite a few turnouts.  All are powered, and some are down in the subway tunnels where they can't be seen.  For the hidden ones, I've wired up position indicator lights using two-color LEDs.  For the rest, I can just eyeball them and don't need the complexity of extra wiring.

I see two problems with using DCC for throwing turnouts.  First, I'd have to remember the address of every turnout.  Sure, I could consult a diagram mounted on the fascia, but if I need to do that, why not put a toggle on the diagram like I've already got?  The other problem is going through a sequence of pushbuttons to throw the toggle.  While you're doing this, you momentarily, at least, are not in control of your train.  On a small layout like mine, that matters.  I've found that even running two trains can be a challenge if you have to switch control back and forth and actively operate both of them.  More complexity makes accidents far more likely.

[locoworks]

The tortoises themselves are thrown with a 9 volt battery or equivilant analog power. They are stall motor switches that stop and turn off when they reach the end of the throw.

Sorry, but that's not correct.  A Tortoise stall motor needs constant voltage, and does not turn off at the end of its throw. 

Quoting from the Tortoise instruction sheet:  "The motor in the Tortoise is powered continuously and merely stalls out at the end of the throw.  The motor will not be harmed by continuous application of 12 volts DC or less."

sort of correct, it is designed to be used with constant voltage, but as i posted, they can be used without constant voltage in certain circumstances.  the type that 'switch off' the power at the end of their travel are the fulgerex / lemaco type of slow motion point motor.  there is no chance of this type being sprung back a bit by any type of point ( even hand made ) because they use a worm and wheel and not a mass of spur gears.

[cacole]

The tortoises themselves are thrown with a 9 volt battery or equivilant analog power. They are stall motor switches that stop and turn off when they reach the end of the throw.

Sorry, but that's not correct.  A Tortoise stall motor needs constant voltage, and does not turn off at the end of its throw. 

Quoting from the Tortoise instruction sheet:  "The motor in the Tortoise is powered continuously and merely stalls out at the end of the throw.  The motor will not be harmed by continuous application of 12 volts DC or less."

[locoworks]

 depending on your track and how you have the points sectioned??  ( if you modify them them to what is refered to as 'dcc friendly' in a lot of places ) using DCC with tortoises does not have to involve expensive hares and wabbits or the like.  the method requires the use of points with an over centre spring like peco.  you install the motor as normal and use one of the spdt switch contacts to feed the frog from the appropriate rail as if it is 'dcc friendly' ? the frog is completely isolated from the blades which themselves are wired to their respective running rail that they close to.  you can then power the motor using a lenz LS150 or any point decoder that can give a pulse long enough to throw the point.  9 the ls150 can give a 10 second pulse )the LS150 needs the diodes fitted in line with the feeds to the tortoise so the AC is effectively rectified to a DC supply that is effectively polarity reversable by the ls150.  although the tortoise is usually used with DC power switched to it all the time ( hence the term 'stall type', in other words the motor inside it is always powered and is trying to turn but is stalled ), it can with points with an over centre spring have the power switched off to it and it will for all intents and purposes stay put without the power. some of the tension in the operating arm will try and move the tortoise gears back a bit, and they will just, but the point will remain in possition and the frog will still get the appropriate power as the slight movement in the tortoise at loss of power is not enough to affect the spst auxillary swithes.   if you set up one to try and use proper DC instead of the LS150 to feed it, when you disconnect the power you will hear a slight noise as thye gear train 'relaxes', and if you put the power back on in the same polarity you will hear the motor tension up the geartrain again.   the other advantage of this system is that even with 50 tortoise machines that usually stall and are drawing current from the power supply, you only need a power supply capable of throwing a few points at a time or if you have routes set, how ever points are in the route. but basically a 500ma supply feeding all your LS150's outputs should do. another thing to consider is that the operating wire supplied with the tortoise can be not rigid enough to throw points with a strong over centre spring and may need replacing with a slightly heavier gauge wire ( i had to ) it also makes setting the tortoise up easier cos it will move the blades over if not centred correctly underneath the board, ( it still has to be close to centre though )

 what this system can't do is use the actual feed to the tortoise to power LED's in a route indicator panel. ( the ones that light dim while the motor is moving and light bright in the panel once the motor is stalled )  the spare spdt contacts on the tortoise can be used though,but it means running wires back to the panel from the point motors.

[jbinkley60]

 

I have 30+ Tortoises, most controlled with Digitrax DS64s.  I have no issue punching in a switch command on the DT400 and having routes negates not using manual controls on a control panel.  The nice thing about the DS64s is that you can still utilize push buttons on the control panel, if you'd like.  It can support both.  Not having them really cleans up a control panel.

The only switches you see are block power switches and those really could be eliminated, since this is now DCC.

 

[Last Chance]

The tortoises themselves are thrown with a 9 volt battery or equivilant analog power. They are stall motor switches that stop and turn off when they reach the end of the throw.

You can use a toggle to send a analog DC signal to the tortoise this way.

DCC gets a bit complicated. Basically you are now tying that manual old fashioned toggle to a loconet or similar electronic network of cables and modules. They sit and wait for thier address to be called up to throw the tortoise at that address.

I use a digitrax DS-64 to throw a few Kato switches. I input the command "Switch one, throw" into my DT400 and hit enter. The Command Station hears that command and routes it to the DS-64. Then that module knows which is switch number one and sends a brief 1/2 second pulse of power to that switch and it will throw.

Tortoise motors can be tied into DCC using interfaces such as the Hare. It is a bit pricey to do it this way. If you only had a few switches go for it.

Now.

Your switches will require thier own power system independant of the DCC Track BUS power and independant from any other power such as building lighting. I use a wall wart to drive the DS-64.

Finally but not last.... consider this:

My Kato is bi-polar... two wires. Tortoises can be three wire common ground.

Usually a DCC switch throwing module can be wired either way, but needs to be done correctly to suit whatever motor you are using to throw a switch on the railroad.

By the time I take a Tortoise, Hare and a DCC module to throw them with... alot of money has been spent. I suppose it is a brave new world and alot of fun.

Some folks prefer to throw the switches manually with toggles next to the track; faster than punching key commands into the throttle. I like to use toggles myself to make switching faster. DT400 throttles are 140 dollars or roughly each. So, having one throttle to throw switches and one to throw the engine isnt an option at the moment.

For lots of switching under a intense trackwork... vote for Toggle switches at the general area where the track switches are.

For lots of mainline run without very much switching, DCC might actually be better as you can throw and verify that switch way over yonder without walking two miles to eyeball it.

Some modules can provide feedback by reading the position of the switch (Thrown or Closed) and let you know in a variety of ways such as signalling to the throttle or to a track side signal wired to it.

Are we having fun yet?

Finally, the amps of your system is going to flow into the engines on your track. I keep my DS64 switch modules on thier own wallwart (PS-12 I believe) in groups of 4... totally independant from the DCC's own command station and track power.

However, the house provides up to 15 amps at the wall outlet for 120 volts. I need to be careful not to pull much more than 12 at any one time to anything in the room from one outlet.

[Capt. Grimek]

I'm looking at getting at least 6 Tortoise switches for my 8X17ft. layout just getting underway.
I've considered Hare/Wabbit DCC control units or the new snail (?). I've also read some older threads
that most felt DCC control of tortoises from a throttle was inconvenient, not much fun and kind of a pain
as opposed to pushing a switch for DC panel control.

Is this still the general consensus? I figured I could order Tortoises and always make the DCC control decision later. I plan on a digitrax Zephyr or Chief., using an additional DT400 throttle (for consisting/doubling). If I DCCed my switches would I need at least a 5 amp system? (I plan on running 4 to 5 trains with sound during sessions.)

Obviously DC Tortoises will be a cheaper option but wonder if I'll be missing any advantages that will make
the DCC control worthwhile on a small layout. (Less wiring/soldering)? The switch motors are for hidden out of reach turnouts.
I'll use ground throws everywhere else.

Thanks.