I have had a Zephyr since just after Digitrax released them. The module group I am in uses Digitrax and the Zephyr can be used as a booster to power my modules during train shows. I also found that programming with the Zephyr was much easier than with the DT300 throttles on the Chief ( this was before we purchased Dt400's). I have a programming track set up with a resistor across the rails (the resistor that came with the Zephyr in the decoder/loconet test pack). I have had no trouble programming sound decoders from Soundtraxx, QSI or ESU. I have finally bought a Locobuffer-USB and use DecoderPro for programming through the Zephyr.
One thing to remember is that the Zephyr is meant to be an entry-level DCC system. As such it should be A: easy to use B: appropriately priced and C: upgradeable. To build in advanced features such as radio or computer interface would work against these requirements. You can easily add these to the Zephyr if when you want to.
The main improvement needed, IMO, is a better display, perhaps a larger version of the DT400's. Combine this with a recall stack like the MRC Prodigy Advance uses, and have it displaying up to three locomotives' address, speed and direction. This would also make it easier to MU locomotives into consists.
I doubt that beginning users would really need to access 28 functions, but if it's only a software change that doesn't cost much it would be a nice feature.
Oh, yeah. One main thing that all Digitrax systems lack, AN ON/OFF SWITCH!
John
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
http://photobucket.com/tandarailroad/
locoworks wrote:... 1) i don't like the fact that when you acquire an already moving loco it suddenly changes speed and/or direction depending on the possition of the throttle and the brake lever. the solution for me would be a big knob like the UT4 on an encoder instead of a pot, and a button to change direction like the DT*00's this way the loco keeps its speed and direction and can be adjusted accordingly AFTER a smooth acquisition. the sudden speed and direction change can be lessened by using accelleration and decelleration settings, but they are always there then and you may not want them...
jfallon wrote: Oh, yeah. One main thing that all Digitrax systems lack, AN ON/OFF SWITCH! John
John; Excellent point. I have several DC powerpacks from various train sets. My favorite is an Athearn because it has an On/Off switch. Your point about the better display to me was a given; I'd started out with it. But I'd forgotten entirely about the power switch.
CSX Robert wrote: locoworks wrote:... 1) i don't like the fact that when you acquire an already moving loco it suddenly changes speed and/or direction depending on the possition of the throttle and the brake lever...When changing locos, press the loco button and while the display is flashing adjust the throttle and direction switch to match the loco you are switching to, then enter the new number and press loco to acquire the other loco.
locoworks wrote:... 1) i don't like the fact that when you acquire an already moving loco it suddenly changes speed and/or direction depending on the possition of the throttle and the brake lever...
Robert; A good tip for Zephyr users, but certainly not intuitive. If that's eplained in the documentation, I missed it somehow. I had to use my Zephyr for a while to figure it out. It also requires the operator to be able to estimate the proper throttle position for the current speed of the locomotive.
simon1966 wrote: In conclusion. The Zephyr 2 would have a built in PC interface. It would have a recall stack and 28 function support. Beyond that I would not change it a bit.I would reduce the price of the basic system to undercut the PowerCab and then offer a slightly higher priced bundle that would include the Z2 and a UT4. This would I suspect give a boost to sales.
In conclusion. The Zephyr 2 would have a built in PC interface. It would have a recall stack and 28 function support. Beyond that I would not change it a bit.
I would reduce the price of the basic system to undercut the PowerCab and then offer a slightly higher priced bundle that would include the Z2 and a UT4. This would I suspect give a boost to sales.
As usual Simon, your analysis of a subject is clear and precise. I totally agree with and echo all of your comments. I wish that I could say it as well.
Jerry
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
Interesting contrast of opinions here. Simon has addressed the needs of the Zephyr from the standpoint of a "power user" and John has addressed it from the standpoint of a new entry level user.
My initial idea was that an all-in-one starter should be geared towards the new entry level user. Perhpas John's ideas could be applied an entry level system and Simon's to the development of a new mid-range unit to replace the Empire Builder.
I also am seeing more value in the idea of "novice" menus and an "expert" mode. With an LCD panel display both of these interfaces would simply be a matter of firmware implementation.
Best!
As someone who is trying to decide WHICH entry level DCC system to purchase, I have to say that, if features alone were the deciding point, the Zephyr would win hands down. However, I am definately NOT a user's manual reader, and I have read A LOT of posts to the effect that the Zephyr pretty much REQUIRES you to read the documentation.
I'm still wondering if it's worth saving a few bucks and gaining some features to have to actually crack a book to figure out how to run the darn thing.
So, I'm still on the fence, not on the wagon.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
Randall_Roberts wrote: jfallon wrote: Oh, yeah. One main thing that all Digitrax systems lack, AN ON/OFF SWITCH! JohnJohn; Excellent point. I have several DC powerpacks from various train sets. My favorite is an Athearn because it has an On/Off switch. Your point about the better display to me was a given; I'd started out with it. But I'd forgotten entirely about the power switch. CSX Robert wrote: locoworks wrote:... 1) i don't like the fact that when you acquire an already moving loco it suddenly changes speed and/or direction depending on the possition of the throttle and the brake lever...When changing locos, press the loco button and while the display is flashing adjust the throttle and direction switch to match the loco you are switching to, then enter the new number and press loco to acquire the other loco.Robert; A good tip for Zephyr users, but certainly not intuitive. If that's eplained in the documentation, I missed it somehow. I had to use my Zephyr for a while to figure it out. It also requires the operator to be able to estimate the proper throttle position for the current speed of the locomotive.
that is how you have to try and do it, but if you have tram/brill trolley or a couple of PA units running back to back as a consist, how do you tell at a glance which way is forward?? if the display worked like the DT400 in 'RECALL' mode, it would show you the speed and direction of the address in the display BEFORE you acquire it. this would give you a chance of matching speed and direction fairly closely. and on that point, there is a recall stack in the DT400, 4 addresses as standard, but adjustable to 8 or 16. this is where the encoder comes in as you can scroll in either direction as far as necessary. you may find on the zephyr that if it had the function the throttle may not have enough movement left in the lever to get to the desired loco?? so if you get a DT400 from the get go, you can have a recall stack.
Randall_Roberts wrote: I also am seeing more value in the idea of "novice" menus and an "expert" mode. With an LCD panel display both of these interfaces would simply be a matter of firmware implementation. Best!
Now that is a clever idea, if only I could have an expert mode with my NCE Power Cab I would use it more often to program decoders, instead of leaving it in its box most of the time.
Jack W.
CTValleyRR wrote: As someone who is trying to decide WHICH entry level DCC system to purchase, I have to say that, if features alone were the deciding point, the Zephyr would win hands down. However, I am definately NOT a user's manual reader, and I have read A LOT of posts to the effect that the Zephyr pretty much REQUIRES you to read the documentation.I'm still wondering if it's worth saving a few bucks and gaining some features to have to actually crack a book to figure out how to run the darn thing. So, I'm still on the fence, not on the wagon.
This is an Urban Legend perpetuated mostly by peoples that don't even own a Zephyr in the first place.
I own a Zephyr and never look up the manual for the usual tasks such as acquiring locos, running them, make/break consists and program any decoders CVs.
For that matter, I also own a Power Cab and don't need the manuel to performs the same tasks but the menu driven system of NCE gets on my nerves.
David:
I agree with most of what you posted but have one issue:
"30 years? Wow, gentlemen, we have a founder of the computer among us!"
You are confusing the term "computer" with the term "personal computer".
Computers have been around far longer than 30 years.
Digital reprogramable computers date back to 1946, and other tabulating technologies go back much farther than that.
You are obviously refering to the Apple, and IBM PC computers that came out in the 70s.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
jalajoie wrote: CTValleyRR wrote: As someone who is trying to decide WHICH entry level DCC system to purchase, I have to say that, if features alone were the deciding point, the Zephyr would win hands down. However, I am definately NOT a user's manual reader, and I have read A LOT of posts to the effect that the Zephyr pretty much REQUIRES you to read the documentation.I'm still wondering if it's worth saving a few bucks and gaining some features to have to actually crack a book to figure out how to run the darn thing. So, I'm still on the fence, not on the wagon.This is an Urban Legend perpetuated mostly by peoples that don't even own a Zephyr in the first place.I own a Zephyr and never look up the manual for the usual tasks such as acquiring locos, running them, make/break consists and program any decoders CVs.For that matter, I also own a Power Cab and don't need the manuel to performs the same tasks but the menu driven system of NCE gets on my nerves.
Is it true the Zephyr can run non-DCC locos while the NCE can't? I'd like to go ahead and get and install a DCC system, but don't want to have to wait to replace my locos with DCC equiped ones.
Mntneer wrote: jalajoie wrote: CTValleyRR wrote: As someone who is trying to decide WHICH entry level DCC system to purchase, I have to say that, if features alone were the deciding point, the Zephyr would win hands down. However, I am definately NOT a user's manual reader, and I have read A LOT of posts to the effect that the Zephyr pretty much REQUIRES you to read the documentation.I'm still wondering if it's worth saving a few bucks and gaining some features to have to actually crack a book to figure out how to run the darn thing. So, I'm still on the fence, not on the wagon.This is an Urban Legend perpetuated mostly by peoples that don't even own a Zephyr in the first place.I own a Zephyr and never look up the manual for the usual tasks such as acquiring locos, running them, make/break consists and program any decoders CVs.For that matter, I also own a Power Cab and don't need the manuel to performs the same tasks but the menu driven system of NCE gets on my nerves. Is it true the Zephyr can run non-DCC locos while the NCE can't? I'd like to go ahead and get and install a DCC system, but don't want to have to wait to replace my locos with DCC equiped ones.
I can't Speak for the NCE system but the Zephyr will run a DC loco but it will make a buzzing sound
as the speed increases the buzzing will decrease
TerryinTexas
See my Web Site Here
http://conewriversubdivision.yolasite.com/
Mntneer wrote:Is it true the Zephyr can run non-DCC locos while the NCE can't? I'd like to go ahead and get and install a DCC system, but don't want to have to wait to replace my locos with DCC equiped ones.
This is true. I periodically do use the Zephyr to run non DCC loco's as I have a couple that I want to run for sentimental reasons, but they simply are not suitable for decoders. But please note that this method of running is far from the perfect solution. Typically the DC motor will emit a high frequency modulating hum or buzz when used in this mode. It can get a bit irritating. It is also recommended not to leave DC locos standing on the track for any great length of time. Supposedly motors can burn up, though I have never had first hand experience with this. So yes you can run a DC loco on with the Zephyr but I would not want to use it as a long term solution.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Mntneer wrote: Is it true the Zephyr can run non-DCC locos while the NCE can't? I'd like to go ahead and get and install a DCC system, but don't want to have to wait to replace my locos with DCC equiped ones.
Yes it is, with the Zephyr you can run One analog loco or a Consist of analogs locos. NCE will not implement this feature in their systems. Some say it is not good for the motors in the locomotives, again an Urban Legend true only if you let the loco stand still on the track for extended period of time (hours and hours). At the local club on a Digitrax Chief System we have a member who has been running its analogs locos for 10 years without any ill effect. As a matter of fact none of his locomotive is decoder equipped.
CTValleyRR wrote: and I have read A LOT of posts to the effect that the Zephyr pretty much REQUIRES you to read the documentation.I'm still wondering if it's worth saving a few bucks and gaining some features to have to actually crack a book to figure out how to run the darn thing. So, I'm still on the fence, not on the wagon.
and I have read A LOT of posts to the effect that the Zephyr pretty much REQUIRES you to read the documentation.
You won't see many of these posts from actual Zephyr users. The Zephyr is trivially simple to use for day-to-day operation. Selecting locos, running locos, operating sound functions, dispatching locos, the stuff you do every day is very simple indeed. Once you have learned the basics of doing these things (5 min learning curve) you will be off and running. Once you have mastered these things then you can delve into the joys of programming. This does take a little more time, but once learned is fast and easy to do. Honestly if you are into programming sound locos and really get into things like loco speed tables then I would strongly suggest a PC interface, and old PC and Decoder Pro from JMRI (free!!)
locoworks; The point is that simply adding a DT400 to the Zephyr from the get go more than doubles the cost of your entry level unit.
re: running a DC locomotive with the Zephyr, the ability to do so is part of the NMRA/MOROP specification. However, technically the DCC power/signal is AC. The speed of a single DC locomotive (using loco address zero) is controlled by varying the proportion between the positive and negative wave peaks of the "zero" pulses. Because you are actually applying AC to a DC motor the locomotive hums when it is stopped (equal proportion positive and negative pulses). It also heats up. Different DC motors perform differently under this system, but even the best performers don't run great. Most people do not use this function for fear that in the long term it may damage the locomotive.
jalajoie;
To CTValleyRR's comment I would say that the Zephyr not only requires you to read the documentation, it requires you to keep it handy as a reference.
To your assertion that you never look up things in the manual, I wll say that I don't either when it comes to acquiring and running locos, though I think to say that it's a 5 min. learning curve as someone did is a bit optimistic for most users. But programming is another matter entirely. If you don't need the manual to program CVs then you have an excellent memory my friend. I'm not being a smart A here... seriously, how long did it take you to learn all the CV functions and what their various settings do?
Randall_Roberts wrote: Interesting contrast of opinions here. Simon has addressed the needs of the Zephyr from the standpoint of a "power user" and John has addressed it from the standpoint of a new entry level user.My initial idea was that an all-in-one starter should be geared towards the new entry level user. Perhpas John's ideas could be applied an entry level system and Simon's to the development of a new mid-range unit to replace the Empire Builder.I also am seeing more value in the idea of "novice" menus and an "expert" mode. With an LCD panel display both of these interfaces would simply be a matter of firmware implementation. Best!
Randall you do make an interesting point regarding the Digitrax range. The Empire Builder is getting long-in-the-tooth and probably only exists in the product range still because the DB150 is sold as a booster. However, if it is significantly upgraded, then the Chief would need upgrading as well to stay ahead of it. The single most likely change we will see from Digitrax is the introduction of a DT400 replacement. Since this is the user interface for both systems then both would advance at the same time.
I don't consider myself a power user by any means. Like many, the first time I tried the Decoder Pro application on a PC interfaced to my Zephyr I realized that this is such a superior way of programming decoders. Not only is it a really simple user interface to use, but more importantly you can save the settings for a given loco. If you have spent considerable time getting speed curves set up and adjusted sound levels etc. it is very nice to be able to restore these settings to a locomotive quickly from the saved settings, if the loco gets scrambled for some reason.
I think the problem programming QSI sound-equipped engines isn't really a Zephyr issue, I think it's the same for all systems. BTW it's really only a problem with the earliest BLI/QSI engines...I can only program some CV's on my BLI Hudson from the first production run; all the BLI/QSI engines I've gotten since that one program fine with the Zephyr.
BTW computers weren't invented yesterday!! The first ones started being used during WW2. As a kid in the sixties one of my friend's Dad worked for Sperry-Univac doing computer designs; many companies were using computers for payroll etc. in the sixties.
I took computer programming classes in junior high in the early seventies.
simon1966 wrote:I don't consider myself a power user by any means. Like many, the first time I tried the Decoder Pro application on a PC interfaced to my Zephyr I realized that this is such a superior way of programming decoders. Not only is it a really simple user interface to use, but more importantly you can save the settings for a given loco. If you have spent considerable time getting speed curves set up and adjusted sound levels etc. it is very nice to be able to restore these settings to a locomotive quickly from the saved settings, if the loco gets scrambled for some reason.
Simon; Though my experience with Decoder Pro is somewhat limited, you have expressed exactly how I felt the first time I ran it. The ability to store your locomotive configurations in a database is marvelous. Computer users are always taught to back up their work, but before Decoder Pro I never heard of a way to back up your speed curves... and though I know I still have a lot to learn about setting up speed curves, I understand that they can still be a bit time consuming even for experienced loco programmers.
Can you tell me if Panel Pro allows you to program routes? Another contrast between the NCE PowerCab and the Zephyr is that the PowerCab as I understand it stores routes (though they call them by the computer programming term "macros"). As far as I know the Zephyr doesn't store routes, as Digitrax built this functionality into their DS64 stationary decoder turnout controllers. I know some people think the Zephyr stores routes because you program the DS64 routes from the Zephyr, but as far as I know the functionality is all in the DS64.
I think that in the long term the lack of routes in the Zephyr itself may hurt Digitrax, as Bachmann has introduced HO E-Z Track turnouts with DCC stationary decoders built in. I expect to see more manufacturers follow suit, which ultimately would make the DS64 useless in layouts using these newer turnouts.
Randall_Roberts wrote: jalajoie wrote: CTValleyRR wrote: As someone who is trying to decide WHICH entry level DCC system to purchase, I have to say that, if features alone were the deciding point, the Zephyr would win hands down. However, I am definately NOT a user's manual reader, and I have read A LOT of posts to the effect that the Zephyr pretty much REQUIRES you to read the documentation.I'm still wondering if it's worth saving a few bucks and gaining some features to have to actually crack a book to figure out how to run the darn thing. So, I'm still on the fence, not on the wagon.This is an Urban Legend perpetuated mostly by peoples that don't even own a Zephyr in the first place.I own a Zephyr and never look up the manual for the usual tasks such as acquiring locos, running them, make/break consists and program any decoders CVs.For that matter, I also own a Power Cab and don't need the manuel to performs the same tasks but the menu driven system of NCE gets on my nerves.jalajoie;To CTValleyRR's comment I would say that the Zephyr not only requires you to read the documentation, it requires you to keep it handy as a reference.
Nope I don't keep the manual handy as a reference.
To your assertion that you never look up things in the manual, I wll say that I don't either when it comes to acquiring and running locos, but programming is another matter entirely. If you don't need the manual to program CVs then you have an excellent memory my friend. I'm not being a smart A here, seriously, how long did it take you to learn all the CV functions and what their various values do? Best!
To your assertion that you never look up things in the manual, I wll say that I don't either when it comes to acquiring and running locos, but programming is another matter entirely. If you don't need the manual to program CVs then you have an excellent memory my friend. I'm not being a smart A here, seriously, how long did it take you to learn all the CV functions and what their various values do?
Maybe my choice of word was wrong, I don't need the Zephyr Manual to program CV with the Zephyr.
I do need to read the Decoder instruction sheet to learn their functions and what their various values do. I must say however that I am in Computer science since 1967 so programming CV, understanding Binary maths or understanding QSI two dimensional arrays, is within my reach.
Randall_Roberts wrote: Snip To your assertion that you never look up things in the manual, I wll say that I don't either when it comes to acquiring and running locos, though I think to say that it's a 5 min. learning curve as someone did is a bit optimistic for most users. But programming is another matter entirely. If you don't need the manual to program CVs then you have an excellent memory my friend. I'm not being a smart A here... seriously, how long did it take you to learn all the CV functions and what their various settings do? Best!
Snip
I agree that doing some things requires keeping a reference handy
but i found the Digitrax manual both confusing and lacking
Blast mode programming isn't covered even on their web site
so i got a copy of Loy's book "Mastering the Digitrax Zephyr"
Mntneer wrote:Thanks for the replys. One thought I had was to wire up for both DCC and DC operation and put a jumper/switch in to select either DCC operation or DC operation.
That's what i did
The top switch toggles between DC and DCC
The bottom switch toggles between the DC power pach and a DC hand throttle
that option is ok on layouts where the actual limitations of the original wiring of the DC layout are acceptable to the DCC user. but for me a DCC layout ought to be totally 'live'. on a DC layout you can switch isolated sections in yards on, they are usually only wired for on IF the turnout it set appropriately. a key bonus of DCC is the abillity to run engines and power lights or sound on a loco in a siding/spur with the points set against it. this DCC wiring option is obviously no use on a DC layout as all the sidings would be live and isolating a loco would mean switching power to all the sidings like DC wiring.
locoworks wrote:... a key bonus of DCC is the abillity to run engines and power lights or sound on a loco in a siding/spur with the points set against it. this DCC wiring option is obviously no use on a DC layout as all the sidings would be live and isolating a loco would mean switching power to all the sidings like DC wiring.
a key bonus of DCC is the abillity to run engines and power lights or sound on a loco in a siding/spur with the points set against it. this DCC wiring option is obviously no use on a DC layout as all the sidings would be live and isolating a loco would mean switching power to all the sidings like DC wiring.
The implication being that you need additional feeders or turnouts configured to be non-power routing... an option not available on all turnouts.
Randall_Roberts wrote: Can you tell me if Panel Pro allows you to program routes? Another contrast between the NCE PowerCab and the Zephyr is that the PowerCab as I understand it stores routes (though they call them by the computer programming term "macros"). As far as I know the Zephyr doesn't store routes, as Digitrax built this functionality into their DS64 stationary decoder turnout controllers. I know some people think the Zephyr stores routes because you program the DS64 routes from the Zephyr, but as far as I know the functionality is all in the DS64.I think that in the long term the lack of routes in the Zephyr itself may hurt Digitrax, as Bachmann has introduced HO E-Z Track turnouts with DCC stationary decoders built in. I expect to see more manufacturers follow suit, which ultimately would make the DS64 useless in layouts using these newer turnouts.
I think Panel Pro does, but since I don't use that part and use manual switched turnouts it is not even a consideration to me. Having used turnout control on a local layout I can't stand throwing switches from the throttle. I would much rather use a panel switch or manual.
simon1966 wrote:... Having used turnout control on a local layout I can't stand throwing switches from the throttle. I would much rather use a panel switch or manual.
I know others who feel the same way as you do. This, I feel, is one of the strengths of the DS64; there are inputs so that you can wire them to panel switches for "manual" control of your turnouts. This gives you the option of having both panel switches and turnout control from the throttle.
Randall_Roberts wrote: locoworks wrote:... a key bonus of DCC is the abillity to run engines and power lights or sound on a loco in a siding/spur with the points set against it. this DCC wiring option is obviously no use on a DC layout as all the sidings would be live and isolating a loco would mean switching power to all the sidings like DC wiring. The implication being that you need additional feeders or turnouts configured to be non-power routing... an option not available on all turnouts.
to make ANY turnout non power routing all you do is use insulated rail joiners from the turnout. but yes, you do need additional feeders, but it is my understanding that that is usually how DCC layouts are wired from the main bus. which brings me back to the differences in DC and DCC wiring not being 100% comopatible with switching back and forth between the two. so if you choose the switching option you have to limit the DCC options or invest money in many switches and wiring to allow full DCC options.
On the subject of manuals, I am a Digitrax SEB user, and happy with it. I did find it frustrating and confusing dealing with the manual at times, and I did have to use it a fair bit at first. But the learning eventually kicked in, and I now use the manual perhaps twice a year for performing rare functions, such as Ops Switch settings...I need to refer to the table to get the right value, for example. But is this any different from any system, assuming they have the cited Ops Switch that Digitrax uses? Does any of us buy a TV or a cable box and not have to read the manual to figure out how to set the clock between auto and manual setting mode? Menus vary, and some are more intuitive than others.
Anyway, I wanted to admit that it took some doing, but after a bit it was clear sailing, and like jalajoie, I run my system and perform all its function and CV changes from memory at this point. For individual decoders, of course I must refer to those particular manuals because they are very different. Loksound vs QSI for maximum CV3/4 and master volume settings, for examples.
-Crandell