davidmbedard wrote: Anyways, last time I checked, the Digitrax SFX (the decoder this person is using) is limited to 4 light outputs and just enough sound storage for engine noises (no room yelling at grandma and such).
Anyways, last time I checked, the Digitrax SFX (the decoder this person is using) is limited to 4 light outputs and just enough sound storage for engine noises (no room yelling at grandma and such).
OK, Watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGp-ChboAHk
That is my smallest loco.
It has a SFX064D
The newer version has FOUR times as much memory.
That loco has all the chuff, boiler, hiss, brake, cab chatter, (the engineere calls out the mile markers) bell, crossing whistle, one two and three toots,
PLUS The entire rendition of Dixie featured in the video.
The SX064 has SIX lighting outputs. Plus 18 sound functions.
The Loco was to small for the current "G" scale decoder, So I had to use an older one without transponding. The motor decoder has 8 function outputs.
Because neither the SFX064 nor the motor decoder has Transponding, the loco has a TF4, Thats 4 more lighting outputs.
So It has a total of 16 function outputs for smoke, lghts and couplers plus 18 trigerable sounds for a total of 34 functions.
OK, so most of those do not need to be controled from the throttle, In fact I ran out of things to connect the wires to, there are at least 6 unused wires. And I'm using four of them just for firebox and smokestack flicker. I was also runing out of room, there are three speakers. The motor decoder had to be cut in half and folded to fit it in the firebox.
Even though most of the functions have been grouped (all the different whistles are on F2) and many are automated, so most of the 34 functions have no corresponding key on the DT400.
Still This loco, like all my locos uses the same key assignements.
Go back and look at my list. F5 if pressed while moving controls a loco specific function. On this loco pressing F5 while moving plays Dixie.
Now where did you get this garbage about not enough room for grandma?
davidmbedard wrote: Wait a minute, the 20 bucks requires that you are able to recall every function up to and including 28. Also, every function has to have universal appeal, not silly things like lighting up passenger coaches.....
Wait a minute, the 20 bucks requires that you are able to recall every function up to and including 28. Also, every function has to have universal appeal, not silly things like lighting up passenger coaches.....
Sure I can, well most of the time, They are the same for all locos, and besides, that is what little labels are for.
OK, let's eliminate the silly lights in the passenger coaches (which would also eliminate the lights and markers in the cabooses.
That still dosen't eliminate the the need for F0.
Do you propose we eliminate F0 and run loco without lights?
davidmbedard wrote: I still dont see the need for 28 functions.My rules...1. You have to be able to remember them.2. They need to have universal appeal (be applicable to more than one application and able to be applicable as a standard ala NMRA).3. Door closing and toilet flushed dont count. 4. Automatic noises dont count (nood need to turn the compressor on and off when it is an automatic function). David B
I still dont see the need for 28 functions.
My rules...
1. You have to be able to remember them.
2. They need to have universal appeal (be applicable to more than one application and able to be applicable as a standard ala NMRA).
3. Door closing and toilet flushed dont count.
4. Automatic noises dont count (nood need to turn the compressor on and off when it is an automatic function).
David B
1 I can remeber them. They are the same for every loco.
2 Oh, so no new features should be added unless every single person decideds they need it?
3 I don't have a single function button on my throttle assigned to door closing or toilet flushing. Those features are automated.
4 Don't think I mentioned using a single button for an automatc function.
Pick yer favorite charity and pay up.
Paul3 wrote: bobgrosh,In order:F0: I assume you're MU'ing you DCC decoder equipped passenger cars to your locos. I hope you know that it doesn't make sense for the passenger car lights to have anything to do with movement. Also, loco headlights are not always used, depending on era.No, each car has it's own address... It makes no sense to me to turn on/off the loco lights once moving. So when moving, F0 starts the lights coming on through the length of the train as though the crew was turning them on. This is normally only used at dawn or dusk, and prevents burning up bulbs by having them on all the time.F1: Um, bells also ring on locos when stopped, depending on road and era. And onboard station annoucements? Seriously? You really want to broadcast the sound of an onboard station announcement, something that you never hear from outside the train?On steamers with hand operated bells, the bell goes off shortly after a stop. For mechanical bells, the go off after a minute or so.If you are thinking of the station master arrival, departures, and ambient sounds, those come from a track-side speaker (look up "Fantasonics") system. The on board sound cards in passenger cars do play conductor and passenger boarding and debarking sounds. Doors opening, luggage shuffling, Children when they first spot "grandma", etc. and yes, you can hear them. especially on the open air coaches.F2: I can only imagine that little effect in a yard switcher. It'd be a toot-fest for sure. And on mainline trains, wildly unrealistic. A crossing whistle for under 29? Perhaps I was unclear. If you don't press the F2 button you don't get a toot. If you want two short toots to alert the crew that you are about to move the loco forward, just make sure the loco direction is set to forward, and press F2 once. For the prototypical three toots for backing up. just set the direction to reverse and press F2 once. I did this because DCC is just not responsive enough to provide the rapid toot pattern normally done on real railroads. Other sound cards often use three or four separate keys to accomplish different whistle signals. I programed the SDF in the SFX card to put all the whistle signals on F2 and play the appropriate sound depending on the context of when you press F2. The only automatic toot is the single toot when the loco comes to a stop, and that can be turned off via a CV for road locos. 29? sorry, that is speed step 29. I slow down when approaching a town, It is just convenient to have the entire crossing sequence blown with a single F2 press when approaching the town, at speed step 30 or above, I like to use the Digitrax/Tsunami "Playable Whistle" Again, rather than put the crossing whistle on another Function key, I just made it context sensitive. F3: What is that about? Passenger cars and cabooses would stop listening to...what?Lights and sounds can be activate in the cars from the loco throttle. IE. turning on the marker lights on the loco will also turn on the caboose marker lights. Passenger cars begin turning on vestibule lights in preparation for a stop at a passenger station by "Listening" to the loco. Cars automatically begin listening and figure out which loco is pulling them, and the car order as soon as any loco pulls them through the bounds between two Transponding zones. F3, which normally only makes a coupler crash sound, now serves two purposes. "ON" triggers the coupler crash sound, "OFF" tells the cars to stop listening to the commands set to that loco and wait for another (or possibly the same loco) to re connect to the cars. I had to have a way to tell the cars that they are no longer connected to a loco. After all, once the loco has left the cars on a siding you would not want the sound card in the parked passenger cars playing wheel squeal, brake release or other sounds when the loco is miles away. The F3 key just made sense.F4: This, I get.F5: Huh? But markers are for when the train is moving, too. OK, I wasn't clear on this one. You set the color of the markers when stopped. On real train this might involve changing lanterns. You can change the markers to red green or white depending on the service you are running and what section of the train this loco is assigned to. Once moving the marker lights can not be changed, and F5 serves some other purpose, depending on the loco.F6: Diesels and steamers also smoke while stopped. The auto cutoff of the smoke is controlled by a qualifier in the function setup for all FX3 Digitrax decoders. Just check the FX3 function setup guide for the qualifiers. Also, even though the cab light and smoke use different colored wires on the decoder, they can both be mapped to F6 and each have their own set of modifiers and FX3 effects. Mapping them both to F6 was just one more way to save those precious buttons on the DT400F7: Toggle turnouts? What the heck for? Just use the SWITCH command...that's what it's there for.Switch commands still work. So, a visitor can, in the dark, press the power button (KEYPRESS 1) to illuminate the switch, read the number, press SW (2) then the number (3)(4)(5) then try to figure out if he needs to press (T) or (C) OK, thats six key presses... in the dark... by a visitor. Easier, The visitor see the switch he is approaching is set the wrong way. Press F7. Done. F8: Wouldn't it be better if you could adjust the volume on the move?Sure would be, If I had 12 more functions. F9: Learn mode? What is that? How does that work? Do you have GPS in each loco?No, All I'm using is Transponding. When running in learn mode (F9 ON) I can easily set the max speed for any Transponding zone. Max speed is only used when the loco is released from a throttle, It does not limit the operator. See 10,11 and 12 AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST.F10, F11, F12: Again, station annoucements? Here's a thought. Why don't you put a sound playing device at each station? That way, you can remove some of the features needed from a mobile decoder. In any event, I have ridden a lot of trains over the years, and while I've heard conductor's say that they are a "Canton Jct. train" or an "Attleboro train", I've never heard them say the station name for where they are. Most people assume that since they are already there, they know where they are. Conductors will call on the train that they have arrived at a station, but I've never heard it from outside the train.These have nothing to do with sounds. Often we get called to dinner, or a session has to be suspended for some reason. Or I may be running a train and suddenly be asked to help someone else. For those situations: Press F10,11 or 12 depending the station, then press <LOCO> and <DISPatch> The train will slow to the learned speed limits, proceed to the selected station and stop.So my reaction to your list of functions is that I think it's not a viable list. There's a whole lot in there that doesn't make much sense, things that can easily be accomodated using stationary decoders, block detection, and transponding. I might as well list 28 different horns or air releases so as to demand 28 functions. Sorry, I just grabed my list from a file i printed for guest. Didn't know i had to explain them in detail. I hope I did a better job this time.As to using stationary decoders, I can't think on one of these functions that would be better done with stationary decoders. Of course I do have stationary decoder to control turnouts, signals, lots of building lights, trackside sounds and accessories, but they have nothing to do with the actual lights and sounds in the cars and loco. As far as block detection goes, I have 6 BDL cards and not one track wire connected to them. They are all used for Transponding only. So David, IMHO, your $20 is safe...so far.Naaa. Pay Up.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
bobgrosh,In order:F0: I assume you're MU'ing you DCC decoder equipped passenger cars to your locos. I hope you know that it doesn't make sense for the passenger car lights to have anything to do with movement. Also, loco headlights are not always used, depending on era.
No, each car has it's own address... It makes no sense to me to turn on/off the loco lights once moving. So when moving, F0 starts the lights coming on through the length of the train as though the crew was turning them on. This is normally only used at dawn or dusk, and prevents burning up bulbs by having them on all the time.
F1: Um, bells also ring on locos when stopped, depending on road and era. And onboard station annoucements? Seriously? You really want to broadcast the sound of an onboard station announcement, something that you never hear from outside the train?
On steamers with hand operated bells, the bell goes off shortly after a stop. For mechanical bells, the go off after a minute or so.
If you are thinking of the station master arrival, departures, and ambient sounds, those come from a track-side speaker (look up "Fantasonics") system. The on board sound cards in passenger cars do play conductor and passenger boarding and debarking sounds. Doors opening, luggage shuffling, Children when they first spot "grandma", etc. and yes, you can hear them. especially on the open air coaches.
F2: I can only imagine that little effect in a yard switcher. It'd be a toot-fest for sure. And on mainline trains, wildly unrealistic. A crossing whistle for under 29?
Perhaps I was unclear. If you don't press the F2 button you don't get a toot. If you want two short toots to alert the crew that you are about to move the loco forward, just make sure the loco direction is set to forward, and press F2 once. For the prototypical three toots for backing up. just set the direction to reverse and press F2 once. I did this because DCC is just not responsive enough to provide the rapid toot pattern normally done on real railroads. Other sound cards often use three or four separate keys to accomplish different whistle signals. I programed the SDF in the SFX card to put all the whistle signals on F2 and play the appropriate sound depending on the context of when you press F2. The only automatic toot is the single toot when the loco comes to a stop, and that can be turned off via a CV for road locos.
29? sorry, that is speed step 29. I slow down when approaching a town, It is just convenient to have the entire crossing sequence blown with a single F2 press when approaching the town, at speed step 30 or above, I like to use the Digitrax/Tsunami "Playable Whistle" Again, rather than put the crossing whistle on another Function key, I just made it context sensitive.
F3: What is that about? Passenger cars and cabooses would stop listening to...what?
Lights and sounds can be activate in the cars from the loco throttle. IE. turning on the marker lights on the loco will also turn on the caboose marker lights. Passenger cars begin turning on vestibule lights in preparation for a stop at a passenger station by "Listening" to the loco. Cars automatically begin listening and figure out which loco is pulling them, and the car order as soon as any loco pulls them through the bounds between two Transponding zones. F3, which normally only makes a coupler crash sound, now serves two purposes. "ON" triggers the coupler crash sound, "OFF" tells the cars to stop listening to the commands set to that loco and wait for another (or possibly the same loco) to re connect to the cars. I had to have a way to tell the cars that they are no longer connected to a loco. After all, once the loco has left the cars on a siding you would not want the sound card in the parked passenger cars playing wheel squeal, brake release or other sounds when the loco is miles away. The F3 key just made sense.
F4: This, I get.
F5: Huh? But markers are for when the train is moving, too.
OK, I wasn't clear on this one. You set the color of the markers when stopped. On real train this might involve changing lanterns. You can change the markers to red green or white depending on the service you are running and what section of the train this loco is assigned to. Once moving the marker lights can not be changed, and F5 serves some other purpose, depending on the loco.
F6: Diesels and steamers also smoke while stopped.
The auto cutoff of the smoke is controlled by a qualifier in the function setup for all FX3 Digitrax decoders. Just check the FX3 function setup guide for the qualifiers. Also, even though the cab light and smoke use different colored wires on the decoder, they can both be mapped to F6 and each have their own set of modifiers and FX3 effects. Mapping them both to F6 was just one more way to save those precious buttons on the DT400
F7: Toggle turnouts? What the heck for? Just use the SWITCH command...that's what it's there for.
Switch commands still work. So, a visitor can, in the dark, press the power button (KEYPRESS 1) to illuminate the switch, read the number, press SW (2) then the number (3)(4)(5) then try to figure out if he needs to press (T) or (C)
OK, thats six key presses... in the dark... by a visitor.
Easier, The visitor see the switch he is approaching is set the wrong way. Press F7. Done.
F8: Wouldn't it be better if you could adjust the volume on the move?
Sure would be, If I had 12 more functions.
F9: Learn mode? What is that? How does that work? Do you have GPS in each loco?
No, All I'm using is Transponding. When running in learn mode (F9 ON) I can easily set the max speed for any Transponding zone. Max speed is only used when the loco is released from a throttle, It does not limit the operator. See 10,11 and 12 AT THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST.
F10, F11, F12: Again, station annoucements? Here's a thought. Why don't you put a sound playing device at each station? That way, you can remove some of the features needed from a mobile decoder. In any event, I have ridden a lot of trains over the years, and while I've heard conductor's say that they are a "Canton Jct. train" or an "Attleboro train", I've never heard them say the station name for where they are. Most people assume that since they are already there, they know where they are. Conductors will call on the train that they have arrived at a station, but I've never heard it from outside the train.
These have nothing to do with sounds. Often we get called to dinner, or a session has to be suspended for some reason. Or I may be running a train and suddenly be asked to help someone else.
For those situations: Press F10,11 or 12 depending the station, then press <LOCO> and <DISPatch> The train will slow to the learned speed limits, proceed to the selected station and stop.
So my reaction to your list of functions is that I think it's not a viable list. There's a whole lot in there that doesn't make much sense, things that can easily be accomodated using stationary decoders, block detection, and transponding. I might as well list 28 different horns or air releases so as to demand 28 functions.
Sorry, I just grabed my list from a file i printed for guest. Didn't know i had to explain them in detail. I hope I did a better job this time.
As to using stationary decoders, I can't think on one of these functions that would be better done with stationary decoders. Of course I do have stationary decoder to control turnouts, signals, lots of building lights, trackside sounds and accessories, but they have nothing to do with the actual lights and sounds in the cars and loco. As far as block detection goes, I have 6 BDL cards and not one track wire connected to them. They are all used for Transponding only. So David, IMHO, your $20 is safe...so far.
Naaa. Pay Up.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
So my reaction to your list of functions is that I think it's not a viable list. There's a whole lot in there that doesn't make much sense, things that can easily be accomodated using stationary decoders, block detection, and transponding. I might as well list 28 different horns or air releases so as to demand 28 functions.So David, IMHO, your $20 is safe...so far.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
locoworks wrote: davidmbedard wrote: it is ok saying you're not interested in more functions etc, but loco's will be coming out the factories with more than 12 functions fitted as standard so any control system you are looking to purchase will be at a disadvantage if it can't make your new all singing and dancing loco with onboard sound burp and fart in all the right places. i also think that companies should standardise what function works what sound for steam and diesels.as i posted elsewhere i had 2 bachmann loco's with factory fitted sound ( loksound decoders ) and they didn't use the same functions for the same actions between their own loco's!! stupid idea....wow...hold old is this guy?David B 43, it was an attempt at humour. sorry if i offended but i am from over the pond.
davidmbedard wrote: it is ok saying you're not interested in more functions etc, but loco's will be coming out the factories with more than 12 functions fitted as standard so any control system you are looking to purchase will be at a disadvantage if it can't make your new all singing and dancing loco with onboard sound burp and fart in all the right places. i also think that companies should standardise what function works what sound for steam and diesels.as i posted elsewhere i had 2 bachmann loco's with factory fitted sound ( loksound decoders ) and they didn't use the same functions for the same actions between their own loco's!! stupid idea....wow...hold old is this guy?David B
it is ok saying you're not interested in more functions etc, but loco's will be coming out the factories with more than 12 functions fitted as standard so any control system you are looking to purchase will be at a disadvantage if it can't make your new all singing and dancing loco with onboard sound burp and fart in all the right places. i also think that companies should standardise what function works what sound for steam and diesels.as i posted elsewhere i had 2 bachmann loco's with factory fitted sound ( loksound decoders ) and they didn't use the same functions for the same actions between their own loco's!! stupid idea.
...wow...hold old is this guy?
43, it was an attempt at humour. sorry if i offended but i am from over the pond.
I thought it was funny when I read it. But I can see whole new dimension for those who want to reproduce a certain scene from Blazing Saddles on their layouts.
Irv
Even after spending months writing SDF's to make sound context sensitive (IE: six different whistle signals on F2 depending on speed, direction of loco), And I am still out of Functions.
So, to count up my functions....
F0=Forward and Rear loco lights when stopped, passenger train lights when moving.
F1=Moving - Bell On/Off, (Bell auto off when stopped) Stopped - Station announcement (Zone dependent)
F2=Stopped - Two toots when FWD, three in REV, Playable over SPD30, crossing under SPD29 single toot automatic on stop.
F3=Couple coupler clash trigger, uncouple (Uncouple causes passenger cars/cabooses to stop listening to loco cmds)
F4=Steam Let Off when stopped, Doppler, echo or tunnel when moving (Zone dependent)
F5=Markers - When set to ON and stopped FWD set to white, REV set to green. When set to off and stopped, set to red (on/off with F0) When moving, operates loco specific accessory.
F6=Cab light when stopped, Smoke Enable when moving (auto off when stopped)
F7=Toggle next turnout - FWD ahead, REV behind last car.
F8=Stooped FWD increase volume REV decrease volume, Moving-Wheel squeal
F9 Learn Mode
F10 Stop at Ruby Springs
F11 Stop at Mill Creek
F12 Stop at Peach Falls
In Learn Mode:
- - - F10 Learn Max speed for this Zone
- - - F11 Learn Signal at this position.
- - - F12 Reset all Learned Speed limits and memorize Home.
As you can see, I am limited to just three stations per loco, and, I have to basically use the F9 key as a "shift" function. And 3/4 of the "gimic" sounds are not accessable.
HECK YES
28 functions for me.
As to duplex, well. I could give a rats behind for acquiring locos wirelessly... In fact I hope they allow an option to prevent it.
Will I want Duplex. YOU BET, for the Transponding "Find" function, CV read-back, semaphore display and throttle messages. Especially Throttle messages.
So David, You can donate the twenty bucks to charity in my name.
Bob
selector wrote: davidmbedard wrote: ...The offer is still there to anyone who can tell me an actual NEED for 28 functions.....20 bucks...David BWell, I am kinda partial to the fire grating being turned with F24, and the clinkers thwacking against the sides of the ash pit with F39. I agree with you entirely, David. Mute, lights, horn, bell, and sometimes I play with steam hiss (F4 on the Tsunami's I have). I guess diesels and modern excursion steamers would want some additional lighting control, but the majority of sound decoders provide ambient and random sounds that keep me happy, even annoyed if I forget to either mute them, set their mute levels (QSI), or tune their individual sounds with an applicable CV tweak.-Crandell
davidmbedard wrote: ...The offer is still there to anyone who can tell me an actual NEED for 28 functions.....20 bucks...David B
...
The offer is still there to anyone who can tell me an actual NEED for 28 functions.....20 bucks...
Well, I am kinda partial to the fire grating being turned with F24, and the clinkers thwacking against the sides of the ash pit with F39.
I agree with you entirely, David. Mute, lights, horn, bell, and sometimes I play with steam hiss (F4 on the Tsunami's I have). I guess diesels and modern excursion steamers would want some additional lighting control, but the majority of sound decoders provide ambient and random sounds that keep me happy, even annoyed if I forget to either mute them, set their mute levels (QSI), or tune their individual sounds with an applicable CV tweak.
-Crandell
so you want all the noises, but the chip decides when you get them? so random is ok?? i suppose it's ok for some. who picks what TV channels you can watch and when you can watch them??
davidmbedard wrote: much to my horror, it seems to be only 4 positions on mainline use. i think i got confused with some loco's having the lamp on the smokebox door and others having it mounted on the smokebox above the door. loco's usually carry the lamps on the lamp irons, so they can be in place and not lit. it is important to point out that these are marker lights used to denote the type of train. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/3-sigs/bellhead.htmYes, we had the same thing in North America. Now, how will you we lighting that feature? If they are like what they were over here, then there were 3 color, red, white and green. Typically modelers cannot model all 3 colors, but if they did, It would be controlled by a few upper functions (assuming you are using 3 leds) and a light box. So that is 3 functions. Your headlight is another function, but the rear light is the same function as the front headlight (F0). So that is 4 functions for the lights (again, assuming you can actually light the markers with 3 different leds). So, to count up my functions....F0=Forward and Rear lightsF1=BellF2=WhistleF3=Short WhistleF4=Steam Let OffF5=Marker Light 1F6=Marker Light 2F7=Marker Light 3F8=MuteWith this scheme (and assuming 3 or 4 other functions for various IMPORTANT sounds and not gimmiky sounds), you can see that you are well covered with 12 functions. I still dont see the need for 28 functions.The offer is still there to anyone who can tell me an actual NEED for 28 functions.....20 bucks...David B
much to my horror, it seems to be only 4 positions on mainline use. i think i got confused with some loco's having the lamp on the smokebox door and others having it mounted on the smokebox above the door. loco's usually carry the lamps on the lamp irons, so they can be in place and not lit. it is important to point out that these are marker lights used to denote the type of train. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/3-sigs/bellhead.htm
much to my horror, it seems to be only 4 positions on mainline use. i think i got confused with some loco's having the lamp on the smokebox door and others having it mounted on the smokebox above the door. loco's usually carry the lamps on the lamp irons, so they can be in place and not lit. it is important to point out that these are marker lights used to denote the type of train.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/3-sigs/bellhead.htm
Yes, we had the same thing in North America. Now, how will you we lighting that feature? If they are like what they were over here, then there were 3 color, red, white and green. Typically modelers cannot model all 3 colors, but if they did, It would be controlled by a few upper functions (assuming you are using 3 leds) and a light box. So that is 3 functions. Your headlight is another function, but the rear light is the same function as the front headlight (F0). So that is 4 functions for the lights (again, assuming you can actually light the markers with 3 different leds).
F0=Forward and Rear lights
F1=Bell
F2=Whistle
F3=Short Whistle
F4=Steam Let Off
F5=Marker Light 1
F6=Marker Light 2
F7=Marker Light 3
F8=Mute
With this scheme (and assuming 3 or 4 other functions for various IMPORTANT sounds and not gimmiky sounds), you can see that you are well covered with 12 functions. I still dont see the need for 28 functions.
how would be led's, if you look on youtube there are a few videos of british stuff with lights and sound and smoke. there is someone who makes a suitable looking lamp out of sub min led's. the sting would be that they could only be one colour, so white at the front and red at the back. there is a compamy that sells bi colour red/white leds, but ofcourse the function wires are only one polarity, perhaps there is a safe way to wire 2 decoders to the one led??
JMRI makes it easy to make and break consists with a few keystrokes.
I am looking forward to the new Digitrax Arrivals, they will be purchased very quickly for my road.
davidmbedard wrote: extra functions don't have to mean sound. having lights controlled individually is a great help for british ( maybe US too ) diesels and steam . depending on whether light engine or with a load and whether the load is passengers or freight, or even what type of freight. different light 'formations' are displayed ( even on steam loco's there were 5 different front light possitions and combinations of the possitions denoted the type of train ), so that's 5 functions at the front!! then the tender rear ( similar to the front if light engine ), cab lights, firebox flicker etc, then we get onto sound and a moving coupler for anywhere uncoupling with no magnets in the track. it may not be everybodies cup of tea, but 8 or even 12 functions can soon become limiting especially in the larger scales.Moving coupler? Hardly realistic......Can you please share pics of British steam locomotives that have 5 light positions in the front. I would love to see that.David B
extra functions don't have to mean sound. having lights controlled individually is a great help for british ( maybe US too ) diesels and steam . depending on whether light engine or with a load and whether the load is passengers or freight, or even what type of freight. different light 'formations' are displayed ( even on steam loco's there were 5 different front light possitions and combinations of the possitions denoted the type of train ), so that's 5 functions at the front!! then the tender rear ( similar to the front if light engine ), cab lights, firebox flicker etc, then we get onto sound and a moving coupler for anywhere uncoupling with no magnets in the track. it may not be everybodies cup of tea, but 8 or even 12 functions can soon become limiting especially in the larger scales.
Moving coupler? Hardly realistic......
Can you please share pics of British steam locomotives that have 5 light positions in the front. I would love to see that.
jwils1 wrote: Okay, if I understand correctly, when you change the direction of travel of the consist, you are simply selecting "reverse" instead of "forward". So now with the new leading loco leading the consist in the other direction from which is was previously moving, your throttle reads "reverse". And you are still running speed and direction from the original lead loco number. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding?Jerry
Okay, if I understand correctly, when you change the direction of travel of the consist, you are simply selecting "reverse" instead of "forward". So now with the new leading loco leading the consist in the other direction from which is was previously moving, your throttle reads "reverse". And you are still running speed and direction from the original lead loco number. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding?
Jerry
Quite correct, unless you look at the throttle display, the feel of the consist is exactly the same as with NCE.
Jack W.
jalajoie wrote: With the DT400 to change end of the consist : First shut the light on the former leading loco and change the direction of travel of the consist , next recall the now new leading loco (use the left knob encoder to recall that engine it is always the last one entered in the consist), put the lights on and go, (4 keystrokes). This is done on the fly with both systems, very easy.
Rio Grande vs. Santa Fe.....the battle is over but the glory remains!
jwils 1
Here is an extract of a post I made on the Siskiyou forum the part about Digitrax consisting is in red.
I did some experiments consisting two locos back to back with a NCE Power Cab and a Digitrax Zephyr.I used a brand new Power Cab with Rev. 1.28 software and a 6 years old Digitrax Zephyr with a DT400 throttle to conduct these tests.I also used 4 locos, 2 Atlas Dash 8-40CW without sound, equipped with two identical NCE D14SR V3.5 decoders. Also 2 other Atlas Dash 8-40CW with QSI sound were used.The decoders on all 4 locos were left with their factory default setting, except for the address which was set to each loco cab #, the appropriate value in CV2 to insure every locos were crawling at speed step 1 and a value of 3 for acceleration and deceleration rate for every locos CV 3 and 4 respectively.First test was with the Power Cab and the two non sound units. I made an advance consist with both locos operating back to back. The consist address was 127 and the leading loco was # 7300 and the trailing loco was # 838. I made sure the stack contained both consist bearing the cab # of each loco. This consist did not behave as I was expecting. Sure enough I could toggle back and forth between each end of the consist with the recall button however the lights did not react as I wanted. If I was using #7300 as lead loco the front light of loco 7300 was on, which is OK but the rear light of loco 838 the trailing loco was also on, which is not what I wanted and vice versa. What I wanted is only the leading loco with headlight on and the trailing completely dark. Fortunately I know my way around at the bit level of the most popular CV, I was able to correct this problem in programing the proper values in CV22, I was expecting better handling of consists from NCE. Why should I tinker with CV values?When I did the same test with Digitrax Universal consist, everything worked as expected, trailing loco completely dark, no need to play with CV22.Now the double ending aspect of the equation is almost the same key stroke for key stroke with both systems. With the Power Cab to change end of the consist : First shut the light on the former leading loco, next recall the now new leading loco, put the lights on and go. (3 keystrokes)
With the DT400 to change end of the consist : First shut the light on the former leading loco and change the direction of travel of the consist , next recall the now new leading loco (use the left knob encoder to recall that engine it is always the last one entered in the consist), put the lights on and go (using the right knob), (4 keystrokes). This is done on the fly with both systems, very easy.With the sound locos I didn't have the problems I had with NCE and lighting, because QSI does not follow NMRA recommended practices for CV22. Both the Power Cab and the Zephyr handled the consists the same way in every aspect, lighting as I expected and only the leading loco respond to the bell and whistle. Unfortunately with both system every other functions were also directed to the leading loco only. Some tinkering with CV21 is required here. 3 keystrokes are required with NCE to change end of the advance consist, the same task is performed with 4 keystrokes with Digitrax Universal consist and the DT400 throttle.
jalajoie wrote: Double ended consists has been available with Digitrax since the get go. What is new to NCE is old school with Digitrax. I have been using double ended consisting with Digitrax since the year 2000 first with a DT100R and now with a DT400R throttle. It takes only 4 keystrokes to change end of the consist and it is done on the fly. I posted a while back how to do it.
Double ended consists has been available with Digitrax since the get go. What is new to NCE is old school with Digitrax. I have been using double ended consisting with Digitrax since the year 2000 first with a DT100R and now with a DT400R throttle. It takes only 4 keystrokes to change end of the consist and it is done on the fly. I posted a while back how to do it.
Jack:
I did a search on this and couldn't seem to find it. Can you please point me to your previous post on this. Thanks.
davidmbedard wrote: locoworks wrote:well the light is finally at the end of the tunnel after 4 years of waiting, but why haven't they sorted the higher functions control at the same time?? my guess is marketing, flood the market with duplex DT402R's and when sales slow down release the DT403R? maybe with a UR93?? and get to where they should be knowish. using the A10,B11 and C12 buttons as A1#. B2# and C3# instead would make using the higer functions just like TV controls. you press A1# followed by 6 for function 16 etc. not rocket science. that gives you upto 40 switches for functions ( remember to count 0 for lights ). i will be getting a set, but dissapointed that it won't be all there just yet. can you have your current radio stuff upgraded to duplex?? not just the DT400, but the UR91 and the DT100 and 300's and UT4's??I will personally give 20 bucks (USD or Canadian) to anyone here on these forums or from anywhere else that can find a use for, and remember, 40 function in a decoder. Personally, anything beyond 6 is just useless and I think that Digitrax feels the same way.MRC decoder 'feature' 28 buttons that you can press and do 'stuff'. Unfortunately, about half of the 'stuff' has to do with horn selection, bell selection, volume controls (they only have 4 settings....loud....louder....loudest and off) and other useless things that you will never, ever use OR remember.So, to sum-up, I feel that making a selling point of 28 functions on a throttle is a bit like Rat's Venom that will cure all.... David B
locoworks wrote:well the light is finally at the end of the tunnel after 4 years of waiting, but why haven't they sorted the higher functions control at the same time?? my guess is marketing, flood the market with duplex DT402R's and when sales slow down release the DT403R? maybe with a UR93?? and get to where they should be knowish. using the A10,B11 and C12 buttons as A1#. B2# and C3# instead would make using the higer functions just like TV controls. you press A1# followed by 6 for function 16 etc. not rocket science. that gives you upto 40 switches for functions ( remember to count 0 for lights ). i will be getting a set, but dissapointed that it won't be all there just yet. can you have your current radio stuff upgraded to duplex?? not just the DT400, but the UR91 and the DT100 and 300's and UT4's??
I will personally give 20 bucks (USD or Canadian) to anyone here on these forums or from anywhere else that can find a use for, and remember, 40 function in a decoder. Personally, anything beyond 6 is just useless and I think that Digitrax feels the same way.
MRC decoder 'feature' 28 buttons that you can press and do 'stuff'. Unfortunately, about half of the 'stuff' has to do with horn selection, bell selection, volume controls (they only have 4 settings....loud....louder....loudest and off) and other useless things that you will never, ever use OR remember.
So, to sum-up, I feel that making a selling point of 28 functions on a throttle is a bit like Rat's Venom that will cure all....
Paul3 wrote: jbinkley60,According to the message I got from the Digitrax Yahoo group, the new duplex throttles are to be called DT402D and UT4D, not "R". The end "D" is for duplex, I suppose.There is one other major benefit for "normal" duplex radio besides just acquiring new addresses. Now, one will also be able to make and break consists without being plugged in. This one still bites people in the butt at my club from time to time.The other upgrades would be things like reading a decoder without being plugged in (on the mainline in a transponding section, if nothing else), cab signalling (those semaphores in the upper corners of the display), and using the "FIND" command (with transponding). It may perhaps lead to things like a speedometer and other abilities we don't know about just yet.locoworks,I doubt that one would need anything like a "UR93" for higher functions in any "DT500" scenario. For example, when the UR91 first came out, there was only F0-F8 (the DT100R). Now they are up to F12 with the DT400 and UT4, yet we're still using the same UR91.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
jbinkley60,According to the message I got from the Digitrax Yahoo group, the new duplex throttles are to be called DT402D and UT4D, not "R". The end "D" is for duplex, I suppose.There is one other major benefit for "normal" duplex radio besides just acquiring new addresses. Now, one will also be able to make and break consists without being plugged in. This one still bites people in the butt at my club from time to time.The other upgrades would be things like reading a decoder without being plugged in (on the mainline in a transponding section, if nothing else), cab signalling (those semaphores in the upper corners of the display), and using the "FIND" command (with transponding). It may perhaps lead to things like a speedometer and other abilities we don't know about just yet.locoworks,I doubt that one would need anything like a "UR93" for higher functions in any "DT500" scenario. For example, when the UR91 first came out, there was only F0-F8 (the DT100R). Now they are up to F12 with the DT400 and UT4, yet we're still using the same UR91.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Paul,
I might have gotten the part number wrong. I only looked at it once. It was a DT402 and I thought it was an R but it could have been a D. I assumed the 2 was for 2 way. There was a few people at the booth and I was paying more attention to doing the wireless acquire than looking at the part number.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
Paul3 wrote: jbinkley60,According to the message I got from the Digitrax Yahoo group, the new duplex throttles are to be called DT402D and UT4D, not "R". The end "D" is for duplex, I suppose.locoworks,I doubt that one would need anything like a "UR93" for higher functions in any "DT500" scenario. For example, when the UR91 first came out, there was only F0-F8 (the DT100R). Now they are up to F12 with the DT400 and UT4, yet we're still using the same UR91.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
jbinkley60,According to the message I got from the Digitrax Yahoo group, the new duplex throttles are to be called DT402D and UT4D, not "R". The end "D" is for duplex, I suppose.locoworks,I doubt that one would need anything like a "UR93" for higher functions in any "DT500" scenario. For example, when the UR91 first came out, there was only F0-F8 (the DT100R). Now they are up to F12 with the DT400 and UT4, yet we're still using the same UR91.Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
my point was that the A B C buttons could be used to give the rest of the functions as they do naff all on the DT400 as is, so why a wait for something new to get the higher functions? i will be dissapointed IF a 'NEW' rather than an upgraded throttle is required to get the extra functions. but i do see where you are going re the UR91.
jrbernier wrote: If 'new function' is F28 functions, I could care less. Controlling 'coupler clank', 'air hose pop', & 'opening/closing the cab door' sound really are sort of useless.Jim Bernier
If 'new function' is F28 functions, I could care less. Controlling 'coupler clank', 'air hose pop', & 'opening/closing the cab door' sound really are sort of useless.
Jim Bernier
jrbernier wrote: Now, if they would have introduced 'reverse consist ends' like NDE has done; that would be usable, but something I can live without. Jim Bernier
Now, if they would have introduced 'reverse consist ends' like NDE has done; that would be usable, but something I can live without.
This is great news. I have been waiting for Digitrax to upgrade to duplex raido for a while. I want to get some of the new UT-4R, but was waiting for Duplex. I have two DT-100R, two DT-300R and a DT-400R. I had another DT-100 and two UT-1 which I sold because they could not be upgraded to radio. I will probably send my DT-400R in for upgrade and just buy the new duplex UT-4. (I use decoder pro so my DT-400R is for running trains only and not for programming.)
My radio throttles work fine but I think it is a major problem to have to pull the 9v batteries out of the throttles after use to keep the batteries from running down. (I do use recharagable 9v batteries.) The UT-4R has a sleep mode to turn the throttle off.
Having lots of functions is not a major issue with me. I only have one sound locomotive (I will be upgrading other locomotives in the future). I only use the lights, horn and bell. I use ground throws for turnouts.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
jrbernier wrote: Since the 'Demo' in GB, the direction of Digitrax has been known(and this UD 'demo' confirms it). I was aware of the DT400R & UR4R upgrade path. For our club, I will just buy a UR92 for those that upgrade throttles or buy a new DT402R. The DT100/DT100R is no longer available(parts), so I would not expect any upgrade path there. The DT300 series as well may not be in the upgrade path. Anyway, this is 'good new's...Jim Bernier
Since the 'Demo' in GB, the direction of Digitrax has been known(and this UD 'demo' confirms it). I was aware of the DT400R & UR4R upgrade path. For our club, I will just buy a UR92 for those that upgrade throttles or buy a new DT402R. The DT100/DT100R is no longer available(parts), so I would not expect any upgrade path there. The DT300 series as well may not be in the upgrade path.
Anyway, this is 'good new's...
The upgrade path you describe is exactly what Digitrax said they were targeting with how they introduced full duplex. Aside from the competitive aspect, it is really a minor upgrade. I concur on the higher functions. I doubt I'd ever use them unless they brought some significant functionality. However, having Digitrax provide this type of an upgrade path without replacing/upgrading command stations, boosters and rearchitecting Loconet is extremely important. Have a separate receiver with the UR92s and not making this an all or nothing upgrade also continues with your investment protection.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
jbinkley60 wrote: In speaking with him I got the feeling that Digitrax didn't see the move to full dpulex as a major functional increase with huge implications but more of an emotional item since the only new functionality that full fuplex provides is acquiring new locomotives without plugging in.
In speaking with him I got the feeling that Digitrax didn't see the move to full dpulex as a major functional increase with huge implications but more of an emotional item since the only new functionality that full fuplex provides is acquiring new locomotives without plugging in.
In the light of competitive activity it seems very odd to me that this upgrade would be so limited in its scope.
I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand I am thrilled that there is an upgrade path for all my existing equipment that does not require retiring and replacing my current investment in their hardware. On the other hand, this upgrade does little or nothing to address the competitive issues for someone looking to get into DCC for the first time.
Actually, phrasing it like that makes me feel a lot better because they have clearly decided to take care of the installed base first.
I didn't ask about DT100s and DT300s. He did say that UT4s are upgradable and I believe he also stated that the UR91s are upgradable but since the simplex and full duplex operate on different radio frequencies and are not interoperable, that becomes an all or nothing upgrade point.
In speaking with him I got the feeling that Digitrax didn't see the move to full dpulex as a major functional increase with huge implications but more of an emotional item since the only new functionality that full fuplex provides is acquiring new locomotives without plugging in. I tend to agree with them. I am not clammoring for the full duplex functionality but I'll probably upgrade at some point in the future but if the choice of a spend is a new Atlas Gold locomotive vs upgrading to full duplex, the upgrade will get pushed out while I add to my roster
Hey! Good news indeed! I trust you won't have to wait too much longer for the Duplex system. I'm sure Digitrax is being very thorough about product development before bringing anything out. When they eventually do, it's bound to be a good system and well thought out.
Tom
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