I've spent the better part of the afternoon installing a Tortoise to replace a Peco switch machine that was giving me problems. I've attached it to a Walthers Shinora #3 wye turnout. This is the fourth Tortoise machine I've installed and I have wired them all the same way. Using the Tortoise numbering system for the tabs with 1 being the far left and 8 being the far right, I hooked tabs 1 and 8 to the DPDT switch that controls the throwbar. I wired tab 2 to the red track bus line, tab 3 to the black track bus line, and tab 4 is wired to the frog rails.
I first tested the switch machine and that worked fine. Then I turned on the track power and instantly created a short. I turned off the track power and the first thing I did was check to make sure both frog rails were properly insulated at the ends. They were. I then did several tests connecting only one tab to the track bus lines at a time. I discovered that when the turnout was aligned with the frog being the black rail, I would get a short when connecting the red bus line and if the turnout was aligned with the frog being the red rail, I would get a short when connecting the black rail. It seems as if both bus lines are connecting with the frog no matter which way the turnout is set.
I've double checked my soldering to make sure I didn't accidentally cross the connections. It's difficult to tell with the turnout in place but as far as I could see, there was no cross connection with any of the tabs. This is an older Tortoise machine I've had on hand for a number of years and decided to put it to use. Has the internal wiring changed on the Tortoise machines. If not and I have not crossed the connections, I'm out of ideas for what is wrong. This was a difficult installation because of the configuration of the bench work and I would rather not have to reinstall it. In hindsight, it would have been better to check out the electrical connections before installing the Tortoise but I've already made that mistake. If anyone has any ideas as to what is wrong, it would be appreciated.
One other thing, this turnout is part of a crossover which has also received a new Tortoise and both are connected to the same DPDT switch. The turnouts are electrically isolated from one another and there is about a foot of straight track seperating them. I've paired Tortoise switch machines on another crossover without a problem.
What is the orientation of the Tortoise to the turnout under the table?
I've wired the frogs on many of my Tortoises but I can't always use the same outputs if the Tortoise is turned around 180°.
I do not make the final Rail "A" and rail "B" connection until I have the Tortoise mounted and I can check the continuity of the internal switch output so that it matches the orientation of which way the points are set.
In otherwords, pin 4 will always go to the frog. If the points are oriented so that rail A should be energizing the frog I know to use whichever other pin (either 2 OR 3) and I determine this with a continuity tester (set to audio-beep mode) just to be sure I have the correct orientation.
I use these three position, push terminals to make it easy to swap around the Rail A - Rail B wires as needed:
IMG_8738_fix by Edmund, on Flickr
Violet in the center is wired to frog/pin 4; orange and blue, in my color code, relate to pin 2 and 3 from the Tortoise and white/green is rail A and B respectively.
In a crossover situation, the fulcrum of each Tortoise may cause the internal switch contacts to "close" on opposing outputs. So, you may have to wire rail A to pin 3 on one machine while it will require to be on pin 2 on the other.
I'm not aware of any changes to the internal configuration of the Tortoise DPDT switch.
Good Luck, Ed
gmpullman What is the orientation of the Tortoise to the turnout under the table? I've wired the frogs on many of my Tortoises but I can't always use the same outputs if the Tortoise is turned around 180°. I do not make the final Rail "A" and rail "B" connection until I have the Tortoise mounted and I can check the continuity of the internal switch output so that it matches the orientation of which way the points are set. In otherwords, pin 4 will always go to the frog. If the points are oriented so that rail A should be energizing the frog I know to use whichever other pin (either 2 OR 3) and I determine this with a continuity tester (set to audio-beep mode) just to be sure I have the correct orientation. I use these three position, push terminals to make it easy to swap around the Rail A - Rail B wires as needed: IMG_8738_fix by Edmund, on Flickr Violet in the center is wired to frog/pin 4; orange and blue, in my color code, relate to pin 2 and 3 from the Tortoise and white/green is rail A and B respectively. In a crossover situation, the fulcrum of each Tortoise may cause the internal switch contacts to "close" on opposing outputs. So, you may have to wire rail A to pin 3 on one machine while it will require to be on pin 2 on the other. I'm not aware of any changes to the internal configuration of the Tortoise DPDT switch. Good Luck, Ed
The first thing I thought of is that I got the 2 & 3 pins reversed so I switched the bus lines. I used red on 2 and black on 3 to correspond to the color of my bus lines. When it shorted, I switched them and put black on red and red on black. Same problem. I had used suitcase connectors on my bus lines so switching them wasn't easy but eventually I got it done but the problem persisted. It seems like it's connecting both the A and B rails to the frog no matter which way the points are thrown.
After I got the Tortoise in position but before connecting any wires, I moved the switch machine manually to make sure I had it positioned properly and the points would move completely in either direction. Is it possible that by doing that I could have broken something internally that caused something inside the Tortoise to cross the connections?
I bought a six pack of Tortoises so I have several I haven't used yet. I think I'm going to wire one up exactly like the one that is installed. I should be able to check the connections even without installing it to the turnout. If it works, it will tell me that the one that is installed is defective.
Some Tortoise machines have a problem with the internal metal contact fingers breaking loose from the arm that moves them. They are fastened by melting two plastic posts to form a rivit, head which in some cases is not thick enough to hold reliably. The manufactorer acknowledged the problem and offered replacement parts for machines under warranty which yours probably are not.
I have repaired them by drilling a hole through the arm and using common straight pins as rivits to hold the contact fingers in position. I cut off the excess length of the pins and bend them over in the channel on the opposite side of the arm. Some super glue or epoxy insures that they can't work their way out. The pins and glue must be within the sides of the channel or the arm will bind.
There are five screws that are covered by the label that must be removed to open the green housing- one in each corner and one in the center. The internal mechanism is fairly simple and not hard to reassemble.
Here is a link to a discussion of the problem.
RepowerAndRegear@groups.io | Search
mvlandsw Some Tortoise machines have a problem with the internal metal contact fingers breaking loose from the arm that moves them. They are fastened by melting two plastic posts to form a rivit, head which in some cases is not thick enough to hold reliably. The manufactorer acknowledged the problem and offered replacement parts for machines under warranty which yours probably are not. I have repaired them by drilling a hole through the arm and using common straight pins as rivits to hold the contact fingers in position. I cut off the excess length of the pins and bend them over in the channel on the opposite side of the arm. Some super glue or epoxy insures that they can't work their way out. The pins and glue must be within the sides of the channel or the arm will bind. There are five screws that are covered by the label that must be removed to open the green housing- one in each corner and one in the center. The internal mechanism is fairly simple and not hard to reassemble. Here is a link to a discussion of the problem. RepowerAndRegear@groups.io | Search
That's good information. I suspect this Tortoise has internal problems but since it is quite old, I'm sure it's no longer under warranty. The six pack of new Tortoises was bought recently and those are still under warranty but it won't help me in this case.
It's official. I am an idiot. When I wired up a new Tortoise and the same problem occurred, I knew the problem lay elsewhere. I suspected the problem might be in the turnout itself. I began closely examining the insulating gaps to make sure nothing was connected that shouldn't be. I then took a look at the connection I had soldered to the frog rails. That looked OK. That's when I spotted it. On the other side of the V formed by the frog rails was the old connection to the Peco switch machine. I thought I had cut all the connections but apparently I missed this one. I had hid soldered connection so well with the ballast that it was barely visible. I disconnected the old wire and that eliminated the problem. It turns out I had also originally hooked the 2 and 3 tabs to the wrong bus lines. I can forgive myself for that. Because of the other problem, when I reversed the connections, the problem persisted. Now both problems have been resolved and the crossover is working just as it should.
Glad to hear you found your sneaky short! I've had my share of those hiccups.
I'd say my Tortoise count on my layout is in the 125-units range. All of them are at least 20 years old, some are 25+, I've never had a defective one. Period. Even the one I drilled a 1/4" hole all the way through. I cleaned all the plastic shavings off the gears and it is still running today.
Happy Railroading, Ed
John-NYBWNow both problems have been resolved and the crossover is working just as it should.
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!