LastspikemikeAtlas wiring book page 37 figures 5-6 and 5-7 show incorrect connections from powerpacks to the 220. The 220 packaging diagram is also incorrect.
The wiring diagrams provided by Atlas are correct.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI would never recomment anyone use the Atlas system..
Like Sheldon, I would NEVER suggest anyone use the Atlas wiring components.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI've been staying out of these DC wiring threads because they are full of questionable or hard to understand advice.
Yes. They always get muddled up by inexperienced people giving bad advice about a subject they do not comprehend.
That is why I deleted my posts about DC reverse loop wiring. The replies full of incorrect information ruined the thread.
Only people that have successfully wired multiple DC layouts, and understand DC control, should be participating in these conversations.
Living the dream.
LastspikemikeThe Atlas schematic for the 220 is not accurate as I previously noted. In particular, the circuit to the "common rail" output from the same polarity input is not shown. To understand my remark you need to understand that...
I cannot follow what you are stating.
Please post a corrected schematic drawing comparing it to the one that Greg showed, and also please include sketches outlining the 220 internal wiring design changes. That way I can understand your explanation.
-Kevin
Kevin he is not going to post any pictures he refuses to do so
And I totallly agree with CSX Robert Sheldon and Kevin
I have been in this since about 1970 worked at real RR for 30 plus yrs in signal dept as lead signalman foreman and tech So as far as I can see the diag for the 220 is accurate I don't know what the expert on all things relative to MR thinks is wrong with it but after all he has only been in this for the last two years
He also goes on about his layout (no picts) and a club (name ???)
I never used any of the atlas controllers pcs thought I had some in a junk box can't find them I use just their switches over 100 on my layout still have a few of the old brass kits new in box kinda wonder if they changed the brass formula at some point cause those kits are still shiney no corrosion at all
Lastspikemike Incidentally, it is actually confusing to refer to reversing sections and "main lines" as if these are different electrically. It makes more sense to realize that electrically speaking you automatically create two reversing sections as soon as you create one.
Incidentally, it is actually confusing to refer to reversing sections and "main lines" as if these are different electrically. It makes more sense to realize that electrically speaking you automatically create two reversing sections as soon as you create one.
Conceptually this is bad way to view this, because, based on my 50 years of experience, it actually confuses people more.
Yes, you are also reversing the main, but, per my earlier comments, DC operation is much easier for operators to understand if reversing switches are orientated "east - west" relative to physical movement.
Every layout is a little different and may require different solutions, but the ability of an operator to look at a reversing switch and KNOW which way the train will move is a huge advantage.
Since reverse loops typically change that flow, they need a different convention, hence clockwise, counter clockwise.
See, this is why I'm not in these conversations any more.
If the original poster would like some help, he is welcome to send me a PM.
Sheldon
I forgot all my layouts have been common rail all with mutiple controllers
And I have one Y on my layout controlled by relays
jjdamnitSince you are using Atlas controllers I suggest purchasing The Complete Atlas Wiring Book... Unfortunately, it is currently listed as Backorder on the Atlas website.
Overmod jjdamnit Since you are using Atlas controllers I suggest purchasing The Complete Atlas Wiring Book... Unfortunately, it is currently listed as Backorder on the Atlas website. At least two copies of the 2017 edition of this #12 are currently up on eBay for close to the listed price. I'm reasonably sure 'used' copies will show up on Amazon or some of the 'discount' book sites from time to time.
jjdamnit Since you are using Atlas controllers I suggest purchasing The Complete Atlas Wiring Book... Unfortunately, it is currently listed as Backorder on the Atlas website.
At least two copies of the 2017 edition of this #12 are currently up on eBay for close to the listed price. I'm reasonably sure 'used' copies will show up on Amazon or some of the 'discount' book sites from time to time.
Rich
Alton Junction
LastspikemikeIncidentally, it is actually confusing to refer to reversing sections and "main lines" as if these are different electrically. It makes more sense to realize that electrically speaking you automatically create two reversing sections as soon as you create one.
While you can change a train's travel direction with the direction switch, it can travel anywhere on the mainlines and will never change the direction it is physically pointing relative to the track. When the train traverses a reversing section, it can change the direction it is physically pointing, how is labeling that a reversing section confusing?
When you add a reversing section, either section of the layout could be considered a reversing section relative to the other (section 'A' reverses trains for section 'B' or section B reverses trains for section 'A'), but most layouts have a section that makes sense to have as the "mainline" with any reversing sections reversing trains relative to that mainline.
Two parallel tracks should have the same "east - west" orientation and not require a reversing section.
The real problem here is the rest of the short sighted thinking about cab control and how to connect the track sections to the throttles. But this is all I have time for.
LastspikemikeSo which way is "clockwise" on a single track connecting two continuous running loops? And if the polarity of the exit from one loop is opposite to the polarity at the entry to the other loop which is the "correct" direction?
Did you actually read his post or just skim it? He talked about clockwise and counter clockwise specifically in reference to loops, as well as pointing out that "every layout is a little different and may require different solutions."
LastspikemikeIf you use Atlas 220 controllers there is no "main line" to have default polarity
The "mainline" when using Atlas 220 controllers is whatever is connected to the right-hand side outputs of the controller.
Lastspikemike If you use fully isolated blocks with independent polarity control (DPDT to each block) for each block which block is the main line?
You generally don't have independent direction control for each block (for each block on the mainline the direction is controlled by the cab currently selected, not an independent direction switch for that block), you have direction control for each cab and each reversing section, but again "every layout is a little different and may require different solutions."
jjdamnit Another option would be to use terminal strips (A.K.A. terminal blocks or barrier strips). These come in "sizes" from 2- to 10-terminals. To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section. Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common. Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks. For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post. Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and... Hope this helps.
To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section.
Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common.
Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks.
For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post.
Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and...
Hope this helps.
Hello All,
Thanks very much everyone for your input re my wiring question! Much appreciated.
The first response by jjdamnit addressed my main issue re the Atlas 215 selectors. I want to take the approach of wiring each block as a stand alone to make trouble shooting easier. Because something always goes wrong with wiring, right? Or is it just me? :) I couldn't visualize using the terminal strips for the second leg (that's the correct term, right?) for all the blocks but now it seems simple.
I got the Atlas selectors as I thought they were a reliable means for blocking but it sounds like there are some better alternatives. Since I bought them I am going to go with them for now but will start researching alternatives.
Sheldon, if you read this, I would be interested in your approach to DC wiring. I would love to do a wireless set up but internet searches have not come up with success.
Once again, thanks everyone. I enjoy reading the spirited debate on layout preferences and am continually amazed by the wealth of information that can be obtained from the membership by simply just posting a question!
charles
CharlesGood choice, Sheldon is the goto guy for DC wiring. Mel Modeling the early to mid 1950s SP in HO scale since 1951My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California Aging is not for wimps.
RR_MelGood choice, Sheldon is the goto guy for DC wiring.
+1.
Ablebakercharlie jjdamnit Another option would be to use terminal strips (A.K.A. terminal blocks or barrier strips). These come in "sizes" from 2- to 10-terminals. To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section. Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common. Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks. For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post. Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and... Hope this helps. Hello All, Thanks very much everyone for your input re my wiring question! Much appreciated. The first response by jjdamnit addressed my main issue re the Atlas 215 selectors. I want to take the approach of wiring each block as a stand alone to make trouble shooting easier. Because something always goes wrong with wiring, right? Or is it just me? :) I couldn't visualize using the terminal strips for the second leg (that's the correct term, right?) for all the blocks but now it seems simple. I got the Atlas selectors as I thought they were a reliable means for blocking but it sounds like there are some better alternatives. Since I bought them I am going to go with them for now but will start researching alternatives. Sheldon, if you read this, I would be interested in your approach to DC wiring. I would love to do a wireless set up but internet searches have not come up with success. Once again, thanks everyone. I enjoy reading the spirited debate on layout preferences and am continually amazed by the wealth of information that can be obtained from the membership by simply just posting a question! charles
Charles, I would be happy to help. My first question is do you have a track plan you can post or email?
Then I would like to know a little about what you would like to be able to do, how you would like to operate your layout.
If you know how the private message feature works on this forum, and yours is working, feel free to send me a private measage.
LastspikemikeTo understand my remark you need to understand that the two reversing switches in the 220 just always be set to center off when ganging the 220's. Terminal C is then not connected in any 220 in the gang except the last one.
i think what you're trying to say is that if the cab reversing switch is set to the center position, the C terminal is unconnected.
i don't believe the cab reversing section is intended to be set to the center.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Ablebakercharlie jjdamnit Another option would be to use terminal strips (A.K.A. terminal blocks or barrier strips). These come in "sizes" from 2- to 10-terminals. To energize the entire strip you can fabricate jumpers from spade connectors and short pieces of wire or buy jumpers made of solid metal to connect the terminals. From there it's a matter of running wires from the lugs (screw terminals) on the terminal strip to the track section. Before converting my 4' X 8' pike to DCC I had 16 control blocks (4 atlas controllers) with only a single "negative" common. Because of the size of my pike I found 20 AWG wire sufficient for the power feeds for both the common and blocks. For the turnouts I used a separate power source connected to two Capacitive Discharge Units through Atlas switch control boxes (#56). But that's another post. Keep the questions coming, update us on your progress, and... Hope this helps. Hello All, Thanks very much everyone for your input re my wiring question! Much appreciated. The first response by jjdamnit addressed my main issue re the Atlas 215 selectors. I want to take the approach of wiring each block as a stand alone to make trouble shooting easier. Because something always goes wrong with wiring, right? Or is it just me? :) I couldn't visualize using the terminal strips for the second leg (that's the correct term, right?) for all the blocks but now it seems simple. I got the Atlas selectors as I thought they were a reliable means for blocking but it sounds like there are some better alternatives. Since I bought them I am going to go with them for now but will start researching alternatives. Sheldon, if you read this, I would be interested in your approach to DC wiring. I would love to do a wireless set up but internet searches have not come up with success. Once again, thanks everyone. I enjoy reading the spirited debate on layout preferences and am continually amazed by the wealth of information that can be obtained from the membership by simply just posting a question! charles Charles, I would be happy to help. My first question is do you have a track plan you can post or email? Then I would like to know a little about what you would like to be able to do, how you would like to operate your layout. If you know how the private message feature works on this forum, and yours is working, feel free to send me a private measage. Sheldon
Thank you very much for responding. I have enjoyed reading your posts since I have been "lurking" these past couple months and have wanted to get your input re a DC layout setup since that is your set-up choice vs DCC.
Now I must sheepishly admit I can't figure out how to send a PM - I looked in the profile / settings section and couldn't figure it out. Can you or someone else offer assistance? I would be happy to post /send the layoutplan and track pics for critique.
With much appreciation,
Here is a pic of the layout - that is if I did the correct things.....
There actually is a minor error in the schematic, but it's pretty obvious how it's supposed to be. In the cab B reversing switch, one of the connections to the C circuit is missing.
LastspikemikeIn particular, the circuit to the "common rail" output from the same polarity input is not shown
The circuit to the common rail output from the "same polarity input" is not shown because the common rail output is not necessarily wired to the same polarity and is not wired directly to the cab inputs. The common goes after the cab direction switch because which polarity of each input it goes to depends on the direction switch for that input.
LastspikemikeDescribe the line on the schematic that shows how the common rail power flows from either Cab A or B input terminal through the 220 to power the input terminal on the ganged 220.
LastspikemikeThe inner of the two input terminals flow though the C common rail connection according to the schematics
No they don't. The common rail connection goes to the two cab direction switches and whether or not it is connected to an input and if so which one is determnined by the direction switches.
I was able to see and download the track plan, I will get back to you as soon as I can look it over.
To the right of your screen, should be your account profile info. There should be a button that says "messages" - that is the private message portal.
If it's not there or does not work, don't be concerned, not all the features work correctly for everyone, the software is old.....
Be back to you soon,
Lastspikemike Looking at the 220 schematic again I see how Atlas indicates the center off flow through for the Common terminal. The lower Cab B reversing switch is shown in the center off position and the direct connection is shown. Cab A reversing switch is shown in the live position activating the Block output connections. You would never actually operate the 220 in this configuration.
Looking at the 220 schematic again I see how Atlas indicates the center off flow through for the Common terminal. The lower Cab B reversing switch is shown in the center off position and the direct connection is shown. Cab A reversing switch is shown in the live position activating the Block output connections. You would never actually operate the 220 in this configuration.
Thge schematic you're looking at must not be the same as the one Greg posted then(which is also available on the Atlas website). That schematic shows both cabs A and B in the center position, with the cab inputs connected directly to the right side outputs and no connection to common (because again, with mutiple 220's you can not pick up common until after the cab direction switches in the last 220).
CSX Robert Lastspikemike Looking at the 220 schematic again I see how Atlas indicates the center off flow through for the Common terminal. The lower Cab B reversing switch is shown in the center off position and the direct connection is shown. Cab A reversing switch is shown in the live position activating the Block output connections. You would never actually operate the 220 in this configuration.
LastspikemikeSo, clearly, there is not a commonly accepted definition of common rail.
I am pretty sure there has been a universally understood definition of common rail DC wiring for 60+ years.
gregcthe arrow is confusing in the controller schematic (upper right). there is a permanent connection between the screw terminals. I verified this with a multimeter with the reversing switches centered. they've confusingly drawn the connection going thru the switch.
The arrow is just showing one position of the reversing switch. There is not a direct connection between the cab input and output terminals, the cab reversing switches are three position switches and the center position does connect the inputs straight to the outputs. The other two positions connect one leg of the corresponding cab to the outer output terminal (top terminal for cab A and bottom terminal for cab B) and the other leg to the common terminal.
gregcand yes, if the plastic cab reversing switch is in the middle, there is no connection between common rail terminal, C, power pack. The switch should not set in that position
gregcthe bottom diagram also indicates that the common rail connection C is from the right-most 220 controller, meaning that it is the result of passing thru several cab reversing switches on one or more 220 controllers as well as the throttle itself.
The common does pass through all of the controllers (on the cab inputs/outputs), but you cannot pick it up until the last one because you cannot determine which leg of each cab is common until after the reversing switches in the last controller.
LastspikemikeAnd what would that be?
I think you are purposely "playing dumb" to start some discord. There is no way you do not understand common rail.
Anyway... common rail has one continously electrically connected rail that shares one terminal in common with each power pack output. That "rail" is "common" to all power sources.
There, now you don't need to pretend that you don't understand.
Robert gets it.
The Atlas Controller serves three functions. It provides a MAIN LINE reversing switch for each throttle AFTER a power tap for a reversing loop. It provides a cab selection switch for the reversing loop, and it provides the necessary separate reversing switch for that loop.
IF you have more than one reverse loop, Controllers are added to the left for each additional loop.
The cab reverse switches on the ADDITIONAL Controllers must remain in the center pass thru position on those controllers. Only the right most Controller is used as the MAIN LINE reversing switch.
For what it is, the Atlas system works fine, you just need to set it up correctly and know what each switch does and know which ones to leave alone.
And maybe, you need to accept the established conventions of MAINLINE and REVERSE LOOP?
IMPORTANT - the Atlas system, and common rail in general, will not work with dual power packs fed from a single internal transformer. You will get a short when you hook up the common wire and reverse the direction of one throttle in relationship to the other.
Over the years many better dual packs actually had separate internal transfomers because common rail was popular back in the day.
You must have a separate transformer (derived source) for each throttle to use common rail for multi train cab control.
For those who don't undertand this, I will explain transformer theory and why you don't get a short with two separate power packs some other day.
Meanwhile, I am working on a best design for the OP's track plan.....
LastspikemikeDid we also verify that, assuming the two power packs depicted by Atlas are identical, that Atlas shows the positive and negative outputs connected incorrectly to the 220? If yiu connect as shown you will get a dead short.
No we did not verify that because it is not true.
Ignoring the cab selector and reversing switch for the reversing (X-Y) section, ther Eare five settings for 220.
The first setting has both cab revresing switches set to the middle position. It connects the cab A and B inputs directly to the right hand side outputs and leaves the C terminal unconnected (Edit: I meant to point out in that anything marked in yellow in these diagrams is unconnected):
Here are the other four combinatons (I've labeled the switch postions up and down to match the schematic even though physically they are left and right) :
For each cab and each position, one input is connected to the outer (upper cab A, lower cab B) output terminal for that cab, the other input is connected to the common terminal, the inner output terminals are left unconnected, and there are no shorts anywhere.
I do not understand labelling power pack track outputs.
The track output is polarity reversable by the direction switch on the power pack. It does not have a positive or a negative.
Lastspikemike I wired ours up wrong and they didn't work. Wiring them correctly, not as shown by Atlas, worked. But then I was connecting a MRC 780 twin throttle powerpack to the 220's.
I think it's time for 'chapter 2' of the explanational posts, about how the various DC devices actually work (and, in some cases, fail to work as expected).
sorry. it seems i'm just adding to the confusion
CSX Robert gregc the arrow is confusing in the controller schematic (upper right). there is a permanent connection between the screw terminals. I verified this with a multimeter with the reversing switches centered. they've confusingly drawn the connection going thru the switch.
gregc the arrow is confusing in the controller schematic (upper right). there is a permanent connection between the screw terminals. I verified this with a multimeter with the reversing switches centered. they've confusingly drawn the connection going thru the switch.
you're right, i'm wrong, there is no direct connection between the cab reversing switch and the output terminals (right side)
the cab A screw terminals on the right side go thru the cab reversing switch, allowing the polarity on the right side terminals to be reversed.
CSX Robert The other two positions connect one leg of the corresponding cab to the outer output terminal (top terminal for cab A and bottom terminal for cab B) and the other leg to the common terminal.
i believe you're saying that the cab-A reversing switch also connects the C (common) terminal at the top of the controller to bottom cab A screw terminal on the right side. the top cab A screw terminal on the right side is the non-common rail connection
CSX Robert gregc and yes, if the plastic cab reversing switch is in the middle, there is no connection between common rail terminal, C, power pack. The switch should not set in that position The switch is supposed to be set in that position on all but the right-most controller when there are two or more.
gregc and yes, if the plastic cab reversing switch is in the middle, there is no connection between common rail terminal, C, power pack. The switch should not set in that position
The switch is supposed to be set in that position on all but the right-most controller when there are two or more.
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe cab reverse switches on the ADDITIONAL Controllers must remain in the center pass thru position on those controllers.
the center position (there are no detents) disconnects the ride side terminals from the input side on the left . the left position is a pass thru, the right position reverses (verified with multimeter)
CSX Robert gregc the bottom diagram also indicates that the common rail connection C is from the right-most 220 controller, meaning that it is the result of passing thru several cab reversing switches on one or more 220 controllers as well as the throttle itself. The common does pass through all of the controllers (on the cab inputs/outputs), but you cannot pick it up until the last one because you cannot determine which leg of each cab is common until after the reversing switches in the last controller.
gregc the bottom diagram also indicates that the common rail connection C is from the right-most 220 controller, meaning that it is the result of passing thru several cab reversing switches on one or more 220 controllers as well as the throttle itself.
that's what the diagram shows
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Only the right most Controller is used as the MAIN LINE reversing switch.
i agree because any other would also reverse the polarity going to the X-Y reversing switch
why?
for separate cabs there are no common connections between the cabs unless one output is connected to AC ground
LastspikemikeDC powerpacks have positive and negative output terminals or they wouldn't need a reversing switch to operate trains.
of course the output i DC. the reversing switch is between the output terminals and the circuit inside controlling the output voltage. that is why polarity is not marked on the output terminals.