Greg, You seem to have missed some important points.
If you look at my second drawing, the indicator lights can be wired that way, directly to the control wire that energizes the coil. I mentioned this several times. That eliminates mine or your extra wires between the relay location and the control panels for the lights.
Actually my basic circuit does not use seven contacts. The two contacts at the top left are optional control lockouts, they have nothing to do with the actual turnout control circuit and are not on these relays.
My circuit uses all three points on two of the form C sets, and then uses one other N.C. contact.
Why would you care how many contacts you use or short little jumpers you have at the relay location if you can elinimate wires in the long runs? I wire my relay panels on the bench, then install them and make the field connections. Again I locate the relay panels near the group of turnouts they serve. To me, there is a big difference between a wire that is two inches long at the relay panel, or is included in a relay mount circuit board, and a wire I have run across the layout.
Side note - Yes, a single relay can drive multiple Tortoise machines, but I typically use one Tortoise with their remote kit to drive crossovers.
I Like the idea that the turnouts all return to "normal" on power up, opinons will vary.
And by interlocking logical groups of turnouts, only allowing logical routes, and placing the lighted push buttons in the track diagram, you eliminate unneeded pushbuttons in some cases, or you can add redundant buttons that make the user interface easier. This is hard to explain without drawings of specific track arrangements.
What is the contact rating of your relays?
I could be wrong, but I think you are over thinking this idea of what the user can learn or understand. Once it is build and properly documented, I bet he will be just fine.
Sheldon
Greg, here is the panel diagram for the example I used earlier.
Any route can be selected by pushing no more than two buttons (only one button for the crossover routes), all turnouts correct to the route selected from any previous route. The lighted pushbuttons indicate the route.
The two buttons on the bottom track are actually in parallel on the same wires.
Five relays, seven buttons, seven wires between relay location and control panels.
ATLANTIC CENTRALFive relays, seven buttons, seven wires between relay location and control panels.
3 relays: the turnout and 1 for each crossover
(check you messages)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL Five relays, seven buttons, seven wires between relay location and control panels. 3 relays: the turnout and 1 for each crossover (check you messages)
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Five relays, seven buttons, seven wires between relay location and control panels.
Yes with the latching relays you can use less relays, but you need twice as many wires between the relay location and the control panels.
The logic I use generally requires one relay per "route". Similar logic can eliminate the extra relays and use just one for each two routes, but it requires both normally open and normally closed pushbuttons.
No one makes sub miniature LED lighted push buttons with normally closed contacts.
Since I use the various contacts on the ice cube relays for the signal logic, frog power, and DC power routing, the extra relays are actually an asset.
I recieved your private message, reply sent.
ESwitch LP4 series. Available as a dpdt momentary so two nc contacts and two no contacts plus the led.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker ESwitch LP4 series. Available as a dpdt momentary so two nc contacts and two no contacts plus the led. --Randy
Kind of bulky looking, and twice the cost of the relay they would save........
I use these, much less expensive:
https://www.citrelay.com/view_switch.php?series=DG
I could not find anything like you posted 17 years ago, everyhing was much larger, and again at what cost?
Those look exactly like the ones I use, the ESwitch LP01 series. Dimension look about the same too.
The round version of the LP4 is about the same size as the LP01 or the CIT. Bonus is that I can;t find that CIT switch for sale anyway, not even eBay. Mouser and DigiKey both stock the LP01 switches I am using, but it seems only Mouser has the LP4 series.
rrinker Those look exactly like the ones I use, the ESwitch LP01 series. Dimension look about the same too. The round version of the LP4 is about the same size as the LP01 or the CIT. Bonus is that I can;t find that CIT switch for sale anyway, not even eBay. Mouser and DigiKey both stock the LP01 switches I am using, but it seems only Mouser has the LP4 series. --Randy
I bought CIT stuff directly from them years ago. Relays too. I did buy 500 buttons.......yes they look the same as the Eswitch LP1.
Now that I have worked out all the circuits and added features, there would be no point in a change anyway.
Agreed, but Greg is building new, he's going to need parts that are readily available.
I have some relays, I don;t know if they are still avaialble, but the description on the eBay listing I got them from wasn;t very complete. The described electrical characteristics were plenty good for what I needed, and were accurate per the datasheet, but I didn;t know how tiny these things were - very tiny PCB mount relays, very much a name brand, not some cheap Chinese things or some fake, yet eidiculously inexepensive for a high quality DPDT relay. I believe they were something like 50 cents each. ANd new, not pulls. The circuit i was working on was going to use 4, so I bought 5, but hundreds were available. I;m sure you can still find things like this, otherwise you better already have what you need, or know of a stash of old surplus relays somewhere, because new ones are not exactly cheap. For multi contact ones from a top name, anyway. The ones I am using for frog power in my servo circuit are just basic Chinese ones, but also only SPDT contacts.
They are low power coils - having a relay hold on for an extended period of time is definitely not a problem. I left one pulled in on my controller for a few hours of on time, the microcontroller did not get warm, the transistor driving the relay coil did not get warm, and the relay itself did not get warm. I'd have to check, but I believe the coil current is rated as 30ma, a little too much to drive right from the micro output pin, hence a transistor driver. Checking current draw of the entire circuit with both relays released vs 1 relay pulled in vs 2 relays pulled in, it seems closer to 20ma per coil.
Randy,
I use 24 volt ice cubes like these:
https://www.citrelay.com/view_relay.php?series=J152
5 amp contacts, 4PDT, true industrial control relays, an industry standard part for more than 50 years.
Because, I am switching track power and control power.
I bought several hundred from CIT for under $3ea 16 years ago. I have also bought new and used surplus on Ebay, various name brands, never paid more than $1 each for those. I likely have about 500 of them.
I do also buy the bases, but have found them cheap too, often the relay and the base, surplus, for $1 each.
I do have a circuit board that I had manufactured for the cab selection circuit, eight relays plug into it, and the control station wiring and track power wiring have terminals. So no relay wiring for that circuit.
The signal and turnout control wiring is done with CAT5 cable, the track power distribution for the X section blocks is done with #14 THHN.
Relays like these have a 100% duty cycle, they are designed to be on. Back in the day, when I designed, installed and serviced industrial machines with these kinds of controls, we had very few failures.
They will last forever on a model railroad........
And there is something cool about using the same types of circuits for signaling that the prototype used back in 1954.
Greg and I took this conversation private and were better able to understand each other. While it will take more wires than my system, some of his requirements likely make the latching relays a good choice.