gregc isn't upgrading a PowerCab with an SB5 smart-booster a less expensive path to a fully system that doesn't require as large an investment up front?
isn't upgrading a PowerCab with an SB5 smart-booster a less expensive path to a fully system that doesn't require as large an investment up front?
Rich
Alton Junction
so what is it missing?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
bearman,Why do you consider comparing MSRP to be unfair? I mean, it is what it is. The only time that using MSRP is unfair is if one were to compare MSRP to the discount price of something else, but we're not doing that here. MSRP comparisons are "apples to apples". If the point is to compare buying any DCC system vs. existing analog controls (a throttlepack they already own), by all means bring up the "actual sale price". But in comparing systems? MSRP is completely fair. Why would you consider it unfair?As for castigation, you said you'd be "rightfully" castigated because in a year the OP found he didn't like the system you suggested. I still don't get that. "Severe criticism" over a DCC system recommendation? We may argue the points of the systems, or DCC vs. DC, but this forum is all rainbows and unicorns when it comes to personal criticism, comparitively speaking. No one has been severely criticized on this forum for years.
Randy,Exactly!Rich,Thanks! This is why I like debating topics online. This thread made me research NCE's website more than I have in years and I learned new things. I also saw that Digitrax has some new products I didn't know about.
gregc,I guess it depends on what you consider a "full system". The PowerCab/SB5 combo price of $420 gets you a true walkaround tethered DCC system. To upgrade the $225 Zephyr to a true walkaround system, you'd need at least a basic UT4 throttle at $80. For a "full" DT500 throttle, that's $189, so a total of either $305 or $414.
Now where the NCE is better at this price point is that this changes the 2 amp PowerCab to a 5 amp system. To likewise add more power to the 3 amp Zephyr would require a 3/5/8 amp $170 DB210 booster.
If anyone needs to castigate me for bad advice, and I admit I've given some, I am offering a full refund of the price you paid me for that advice.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Paul3gregc, I guess it depends on what you consider a "full system". The PowerCab/SB5 combo price of $420 gets you a true walkaround tethered DCC system.
i'm considering an upgrade and trying to understand the differences between an SB5 and PH-pro. I have a small layout and now have three locomotives.
I already have a PowerCab. A ProCab comes with the PH-Pro. The only difference I can see is that the PH-Pro comes with program track connection.
I must be missing something
Paul3 bearman,Why do you consider comparing MSRP to be unfair? I mean, it is what it is. The only time that using MSRP is unfair is if one were to compare MSRP to the discount price of something else, but we're not doing that here. MSRP comparisons are "apples to apples". If the point is to compare buying any DCC system vs. existing analog controls (a throttlepack they already own), by all means bring up the "actual sale price". But in comparing systems? MSRP is completely fair. Why would you consider it unfair?As for castigation, you said you'd be "rightfully" castigated because in a year the OP found he didn't like the system you suggested. I still don't get that. "Severe criticism" over a DCC system recommendation? We may argue the points of the systems, or DCC vs. DC, but this forum is all rainbows and unicorns when it comes to personal criticism, comparitively speaking. No one has been severely criticized on this forum for years. Randy,Exactly!Rich,Thanks! This is why I like debating topics online. This thread made me research NCE's website more than I have in years and I learned new things. I also saw that Digitrax has some new products I didn't know about. gregc,I guess it depends on what you consider a "full system". The PowerCab/SB5 combo price of $420 gets you a true walkaround tethered DCC system. To upgrade the $225 Zephyr to a true walkaround system, you'd need at least a basic UT4 throttle at $80. For a "full" DT500 throttle, that's $189, so a total of either $305 or $414. Now where the NCE is better at this price point is that this changes the 2 amp PowerCab to a 5 amp system. To likewise add more power to the 3 amp Zephyr would require a 3/5/8 amp $170 DB210 booster.
I absolutely positively under-no-uncertain-terms want to get involved in an argument regarding MSRP. But I will say that finding the out-the-door discounted street price for anything these days could not be simpler. Half a dozen clicks, half a dozen prices. All within a dollar or two of each other.
I don't have a $225 Zephyr, but I know for certain that the price is $180, plus or minus tax, plus or minus shipping, plus or minus handling.
I do have a $170 DB210. It cost me $120. When purchased with a few other things, its share of the shipping/handling cost was about $5, so I'll estimate total cost at $125. I can't imagine I'm so special that I'm the only one to get such a bargain.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
gregc Paul3 gregc, I guess it depends on what you consider a "full system". The PowerCab/SB5 combo price of $420 gets you a true walkaround tethered DCC system. i'm considering an upgrade and trying to understand the differences between an SB5 and PH-pro. I have a small layout and now have three locomotives. I already have a PowerCab. A ProCab comes with the PH-Pro. The only difference I can see is that the PH-Pro comes with program track connection. I must be missing something
Paul3 gregc, I guess it depends on what you consider a "full system". The PowerCab/SB5 combo price of $420 gets you a true walkaround tethered DCC system.
Your "advantage" is that you already own the Power Cab. For someone who does not own the Power Cab, I would argue that if his budget permits, he should immediately purchase the PH-Pro and forget about the eventual upgrades.
First of all, I agree with Rich. I am someone who started off with the Power Cab and just recently upgraded with the SB5 because I wanted more operating locations.
Second of all, I am not going to get sucked into another MSRP vs. Retail price "discussion" or a "discussion" regarding which system is better. This kind of discussion does not change minds, especially when someone has already committed a serious amount of money to a system. This bridge on MSRP has been crossed.
To reiterate, anyone who is in the market to go DCC, or RailPro for that matter, should do their own research and make a decision on how to spend their money.
Bear "It's all about having fun."
richhotrain Paul3 Brakie,The NCE PowerCab is nice, but it's not a "step above" the Zephyr Xtra. Sure, the PowerCab is "walkaround", but it isn't really. As soon as you unplug the PowerCab to move to another socket, all the trains stop because the throttle is the command station. To keep the trains running while unplugged, you need to buy the SB5 SmartBooster for another $220. The PowerCab is limited to 2 amps continous, 3 amps peak load. The Zephyr Xtra is 3 amps continuous, 3.5amp peak. The PowerCab can only have a maximum of 4 throttles. The Zephyr Xtra can have up to 20. To go wireless throttle control with the PowerCab requires the SmartBooster SB5 ($220), RB02 radio ($160), and either then Procab-R ($250) or Cab06r ($190) for a total of either $570 or $630.For wireless throttle control with the Zephyr Xtra, it requires the UR92 radio ($160) and either the UT4D ($135) or DT500D ($254) throttle for a total of either $295 or $414.In many ways, the Zephyr Xtra is more advanced than the PowerCab. What it isn't is portable like the PowerCab. However, the upgrade path is significantly less money with Digitrax due to that portable nature of the PowerCab. Great comparative review, Paul. Rich
Paul3 Brakie,The NCE PowerCab is nice, but it's not a "step above" the Zephyr Xtra. Sure, the PowerCab is "walkaround", but it isn't really. As soon as you unplug the PowerCab to move to another socket, all the trains stop because the throttle is the command station. To keep the trains running while unplugged, you need to buy the SB5 SmartBooster for another $220. The PowerCab is limited to 2 amps continous, 3 amps peak load. The Zephyr Xtra is 3 amps continuous, 3.5amp peak. The PowerCab can only have a maximum of 4 throttles. The Zephyr Xtra can have up to 20. To go wireless throttle control with the PowerCab requires the SmartBooster SB5 ($220), RB02 radio ($160), and either then Procab-R ($250) or Cab06r ($190) for a total of either $570 or $630.For wireless throttle control with the Zephyr Xtra, it requires the UR92 radio ($160) and either the UT4D ($135) or DT500D ($254) throttle for a total of either $295 or $414.In many ways, the Zephyr Xtra is more advanced than the PowerCab. What it isn't is portable like the PowerCab. However, the upgrade path is significantly less money with Digitrax due to that portable nature of the PowerCab.
Brakie,The NCE PowerCab is nice, but it's not a "step above" the Zephyr Xtra.
Sure, the PowerCab is "walkaround", but it isn't really. As soon as you unplug the PowerCab to move to another socket, all the trains stop because the throttle is the command station. To keep the trains running while unplugged, you need to buy the SB5 SmartBooster for another $220.
The PowerCab is limited to 2 amps continous, 3 amps peak load. The Zephyr Xtra is 3 amps continuous, 3.5amp peak.
The PowerCab can only have a maximum of 4 throttles. The Zephyr Xtra can have up to 20. To go wireless throttle control with the PowerCab requires the SmartBooster SB5 ($220), RB02 radio ($160), and either then Procab-R ($250) or Cab06r ($190) for a total of either $570 or $630.For wireless throttle control with the Zephyr Xtra, it requires the UR92 radio ($160) and either the UT4D ($135) or DT500D ($254) throttle for a total of either $295 or $414.In many ways, the Zephyr Xtra is more advanced than the PowerCab. What it isn't is portable like the PowerCab. However, the upgrade path is significantly less money with Digitrax due to that portable nature of the PowerCab.
Great comparative review, Paul.
Except for total price for walkaround capability. Because it inaccurately states that you MUST buy a SB5 for walk around capability. This is not true.
https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201621389-Step-2-Option-B-Wireless-operation
So the actual number is $350-410.
If you want to just make the PowerCab wireless, then you need the SB5, but do not need additional radio throttles. So the price is then 220+160=$380+shipping the powercab back to NCE for the upgrade to radio (not sure what that costs).
And if you want to get really technical:
NCE USB ($50) (or Digitrax equivalent) + JMRI (free) + wireless network likely alread installed in your house + android or iphone that you probably already have + wifi throttle app.
BMMECNYC richhotrain Paul3 Brakie,The NCE PowerCab is nice, but it's not a "step above" the Zephyr Xtra. Sure, the PowerCab is "walkaround", but it isn't really. As soon as you unplug the PowerCab to move to another socket, all the trains stop because the throttle is the command station. To keep the trains running while unplugged, you need to buy the SB5 SmartBooster for another $220. The PowerCab is limited to 2 amps continous, 3 amps peak load. The Zephyr Xtra is 3 amps continuous, 3.5amp peak. The PowerCab can only have a maximum of 4 throttles. The Zephyr Xtra can have up to 20. To go wireless throttle control with the PowerCab requires the SmartBooster SB5 ($220), RB02 radio ($160), and either then Procab-R ($250) or Cab06r ($190) for a total of either $570 or $630.For wireless throttle control with the Zephyr Xtra, it requires the UR92 radio ($160) and either the UT4D ($135) or DT500D ($254) throttle for a total of either $295 or $414.In many ways, the Zephyr Xtra is more advanced than the PowerCab. What it isn't is portable like the PowerCab. However, the upgrade path is significantly less money with Digitrax due to that portable nature of the PowerCab. Great comparative review, Paul. Rich Except for total price for walkaround capability. Because it inaccurately states that you MUST buy a SB5 for walk around capability. This is not true. https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201621389-Step-2-Option-B-Wireless-operation So the actual number is $350-410. If you want to just make the PowerCab wireless, then you need the SB5, but do not need additional radio throttles. So the price is then 220+160=$380+shipping the powercab back to NCE for the upgrade to radio (not sure what that costs). And if you want to get really technical: NCE USB ($50) (or Digitrax equivalent) + JMRI (free) + wireless network likely alread installed in your house + android or iphone that you probably already have + wifi throttle app.
That all being said, I am buying the TCS LCC command station when they release it.
richhotrainYour "advantage" is that you already own the Power Cab. For someone who does not own the Power Cab, I would argue that if his budget permits, he should immediately purchase the PH-Pro and forget about the eventual upgrades.
This is what I did. I went back and bought the Power Cab later because I wanted the ability to program at my workbench.
richhotrain gregc isn't upgrading a PowerCab with an SB5 smart-booster a less expensive path to a fully system that doesn't require as large an investment up front? It's like buying a Chevy back in 1950. Basic transportation, but if you wanted a bit of luxury and whole lot more fun, you eventually had to add on the radio, heater, and white wall tires. Cheaper to buy that 1950 Chevy fully equipped at the time of purchase rather than settle for add-ons later on. Rich
It's like buying a Chevy back in 1950. Basic transportation, but if you wanted a bit of luxury and whole lot more fun, you eventually had to add on the radio, heater, and white wall tires. Cheaper to buy that 1950 Chevy fully equipped at the time of purchase rather than settle for add-ons later on.
gregc so what is it missing?
Greg,
With a V1.65 version of the Power Cab, below are the similarities and differences between the Power Cab and PH Pro:
Power Cab (MSRP: $199.95 from NCE website)
PH Pro (MSRP: $529.95 from NCE website)
If you upgrade your Power Cab with an SB5 (MSRP: $219.95 from NCE website), you add the following:
Cost difference: MSRP*
*The above items can generally be found discounted for 20-30% off MSRP
So, to answer your question, Greg, it is less expensive to go the upgrade route with the Power Cab and SB5 combination rather than the PH Pro. It really depends how big of a layout you will initially have, or will ultimately end up with.
I have a smaller layout so I don't need 63 cabs; nor the ability to run 250 trains simultaneously. I like being able to program from either my bench or my layout. I also don't need a programming track booster for programming sound decoders.
You can't go wrong with either path and each route offers advantages and disadvantages. Hope that's a help...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageHope that's a help...
yes. very. thanks for researching this
As my electronically challenged mind understands it, the SB5 makes the hand held control moveable, from one plug-in location to another. In its original set up, it must stay plugged in to keep the trains running. Am planning to add an SB5 when new layout goes in, as I have already overloaded and repaired once.
Good luck,
Richard
cowmanAs my electronically challenged mind understands it, the SB5 makes the hand held control moveable, from one plug-in location to another.
A DCC system is composed of a command station that takes requests from a handheld, or cab, and generated DCC packets that are used to modulate power to the track by a booster. There's only one command station.
A PowerCab is all three. And since it provides power to the track, it can't be unplugged.
an SB5 is a command-station/booster. When a PowerCab is plugged into it, or any other cabbus, the PowerCab acts like a simple cab, like a ProCab, and can be disconnected.
One of the advantages of the PH-Pro over the Power Cab is that the PH-Pro includes a dedicated programming track. The Power Cab can be set up as a programming track, but then the entire layout becomes a programming track. NCE provides an AutoSW device to set up a dedicated programming track for the Power Cab, but that adds $24.95 (MSRP) to the overall cost.
a recent conversation with a club member made me realize that there's always a market for features customers may never use but want, just in case.
based on operations at the 90'x45' Pacific Southern, it's hard for me to imagine the need to run more than 18 trains that the SB5 is capable of. I doubt we have more than 10 engineers running trains. But the SB5 is only supports 6 cabs.
The Pacific Southern is one layout that needs cab capacity of a PH-Pro. But locos are programmed in the workshop on a workshop track with a PowerCab, not connecter to the layout.
from tstage's post, it looks like the convenience of the PH-Pro programming track is worth $100+ for most moders with less than large layouts.
And if you do need the cab capabilty of a PH-Pro, the cab06s alone will cost at least $560+ (7*$80).
richhotrainOne of the advantages of the PH-Pro over the Power Cab is that the PH-Pro includes a dedicated programming track. The Power Cab can be set up as a programming track, but then the entire layout becomes a programming track. NCE provides an AutoSW device to set up a dedicated programming track for the Power Cab, but that adds $24.95 (MSRP) to the overall cost.
Or, Rich, you can completely skip the AutoSW and hook up a Power Cab and PCP panel directly to the layout's dedicated programming track. Either way, the programming track would need to be electrically isolated from the rest of the layout.
Paul3With the Zephyr and the Jump Ports, one can control up to three trains at the exact same instant in time.
Paul,With the Tech 6 throttle in hand I can control up to six trains.
Even Bachmann's E-Z DCC you can control up to 6 engines.
For basic DCC I will hold to the NCE cab is a step up.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
There are two main contenders here. Each set has their strengths and weaknesses.
NCE Power Cab PRO:Easiest to use interfaceWalk around cab
NCE Power Cab WEAKNESS:
May not be best for small hands. One drop and it could be bye bye throttle.If you later want to interface it to a computer, your cheapest option is the NCE USB adapter which has a VERY LIMITED command set with the PowerCab. In otherwords, you can do less with it.
Power supply is about 13.5V 3 amps. Thats about 13V-DCC when it gets out to track. DCC spec calls for about 14.4 V-DCC.When you want to expand, the NCE bus has more wires to futz with. You'll need an expensive specialized tool to create your own bus wires. Digitrax Zyper ProActual throttle control over wheel
More robust WIRED system. Hardier components. Opto isolated boosters.Most accessories on market. (That are directly compatible to loconet)Full control using computer and MS100, PR3, or PR4.
Digitrax uses standard phone plug 6 wires for a control bus. $20 tool at home depot + some 6 wire phone wire.Digitrax Zypher Weakness
Display isn't nearly as friendly. You have to remember some archiac button sequences to set up something like a consist or set speed steps. ?Would it have killed them to create a 2x20 line LCD display with clues and hints?
You can't walk around with it. An additional BASIC cab is $100
Wireless system isn't as robust13.8V power supply which is about 13.3V DCC when it reaches the track. This is still well below DCC Spec.Other notes:Both sets say you can use a stronger power supply. Digitrax says up to 16.5V input. But if you do that you only get 2.5 amps max before you overload the system. 15V would get you close to HO DCC spec, but then you are down to 2.8 amps before you start overloading the system (42 VA).NCE goes up to 15V input. But just like Digitrax, the more you up the voltage, the less amps it will handle.Why am I so concerned about voltage? Well voltage determines how fast your trains will go. Most motors are designed to handle up to 12V, and if your track output is less than 14.4V DCC then your train MAY NOT run at full speed. Plus most boosters are designed for 14.4 DCC. So if you want to expand later, you'll have to pick a booster that has an adjustable output voltage and turn it down. OR you'll just have to not use your original throttle as a booster at all. (which is a waste) A higher voltage can also mean smoother low speed motion.I wrote and asked about using a 15 V supply with the Digitrax and they recommended against it even though the manual says you can.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
One thing not mentioned is how the logic of each system works with how you think. I originally thought the NCE system would be perfect for my right brained mind. It performed great for awhile, but for some reason a few things proved not to my way of thinking, particularly consisting and speed matching locos on the main.
I then tried a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra which being more left brained at these two things still seemed to be more intuitive to the way I think. When I picked up the walk around DT402 these two things became very easy for me.
So now I use the Powercab at the bench to test and initially program which it does very easily with its simple to follow prompts, especially addressing. But my layout is 100 percent Digitrax. But to be fair the only persons that ever operate it are myself and occasionally my Granddaughter.
So its very important, if practical, to try both systems out before you buy.
SB