I am having problem with overload on my MRC dcc system peco turnous when I through a turnout one way its ok but if I set turnouts for different line it give me and overload on my hand set and there is not an engine on the turnout. what did i do wrong
Hi petra:
Welcome to the forums!
The Peco Electrofrog turnouts are 'power routing'. In other words, they switch the power from one route to the other when the turnout is thrown. In your case, the 'overload' (more commonly called a 'short') is likely happening when two turnouts are feeding the same rail with opposite polarities.
The easiest way to prove this is to draw a diagram of your track plan showing the two rails. Then take a red marker and draw along one of the rails all the way around the track. At some point the red line will cross over to the non coloured rail. That proves that you have a short circuit.
The solution is to set up a reversing loop so that the track polarity can be switched before the short occurs. You will have to install some insulated rail gaps to make it work. You can buy circuits that automatically do the reversing for you.
This site explains a whole lot about DCC wiring right down to how to wire each type of turnout:
Here is the section on reverse loops:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/track_2.htm#c4
Here is the section Peco Electrofrog turnouts:
http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm
Note that Peco has changed their Electrofrog design a few times, so depending how new your Pecos are there might be differences in the jumpers etc.
If you are having trouble understanding what I have said, post a track plan and we can tell you where to locate the gaps and how to wire the reverse loop(s).
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
You need to gap the two inner frog rails on a Peco Electrofrog. That will eliminate the short.
The power routing feature is part of the problem, but the real problem is that the frog is powered but not gapped, so the power runs directly through the frog.
Take a look at this website. It illustrates the shorting problem and the solution:
http://railwaybobsmodulebuildingtips.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-peco-electrofrog-circuitry.html
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainthe real problem is that the frog is powered but not gapped, so the power runs directly through the frog.
Rich:
Thank you for adding that in. I had forgotten about the frog issue. Pretty dumb considering I have converted 39 Peco Electrofrog turnouts myself.
hon30critter richhotrain the real problem is that the frog is powered but not gapped, so the power runs directly through the frog. Rich: Thank you for adding that in. I had forgotten about the frog issue. Pretty dumb considering I have converted 39 Peco Electrofrog turnouts myself. Dave
richhotrain the real problem is that the frog is powered but not gapped, so the power runs directly through the frog.
richhotrain I often wonder why Peco does not factory gap the two inner frog rails and advertise the Electrofrog as DCC Ready. That would require the user to add feeders at the ends of the turnout, but that becomes a necessity anyhow once the inner frog rails are gapped. Rich
I often wonder why Peco does not factory gap the two inner frog rails and advertise the Electrofrog as DCC Ready. That would require the user to add feeders at the ends of the turnout, but that becomes a necessity anyhow once the inner frog rails are gapped.
I think they do on another model. They market that model as Insulfrog. I only have Electrofrog, but I've heard of the other.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
This is not a DCC issue, but the question of reading the instructions, which come with the Electrofrog switches.
The instruction clearly show, how they have to be wired and when/where insulated rail joiners have to be installed to prevent short circuits.
ROBERT PETRICK richhotrain I often wonder why Peco does not factory gap the two inner frog rails and advertise the Electrofrog as DCC Ready. That would require the user to add feeders at the ends of the turnout, but that becomes a necessity anyhow once the inner frog rails are gapped. Rich I think they do on another model. They market that model as Insulfrog. I only have Electrofrog, but I've heard of the other. Robert
And then, there's the other problem...
The rails in Peco turnouts where they are gapped at the frog are very close and separated by a narrow ribbon of plastic. Sometimes, wide-tread metal wheels are wide enough to bridge the gap, causing a short.
The simple, low-tech solution is to paint over the tips of the rails with nail polish. I've done this with my Peco turnouts, and it solved the intermittent shorts that were bothering my trains as they went through. I've used both clear and black nail polish, and I've never had it wear off and have to be re-applied in many years of operation.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Sir Madog This is not a DCC issue, but the question of reading the instructions, which come with the Electrofrog switches. The instruction clearly show, how they have to be wired and when/where insulated rail joiners have to be installed to prevent short circuits.
No need to say anymore.....
Take Care!
Frank
zstripe Sir Madog This is not a DCC issue, but the question of reading the instructions, which come with the Electrofrog switches. The instruction clearly show, how they have to be wired and when/where insulated rail joiners have to be installed to prevent short circuits. No need to say anymore..... Take Care! Frank
For that reason, there is a need to say more.
Rich,
LOL....Why on earth would You want a siding not powered in DC? It would just be wired as a block. I don't understand this DCC friendly thing that God knows who started.....but there is really no differance in the wiring of that turnout whether it be DC or DCC. Older Shinohara turnouts were made almost exactly as the Peco Electro-frogs are when there was No DCC. My entire layout which uses DC can be switched to DCC just by changing the power supplys.....nothing more...no fancy wiring to change, no turnouts to change..simple! If Your layout was wired for DC cab control, both rails insulated.......You would not have to change anything to run DCC.......Just the power supplies.....
It's really not all that hard to figure out.
Heck, when I was a kid in the early 50's.....I learned to draw out My proposed track plan with two different colored crayons.....the same applys today....DC/DCC.
Frank, all of which raises the question, why not factory gap the inner frog rails since according to your logic would be required in each and every situation, DC or DCC, anyhow.
Regarding unpowered sidings in DC, as an old analog guy, you know the answer full well.
All that said, I guess that I have more of an issue with Ulrich's comments than yours. The poor OP makes his first post and asks what he is doing wrong with his Peco Electrofrog to cause shorts, and he gets told to go read the instructions included with his Peco packaging. Hardly a warm welcome to the forum, don't you think?
zstripe It's really not all that hard to figure out.
You have a point......but it's not for Me to judge anyone!
There's just something about that four letter word that gets Me going...read!
Petra..... To The Forums.....Don't mind Me...just being a Grumpy 75 yr old man today......LOL
Ulrich has been a contributor for years and not a "snippy" kind of guy. Despite his excellent grasp of the English language, he is German. They probably read manuals.
We are Amurikan men, we would rather drive around lost than ask for directions, and as far as reading the manual......
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
BigDaddy Ulrich has been a contributor for years and not a "snippy" kind of guy. Despite his excellent grasp of the English language, he is German. They probably read manuals. We are Amurikan men, we would rather drive around lost than ask for directions, and as far as reading the manual......
Agreed.
Yep, Ulrich is a good guy. No argument here.
Well, the siding wouldn;t technically be unpowered, it would be poowoered when the points were thrown that way. However, you would be providing power to the siding through the point blade contact. Run it like that for a while and let me know how well that works out...
Anyway, to make Electrofrogs truly DCC friendly, you need to cut 2 of the factory jumpers on the bottom and install new ones in the places provided. So it wouldn't be as simple as providing the gaps in the frog rails. Not to mention - there's not much rail past the frog to allow it to have a gap cut in AND keep the little bit past that still securely attached to the ties.
That said, Electrofrog is the way to go, long term the all powered rails will be more reliable for operation, even more so if smaller locos are run. Plus, the concept of gapping the diverging frog rails is as old as 2-rail model trains. Used to be ALL turnouts were like that. The things we've forgotten... the rule always was, never power a turnout from the frog side.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Not to mention - there's not much rail past the frog to allow it to have a gap cut in AND keep the little bit past that still securely attached to the ties.
Not to mention - there's not much rail past the frog to allow it to have a gap cut in AND keep the little bit past that still securely attached to the ties.
Well earlier you were wondering why they don't gap them from the factory. Because there's not enough material to gap the rails on the turnout. So the instructions say to use insulated joiners.
The gaps can be anywhere as long as it is before the next feeder - can be a foot away from the frog if you want.
rrinker Well earlier you were wondering why they don't gap them from the factory. Because there's not enough material to gap the rails on the turnout. So the instructions say to use insulated joiners. The gaps can be anywhere as long as it is before the next feeder - can be a foot away from the frog if you want. --Randy
Even as a DC operator.......
Just one in a long list of reasons why I don't use PECO turnouts. If I wanted to undo or rebuild the product before using it, I would just build my own turnouts, as I did decades ago.
In my view, using the points to direct power in unreliable over the long haul, little tabs and spring loaded points or not, so I prefer the Atlas approach from an electrical standpoint. I direct power and power frogs with seperate contacts/wiring, not with the mechanical points.......
Again, been down this road, ran on hand laid track for years........
Sheldon
Back in the old days......
With a dead end siding using power routing turnouts, you only need to gap the mainline frog rail. This will automaticly kill the siding when the turnout is set to the main as both rails will be the same polarity.
Generally a jumper will also be needed to go from ahead of the points to the rail past the gap on the mainline.
But again, I switch all that with relays, or electrical swtiches that are part of my ground throws.
The features of the PECO turnout simply work agains my whole wiring system....
That's exactly why I am going to use Peco in my new layout, after umpteen years of using nothing but Atlas track and components. I tried hand laying, even with the 'cheater' kits and jigs from Fast Tracks - it's just not for me. Mostly I just can't get good frogs and point rails even with the fixtures. Maybe I overthink it all - the first one when I just went step by step came out the best, all subsequenct practice ones were in my opinion not good enough - though they may have worked. Anyway, Peco Electrofrog gives me that same solid electrical path without having to file and solder rails. Yes, I switch the jumpers - the makes the closure rails no longer dependent on point contact for power, as it should be. Yes, I will hook up power to the frog. Because i DO run locos small enough to need it, especially on larger frog number turnouts where the frog is bigger. But there would be the same issue with Atlas #8's too, if the frog wasn't powered. That's a huge chunk of metal that would be dead otherwise, DC or DCC. THe #6's are iffy, longer locos usually work fine, DC or DCC. the #4's, even my small locos worked fine without frog power.
Nice thing about Peco's Code 83 line is it has a bigger variety of specialwork than Atlas, which I think will come in handy.
richhotrain rrinker Well earlier you were wondering why they don't gap them from the factory. Because there's not enough material to gap the rails on the turnout. So the instructions say to use insulated joiners. The gaps can be anywhere as long as it is before the next feeder - can be a foot away from the frog if you want. --Randy Oh, I agree, but I don't see a contradiction in what I said. A factory installed gap can be done much more easily and cleanly than a guy sitting at his work bench. Rich
Oh, I agree, but I don't see a contradiction in what I said. A factory installed gap can be done much more easily and cleanly than a guy sitting at his work bench.
I have a #5 Electrofrog in my hand looking at it right now. If the frog rails were cut at the factory to gap it, the stubs left over where you connect the rest of the track would be held on by 2, 3 at best sets of spikes. Pretty much gurantee if you joined the turnout to another piece of track with a good rail joiner and then pulled it apart, the stub rail would pull right out with it. The gap they do cut in the point side of the frog is, on this #5, 6 ties back towards the points, leaving plenty of attachment points to hold the frog assembly in place.
One other factor, if they gapped the diverging side frog rails, those stubs would be completely unpowered, unless they ran additional jumpers somewhere.
Me, if I don't use insulated joiners (the Peco ones are actually quite small and not as ugly as the Atlas ones - and they are clear), I will just cut a gap about 6-7 ties into the next pieces of track beyond the frog, keeping everything securely attached to the 'spikes'. Since I am planning to power the frogs, that means those rails will have solid power from my frog relays.