I have been using Digitrax on my large home layout for about three years. Ran my third operating session last night and had multiple issues. The radio throttles basically lost signal with the loco net and had to keep them plugged in. I have several of the UR 92's and several UP5's Along with a DCS100 and 2 DB150's. It seems like for the past three years, there is one problem after another one. That is just the most recent. A couple of the guys in the group that has Digitrax has told me everything seems to be connected and wired properly. Quite honestly, I am seriously looking at investing in NCE even though I have put thousands of dollars in Digitrax. What is your all's thoughts on the NCE system as far as it being easier and more reliable? Even when the Digitrax is running well, the functions on the throttle don't seem to be intuitive. Is the NCE throttles more user-friendly? I know this will probably generate two sides of the discussion. The side that will help me troubleshoot and the side that will help me decide if NCE is simpler and more reliable. I encourage both discussions here.
Thanks, Rob
Unless you have done so already, I would start with a software update of both the UR92 an your throttles.
Jack W.
I've had Digitrax for 13 years now and it has always been flawless. No radio stuff yet though.
Have radio for the club layout, and it generally works during shows with no issus - mostly it's someone fat-fingering a loco address and wondering why 1234 doesn't move when they keyed in 1224, or the battery in the throttle runs down after using it for 6 hours continuously. Odd loss of control is very rare.
This would point to some sort of config issue. While it may sound based on description that everything is set up properly, this analysis is only based on the descriptions given, since no one is looking and validating these things. There are many things that can interfere with 2.4GHz radio, like cordless phones (not cell phones), microwave ovens, wifi routers, etc. You may be on a channel that is used by a wifi router or repeater. We had a problem once with a microwave we usually have at shows so people can heat up food for lunch. Someone parked it directly opposite the radio tower with the UR92 on it. I warned them this would cause a problem, but it never got moved. Until the first time someone heated up a cup of coffee and everyone simultaneously lost control of their trains.
I find the full NCE throttles to be huge and less comfortable to hold - I usually run with a DT402 held down at my side using one hand, thumb on the throttle to adjust speed and simply click it for direction. Steps for selecting a loco are the same with pretty much every DCC system, the label on the button may be slightly different but it's effectivelt eh same button presses. There are no throttle IDs to manage with Digitrax, no sets of "these channels can be wireless, these cannot" stuff. The Loconet peer to peer bus menas no upgrading the command station to enable new feautes, plus it is far faster and more capable than NCE's cab bus - plus you have to run a seperate bus for command station to downstream boosters - it's all the same Loconet with Digitrax. To the point that many NCE users install a Loconet bus for signals and block detection. So stick with it, there are many many people who run Digitrax and not have problems. With some very large layouts.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Rob,
Your statement of spending a lot of money on one, and now wondering if you should spend the same or more on another, over an issue of losing radio signal, has me curious. Why?
Something is causing interference, and that something will continue too be an issue, regardless of which brand you use.
FCC regulations require non-essential items that use radio frequencies to:
1- Not cause harmful interference to other (deemed essentia) items across same/close bands, and,
2- Accept any interference (even if disruptive, or rendering completely inoperative) from other devices operating on or near same band.
You have a interference issue, not a brand issue. Find out what is operating nearby that causes said interferenc, and either eliminate or reduce the issue if you can, if not optional, or can not be found, switch to either wired or IR line of sight operation.
Sitching brands, and spending more money on said brand switch, will not help you.
Sorry if this is not the answer you are looking for.
(If it makes you feel any better, and you decide to switch, I will kindly accept any and all of your old Digitrax equipment you wish to donate to me. )
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
I cut my DCC teeth, so to speak, on a club-owned Wangrow System 1 (same basic design as NCE, including the throttles).
But when it was time for me to buy a DCC system for my home layout, I went with Digitrax for a number of reasons I won't bother to list.
That was 10+ years ago, and I have never once regretted that choice. The only issue I've ever had was a DT400 that was a victim of the capacitor plague, and that's hardly a Digitrax-only problem.
If you're continually having issues, I'd respectfully suggest that you don't have something set up properly, or are otherwise asking it to perform outside it's intended envelope.
You mentioned your Duplex throttles dropping, and Jack has properly suggested that you make sure that both your throttles and UR92's have the latest firmware updates.** Since Digitrax very recently re-did their UR92 firmware to fix an issue that was discovered, Jack's suggestion is an excellent place to start.
But you haven't given us a clue as to what other "problems" you've encountered, so we can't hope to shed any light on them.
**This is one of the areas where I feel Digitrax excels. They are designing their new products so the firmware can be user-updated. None of that, "You can only get the bug fixes you need if you buy our EPROM that we're charging you for since we included one 'New Feature' that you probably don't care about anyway."
SWA737 It seems like for the past three years, there is one problem after another one. That is just the most recent.
What are the other problems you have been experiencing the your Digitrax system? Perhaps a list of issues could help provide the Digitrax experts here with more insight. Has it always been radio issues? (In which case, I'm sure they are all correct on their diagnosis of interference) If there are other issues, I'm sure they can help.
Mike
If you are having throttle signaling problems, try using JMRI and a smartphone app with the PR3 first before you throw the baby out with the bath water.
As to the booster issues, there could be multiple problems from feedbacks to power spikes, to low voltage shorts that is causing them to burn out.
I like to suggest that common rail go bye bye if you still have it, OR use of opto isolated boosters. (Optional on Digitrax)
People love NCE. It's VERY user friendly. I will not argue with this. However I had less than good luck with their boosters. They constantly burnt out. Last I heard, we went through about 5 in about 2 years. And we breakered every district to 3 amps current max, and checked for voltage drops between blocks. We even stuck them on an open bench with a fan blowing over them to keep them cool. We rarely if ever ran them to their limits.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
With the wireless throttles make sure you have good batteries. If they get low the things quit working. I always keep all mine plugged in. The club I belong to has Digitrax and one of the guys has a wireless I believe its a 402r. The dcc gurus found if his battery was low it quit working. Apparently not all batteries are a true 9v.
CGW121 With the wireless throttles make sure you have good batteries. If they get low the things quit working. I always keep all mine plugged in. The club I belong to has Digitrax and one of the guys has a wireless I believe its a 402r. The dcc gurus found if his battery was low it quit working. Apparently not all batteries are a true 9v. Mike
Thats very true! I have a fairly new DT402D throttle I was using last weekend at a modular layout and was having problems losing connection. It turns out it was the battery was too drained - voltage was too low. Replace it with a better one and that fixed the issue.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
SWA737The radio throttles basically lost signal with the loco net and had to keep them plugged in.
This is a common problem I've experienced operating at Digitrax layouts, and I've run on numerous examples nearly coast to coast in the US. When it came time to switch to DCC from my old RailCommand system, radio throttle performance was a major factor in choosing NCE.
Is the NCE throttles more user-friendly?
I find them to be so, especially for programming and consisting, as well as for using accessory decoders. A couple of my operators have decided to switch from Digitrax to NCE after running on my layout, citing ease of throttle use as a big reason.
With the above having been said, I'd strongly encourage you to find an NCE layout where you can operate with it before making a switch yourself. Choosing a DCC system is an individual preference, and what works well for me may not suit you.
Rob Spangler
Batteries matter a LOT. Standard alkaline cells are 1.5V, a "9V" battery has 6 cells in series for a true 9V.
Rechargeable batteries, NiCAD and NiMH, cells are 1.2V. A "9V" battery usually has 7 cells, for only 8.4V. There are 8 cell batteries, for 9.6V, but you do have to be careful as some exceed the standard 9V Rect form factor and don't physically fit (usually too thick to get the battery cover on). There are some that do work fine though. Digitrax throttles are not huge current hogs, at least if you turn the backlight off (single biggest draw), but they are sensitive to voltage, so starting at 8.4V is already a problem, it doesn;t have to discharge far to be too low.
There are newer batteries that have low self-discharge rates. That's not true of normal NiMH or NiCads - charge them up, put them in a drawer, and a week later they are mostly discharged. So you may THINK you have a fresh battery, because after last week's op session, it was charged up before being put away.
Perhaps you can find an experienced user nearby to take a look at your setup. If you were within a reasonable drive of me I would gladly come by and take a look at your issues.
When Digitrax went to Duplex (which was long overdue), they chose 2.4 GHz as the frequency. Due simply to physics, this does not propagate as well as the 900 MHz frequency used by NCE (and in the older Digitrax Simplex radios, I believe).
If RF propagation is the issue, a change in vendor might help. But try the battery and other suggestions first.
In my personal experience, NCE throttles are much easier to use than Digitrax, but you should certainly try for yourself before making a change.
It also matters what others use in your area (for knowledge, extra throttles, etc.). Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, NCE seems to have the edge.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Stevert**This is one of the areas where I feel Digitrax excels. They are designing their new products so the firmware can be user-updated. None of that, "You can only get the bug fixes you need if you buy our EPROM that we're charging you for since we included one 'New Feature' that you probably don't care about anyway."
Steve,
I've had my Power Cab for nearly 10 years. While it does have the most recent firmware installed in it, I only recollect paying for one upgrade EEPROM (out of 2 or 3) over that time. Most of the time I contacted NCE via e-mail and Larry sent it to me - FREE of charge. To remove the old EEPROM and install the new one was only a 5-min. job. That said, I think Digitrax's approach is a good one.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I am also a very satisfied NCE user. I have a PowerCab on my programming track. It can also be used as a wired throttle on the layout, which is powered by a PowerPro 5 amp, plus another 5 amp booster. Never had any issues .
The hammerhead throttles do it all, but are largish. I don't find that a problem, but I have big hands. They and the other throttes all have nice larger buttons relative to the Digitrax throttles I've used.Consisting and other programming is easy and intuitive. I rarely need to consult the manual and when I do it's all pretty clear to me.
The smaller form factor throttles work easily in one hand. All of mine are radio throttles, except the PwerCab and it always works great after the radio update NCE did back around 2010 (before that, they had issues from time to time.)
My layout is mostly narrowgauge and without any need for signals. That's the only clear advantage I can see for me in Digitrax vs NCE and since I don't need signals...and with LCC coming under steam at last with the NMRA's finalization of the specs recently, that advantage will become less clear than in the past.
I have some limited experience with Digitrax, as everyone else around here tends to adopt it because "it's what everyone else uses..." So when I go to ops sessions elsewhere, there is almost always some drama over something and no one is quite sure exactly what the solution or even the problem is. When they vist here, despite the unfamiliar throttle, there is rarely any issue or question even about how to do something. We just run trains
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
This passed year I replaced a Digitrax system that I had over $500.00 invested in it with an NCE Power Pro 5 amp system. I should have done it years ago. It is one of the best things I have done to my layout since I started on it ~20 years ago.
SouthPenn This passed year I replaced a Digitrax system that I had over $500.00 invested in it with an NCE Power Pro 5 amp system. I should have done it years ago. It is one of the best things I have done to my layout since I started on it ~20 years ago.
I've had my Digitrax Chief system since the late 1990's but haven't been able to use it but a little due to a divorce an living in small apartments for over 15 years. As I use it more now lately I will have to make cheat notes to do basic things like consisting. I got to operate in the UK last year with NCE so am intriged. I can't afford to wholesale replace my system right now but may look into NCE when finances are available in the future.
After you do it a few times it becomes automatic. The command station consisting is quite flexible, especially because of the dual throttle in the DT throttles. You can have the consist speed and direction controlle dby one knob, and select any individual loco in the consist on the other to operate functions.
My ex father in law is by no means a technical genius and after I showed him how to do things a couple of times he was able to turn on the layout and run his trains when I wasn't around.
If you bought that system long ago and it has a DT100 or DT300 throttle - don;t replace the whole thing, get a DT402. FAR easier than the old ones. The DT100 is insanely complicated due to trying to make it do everything with just 8 buttons. You can't have a full featured throttle that can do all programming with just 8 buttons. I picked one up cheap and it makes a great throttle to just run trains (sound or not, I find 8 functions are PLENTY - lights, horn, bell - I don't need an 'automated grade crossing', I think we all know the proper sequence - station calls? cows mooing? I don't need or use any of those extra functions packed in some sound decoders. If I wanted that I'd build a Lionel layout. But to attempt to program on a DT100 is just insane. The DT300 is slightly better but still has the problem of only 8 buttons, so everything is shift and alt. The DT400 and 402 have so many buttons because each button does only 1 thing. No holding down some combination of buttons to make something happen.
I just don;t see justification for dumping hundreds of dollars of equipment, at least not when it's already a decent system. If you had one of those other brands that had no expansion capability and you need more, then there is no choice. But both NCE and Digitrax have been fully expandable with no parts to throw out as you get bigger from day 1. Using JMRI to program makes both systems identical in that regard. My era and railroad choice means no fancy lighting in my locos, just front and rear lights, so all I need to set on a new decoder is an address for the most part, so it's really more of a pain to fire up JMRI and program, setting an address is dead simple. Sticking with one brand of decoder means you learn the settings pretty quickly - plus my particular choice has self adjustung motor control, so I don't need to full around with all those CVs to make each loco run well. More critical with sound decoders - I have one oddball and do you think I can remember how to change the volume on that one? Nope. It's the same CVs on every other one of my sound locos so I don't even have to look it up any more. None of that though has anything to do with the system involved, just ways of making your life simpler.
Ahhh. Ford vs. Chevy. S&W vs. Colt. EMACS vs. vi...
I bought the NCE PowerCab when I started 3 1/2 yrs ago and I've never regretted it. When I outgrow that I can simply add components without replacing anything.
I belonged to an NCE club with ~1200 ft of main line and ~500 cars. Most members had radio cabs and there were few DCC problems.
I now belong to two Digitrax clubs (one NTRAK), and the stationary layout also has few DCC problems. A couple of years ago the NTRAK club was at a show and unable to use its radio throttles. By the end of the show it was discovered that a wireless credit card system was trashing the duplex radio system.
Having used both I prefer NCE. The larger throttle is much simpler, with larger buttons; the smaller throttles are about the same to me.
I like NCE's advanced consisting. If I have two locomotives back-to-back, when I get to the end of the line I call up the same consist using the address of the other loco, and run it back to the origin. With Digitrax I'd need to break the consist and make a new consist with the other loco as "Top".
I can add or subtract a locomotive in an existing NCE consist without disturbing the rest; I'd need to break and re-define a Digitrax consist to do that.
I really like the twin left-right knobs of the Digitrax DT300 and DT402 throttles. On the NCE hammerheads I can only see one loco at a time; I can recall the previous loco with only one button-press.
If I were buying today I would still go with NCE. That said, the choice between systems isn't really technical; it's personal preference. *
Good luck with yours, whatever you decide.
* With one exception. As much as I like NCE, I don't believe it would be suitable for a really, really large layout--larger than the vast majority of us have.
kevinrrWith one exception. As much as I like NCE, I don't believe it would be suitable for a really, really large layout--larger than the vast majority of us have.
Water Level Route kevinrr With one exception. As much as I like NCE, I don't believe it would be suitable for a really, really large layout--larger than the vast majority of us have.
kevinrr With one exception. As much as I like NCE, I don't believe it would be suitable for a really, really large layout--larger than the vast majority of us have.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain Water Level Route kevinrr With one exception. As much as I like NCE, I don't believe it would be suitable for a really, really large layout--larger than the vast majority of us have. I am very curious about that comment as well. Rich
I am very curious about that comment as well.
If this can answer a little, I used to be a casual operator on a large club layout, which is now dismantled. The size of the layout was 40 x 100 feet, command station was a NCE PH Pro 10 A plus 10 Boosters of 10 A each, and at time 40 operators were running trains at the same time. All this without problems except for the wireless which was not reliable, so we only used thetered thottles during operating sessions.
jalajoieexcept for the wireless which was not reliable,
Early problems with the wireless have been corrected.
Concerning "large" home railroads, friend has a 30 by 80 foot space, with an addition half as big attached, all filled with multiple railroad levels. He uses NCE without issue.
He did have a small problem when he initially converted over from Digitrax, but he found that he was using too many of the radio repeaters. I believe he is down to only two now.
There were some teething issues years ago with the first versions of NCE wireless, but it's now used here in the northern California bay area on large layouts (with many throttles in use at one time) with no problems.
As a large DCC/NCE layout owner I find the not able to handle large layouts comment incorrect. My RR is about 3120 sq ft with multiple decks. Mainline length is 1400 ' Before going to radio my plug in buss was 750'. I have had Lenz, Sys 1, Digitrax and NCE as control systems. I started with DCC in 1993 with Lenz. Then to Sys 1 then to Digitrax and finally to NCE. Sys 1, Digitrax and NCE could all handle the physical size and track power conditions. BUT where Digitrax falls short in large operations is their limited capability to only handle 120 active locomotives. While this seems like a large number when you start consisting units together on trains in staging and in engine terminals and run 40-55 trains per session the slot max problem becomes an issue. NCE does not have this issue period. I know a number of large clubs have Digitrax and use a computer with decoder pro to manage their slots during a session but I do not want to sit and manage that during an op session. The advanced consisting that NCE uses is far more user and operations friendly than the universal consisting used by Digitrax. While Digitrax does offer advanced consisting as an option you have to use the consist address to operate the consist and that requires changing cv 21/22 to allow the engineer to operate the bell,horn etc. Most people will never tax their DCC systems to their full capabilities but in my experience NCE has the better capabilty to handle large layouts and operations than Digitrax. My suggestion is to try both systems , mu engines run them , operate both ends as seperate unit addresses and break up the consists. Then make your decision. ---- Ken McCorry
KemacPrr ...here Digitrax falls short in large operations is their limited capability to only handle 120 active locomotives. While this seems like a large number when you start consisting units together on trains in staging and in engine terminals and run 40-55 trains per session the slot max problem becomes an issue. NCE does not have this issue period...
...here Digitrax falls short in large operations is their limited capability to only handle 120 active locomotives. While this seems like a large number when you start consisting units together on trains in staging and in engine terminals and run 40-55 trains per session the slot max problem becomes an issue. NCE does not have this issue period...
This is true; however, you can get around the 120 slot limit by using advanced consisting and just programming CV19 by hand. The main limit for NCE is the number of throttles - every throttle has to have a unique address from 2-63, giving you a limit of 62 throttles, so the maximum number of users on NCE is 62 while the maximum number of users on Digitrax is 120.
CSX RobertThe main limit for NCE is the number of throttles - every throttle has to have a unique address from 2-63, giving you a limit of 62 throttles, so the maximum number of users on NCE is 62 while the maximum number of users on Digitrax is 120.
That's the limitation I had in mind when I commented, and I was thinking of a VERY LARGE layout of {bignum} NTRAK modules--the kind of super-monster layout that happens for one or two days maybe a few times a year.
My point was actually that NCE's system is very well thought-out and able to meet almost everyone's needs. How many times do you see more than 60 throttles operating one layout at the same time?
I believe NCE's advanced consisting beats Digitrax's twice every day of the week, including Sunday. ;)
But remember: Fords and Chevies, S&W and Colt, EMACS and vi. We don't all have to agree, but I hope we all have fun.
I have no experience with NCE at all. However I find consisting with Digitrax very straight forward. Enter the first loco then on the other side enter the second loco, press mu and then press + to add or - to remove. I do not see why that is considered complex, it is a lot simpler than trying to turn on my sons tv system, which is so complex I have to have my 5 year old grandson do that.