I installed an ez track live frog turnout and made the live frog connection. A few minutes later the turnout was smoking and all the turnout wiring insulation was melted. Just how was I supposed to add the turnout to my dcc powered loop of track?
By 'loop' do you mean the track from one side of the turnout looped around and came in the other side of the turnout? If so, you made a reverse loop which is a dead short. Doesn't matter, DC or DCC, a reverse loop needs insulating joiners and some method of polarity reversal. It's easy to make this automatic with DCC, which is what autoreversers are for.
If you just stuck the turnout in an otherwise oval of track and had a simple stub siding - did you have feeder wires in the siding? Power routing turnouts need to have the diverging legs of the frog insulated, because power feeding in from the frog side is a dead short on one side or the other, depends which way the points are thrown.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I just stuck the turnout in the oval. After the melt down, I saw a picture someplace about how I was supposed to insulate the frog the way you suggest but I'm glad to have the correction confirmed.
One of my sound value S 2s was on the oval when I added the turnout. Now, the decoder in the loco may be messed up and even the motor because I can't get the loco to reset: no lights, no sound and possibly no motor. I'll start disassembly tomorrow and test things out. Thanks for the quick response.
copeia I just stuck the turnout in the oval. After the melt down, I saw a picture someplace about how I was supposed to insulate the frog the way you suggest but I'm glad to have the correction confirmed. One of my sound value S 2s was on the oval when I added the turnout. Now, the decoder in the loco may be messed up and even the motor because I can't get the loco to reset: no lights, no sound and possibly no motor. I'll start disassembly tomorrow and test things out. Thanks for the quick response.
Is this the procedure you used to reset the decoder?
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,28359.0.html
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
RR Baron Powering the frog - Recommended for analog operation ONLY. NOT recommended for DCC operation as a short circuit may occur when operating in DCC that could damage your locomotive. RR Baron
In the legal and marketing speak department this is known as "Cover your tail" or CYT/CYB.
The likelihood of you actually ruining a decoder is small for DCC as the DCC breaker will trip (All bets are off if you used over a 3 amp booster) I personally limit my blocks to 2 amps now.
Now if you were using DC, or powered the frog with DC and the rails with DCC, and a cheap power pack which doesn't limit current, THEN you might have an issue.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
No. I had something from Tony's Trains that I followed.
Thanks. Somewhat comforting.
Thought I read all the warnings. Guess not.
Guess I'll try to wire a Peco electrofrog turnout (hate to give up on short 4 axle switchers/DCC and sound). Except for the short pieces of wire for the point rail feeds, the wiring looks easy.
Am I headed in a good direction?
You can use them exactly as they come. You cannot install the extra point rail connections without making the other modifications by cutting the jumpers on the underside and you'll then want to power the frog. You must also use insulated joiners in the two pieces of rail that meet at the frog.
Depending ont he turnout size - I have no issues with small 4 axle locos like Alco S1's and even a 44 tonner over $4 Atlas turnouts without powering the frog. Larger sizes you may want to power the frog. My 'trick' if it was one, was having feeders on both rails at all 3 legs. You can do this with Atlas, you CANNOT do this with Peco Electrofrog or other power routing turnouts.
Another option, works even if you don't install point motors on Peco Electrofrog - Tam Valley Frog Juicers can connect directly to the frog feeder wire with no modifications to the turnout. With no modifications, point to stock rail contact is no longer the only way to get power on the point rails, it will come from the Frog Juicer through the frog. The diverging rails at the frog still need insulating joiners or gaps. You cannot have power fed in from the frog side, you need gaps, and then feeders past the gaps.
Just got a frog juicer in the mail. I was trying to figure out what other two or three modifications were necessary. There are gaps but may use insulating joiners, too. Thanks for the info, I was just about to do everything David Popp did in his videos, even with a frog juicer.
I would have never thought to wire the Atlas turnouts the way you described. Thanks again.
Bob
rrinkerLarger sizes you may want to power the frog. My 'trick' if it was one, was having feeders on both rails at all 3 legs. You can do this with Atlas, you CANNOT do this with Peco Electrofrog or other power routing turnouts.
You can in fact power all routes of a Peco Electrofrog, but you have to do some modifications. Note: this will disable the power-routing feature of the turnout.
Gaps will need to be cut to isolate the frog, both on the diverging end of frog and the side with the turnout points. I then insert a small piece of .010-.020" styrene into the gap, depending on the method used to cut and how careful I was. I then CA this styrene in place. You can now power your frog with a frog juicer.
Next turn the turnout over. On the back on Peco Mediums and Larges there are four gaps in a line in the plastic between the ties. If not, pick a spot where the rails are only 1/4" apart and remove the plastic between 2 ties, being careful not to damage said ties. Solder a piece of copper wire between the rails that are on the same side, making sure that the wire does not stick down below the level of the ties on the turnout.
Yes, if you gap the frog rails - so you AREN'T powering all legs. Cutting a gap and then putting feeders ont he frog side is the sme as putting insulated joiners on the frog rails and adding feeders past them.
You do not have to cut gaps in the point side of the frog - there are jumpers underneath that you can cut for this, at least on the code 83 ones. Code 83 ones also already have a cleared spot to solder jumpers for point to stock rail connections. This is the standard "make them DCC friendly" option shown on Wiring for DCC. The cuts to isolate the frog are also shown on the back of the package (I have 3 sitting here on my desk).
You don;t actually have to do this if using a Frog Juicer (at least the latest version of them), the Juicer can hand switching the frog/point polairty when the points touch their adjacent stock rails, however that does still leave open the possibility of a wheel touching the open point rail and causing a short, so the modifications are well worth it. Given the short section of rail past the frog, I'd just as soon make the gaps in the connecting rail - unlike a Fast Tracks built turnout that has those rails soldered to some PC ties, there is just the small spike detail holding the rails on Peco turnouts. Plus Peco's insulated joiners are very small and clear, not nearly as noticable as Atlas ones.
The difference with Atlas is that since the rails are all insulated from each other, and the frog is isolated from the closure rails, if you put feeders on both diverging routes you gain a power source into the closure rails that does not rely on the hinge joint for the points to carry power. If you feed an Atlas only from the point side, the closure rails and the rails beyond the frog only get power from the little metal plate that is pressed between the stock rails and the point/closure rail hinge - it's generally not even soldered to the stock rails, just pressed in between the rail and ties. Feeding from the frog end, plus short pieces of flexible wire to bridge the hinge gap, make them absolutely bulletproof - though I never had any problem without installing those jumper wires, and I completely painted over the hinge area so the shiny metal did not show.
rrinker Yes, if you gap the frog rails - so you AREN'T powering all legs. Cutting a gap and then putting feeders ont he frog side is the sme as putting insulated joiners on the frog rails and adding feeders past them.
Yes, but Im not a fan of insulated rail joiners. Just giving an option other than using them.
rrinker You do not have to cut gaps in the point side of the frog - there are jumpers underneath that you can cut for this, at least on the code 83 ones. Code 83 ones also already have a cleared spot to solder jumpers for point to stock rail connections. This is the standard "make them DCC friendly" option shown on Wiring for DCC. The cuts to isolate the frog are also shown on the back of the package (I have 3 sitting here on my desk).
This still leaves the frog guard rails energized. Which could cause a short if you have a slightly out of guage wheelset or you are entering a turnout from a curve. Basically what I suggested is turn your electrofrog into an insulfrog turnout, but with a powered metal frog instead of a plastic one. Some of the older code 100 ones do not have the plastic removed, as well as I believe all of the PECO short turnouts.
No it doesn;t leave the frog guard rails energized if you cut the existing jumper on the back. Well, sort of - they are all energized to the frog polarity, so there is no chance of a short. The guard rails along the stock rails aren't energized at all, to any polarity, at least on the code 83 turnouts., They aren't connected to anything. Cutting that jumper and then supplying power to the frog makes the entire frog area, from the gaps halfway up the closure rails to the end of the turnout, all one polarity. Same as a Fast Tracks turnout.
On code 100 they are physically connected, at least on the old ones. All I know is I had a dead short on my electrofrog until I completely isolated the frog. This may no longer be applicable to as they appear to have redesigned the turnout. http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/HO-OO%20Electrofrog%20Turnouts.pdf
My recent purchases have all be insulfrogs, as I am not bothered by a frog that is a different material than the reset of the track (plastic) and way easier to deal with.
I'm taking the simplest suggestion first. If that doesn't work for ez track steel alloy (for some reason(s) my locos run best on ez steel alloy), then I will do the next more complex suggestion and if that doesn't woork.... I have really learned a lot on this thread. I also bought a tam valley booster when I bought the frog juicer after reading a tam valley faq using ez turnoutsbut I think I do not really need it unless I was using ez commander but I'm using NCE and already have an NCE booster.
Thanks.