Why do they call them "Engineers?"

[Anonymous]

Okay, my brain is telling me that they're called "Engineers" because originally they drove steam 'engines' thus, 'engine-eers', like the movie "Rocketeer"... he flew around with a rocket pack, therefor, 'rocket-eer', or like the Mickey Mouse Club 'mouse-ka-teers'.

However, this issue just came up recently at my job (electric utility company) in another department. From what I was told, the Georgia Department of Labor won't legally let you call yourself (in resume's or job applications) or be titled on the job as an 'engineer' unless you have a college degree in some field of engineering. As a result, one of the employees who had been titled that, but didn't have a degree, was stripped of the title for what they said were 'legal reasons'. My assumption is that the company doesn't want to get sued by a consumer for having something go wrong that was planned or constructed by an 'engineer' who doesn't meet the GA DOL specifications of what an 'engineer' should be.

I would guess someone who command/drives a locomotive, would legitimately be called an engineer because of the tradition and historical connotation behind the term. However, in the railroad industry today, do they use a different term or title for the same position or are they still titled as Engineers?

[David_Telesha]

Simply because you do NOT "drive" a train.

[Anonymous]

The term "Engineer" as applied to someone who operates a locomotive is a legacy from the steam era. A steam locomotive is a fairly complicated boiler system and the operator did more than simply apply the throttle and toot the whistle. Similarly, those people with Black Seal licenses who operate the boiler system for a large building are often referred to as "Custodial Engineers."

[tomikawaTT]

Compare a train to a ship (no matter what propels it)

On a train, the engineer operates the machinery that provides movement, or stopping power when the train is moving. The conductor is in charge, but doesn't run the engine. The rails steer the train, under direction of some human somewhere operating through a communications network of some kind.

Aboard a ship, the engineer of the watch operates the machinery that provides movement, or, if in reverse, stopping power. (He is located below deck and has no idea of what is going on outside his engine room.) The mate of the watch is in charge of safe navigation, either by hands-on control or by giving orders to the helmsman and telegraph operator. The Captain has the overall responsibility, but very seldom takes a direct part in navigation once he has given his orders to the mate - frequently in the form of a log entry.

Notice the similarity between the conductor and the ship's captain, and between the mate of the watch and the CTC operator or dispatcher. As for the engineer - same job, same conditions. He can't steer it, all he can do is influence speed in accordance with someone else's orders.

At least the locomotive engineer can see where he's going.

Chuck

[Anonymous]

As far as I know it is only in the US that they are called "engineers". The rest of the English speaking world I think refers to them as "drivers". I do not know about Canada though. Our cousins in Canada live under the shadow of the US so that they often suffer from pervasive influence.

As for Chuck's analogy, the firemen on trains in the days of steam did not get called stokers. Or did they? Who will come up with an instance of the fireman being referred to as the stoker?

[tomikawaTT]

Bush9245

I've never heard of a locomotive fireman being called a stoker. Seems they reserved that for the machine that took over the heaviest part of his job.

However, oil-fired steamships didn't have stokers, and coal burners have been history for a long time now.

Chuck (ex-fireman-watertender)

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

Simply because you do NOT "drive" a train.

Really? So what do you reckon drivers do, then?

I ask because at the top of my pay docket, right under my name and employee number, is my job classification, which reads "Driver, ETR." Now, when I go to work, I would describe what I do as driving trains. What would you call it?

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bush9245

As for Chuck's analogy, the firemen on trains in the days of steam did not get called stokers. Or did they? Who will come up with an instance of the fireman being referred to as the stoker?

I've often seen firemen being referred to as "stokers", but only by ignorant newspaper and television "journalists". I once criticised a journo about this after my photo appeared in a local paper, captioned as me "stoking the boiler"!!! Her response was that readers would be confused by the term fireman, they'd expect to see a bloke in a brass helmet riding around on a red truck...

[nbrodar]

The term is still Locomotive Engineer. A) because of histortical reasons, and B) that what is says on my Federal Railroad Administration licene.

Most US locomotive engineers will take great offence if you say they "drive" trains. We run or operate trains, we do not drive them. I'm not sure the reasoning.

Nick

[AltonFan]

I believe in the UK locomotive engineers are called "drivers".

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

Simply because you do NOT "drive" a train.

Really? So what do you reckon drivers do, then?

I ask because at the top of my pay docket, right under my name and employee number, is my job classification, which reads "Driver, ETR." Now, when I go to work, I would describe what I do as driving trains. What would you call it?

Mark.

Maybe where you live but here, you are a railroad locomotive engineer. Or if you work for a subway or lightrail, you're a motorman...

Drivers, drive stuff... Engineers operate trains.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do not know ANY US engineers who call themselves "drivers".

[leighant]

I heard of a politically correct newspaper editor who insisted that to avoid the genderistically discriminatory term "fireman", the person who works as assistant to a locomotive engineer should be referred to as a "fire FIGHTER".

[Anonymous]

In Russia locomotive drivers (steam of diesel) are called "machinists".

[Jetrock]

The term "driver" in the US referred to someone who drives an animal--a mule driver, a horse driver--and one who drives a team of animals is a "teamster." Partially because of the high-tech nature of the steam locomotive, and partially because this new breed of high-tech worker wanted to separate himself from the lowly horse, ox or mule driver, the name "engineer" stuck. Similarly, the term "motorman" was intended to emphasize the high-tech electric nature of the job over the position of someone whose job it is to coax a smelly, ornery animal to move.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nbrodar

Most US locomotive engineers will take great offence if you say they "drive" trains. We run or operate trains, we do not drive them. I'm not sure the reasoning.

Sounds to me like you're all just being a bit precious! [:D]

Drivers in Australia, the UK, and many other countries have always been known thus, and take no offence. But we should simply agree to disagree - it's just another example of differing terminology being used to describe the same thing.

Cheers,

Mark.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AltonFan

I believe in the UK locomotive engineers are called "drivers".

That is correct, as well as countries where the railways have historical ties to the UK, such as Australia, New Zealand, Africa, India, South America, Japan, and so on.

[marknewton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

Maybe where you live but here, you are a railroad locomotive engineer.

No maybe about it, David. Where I live the term is driver.

QUOTE: Drivers, drive stuff... Engineers operate trains.

Probably only in the United States, I'll wager...[;)]
I don't know what term is favoured in Canada, but in the English-speaking world men and women who drive trains are called train drivers. Even in many non-English speaking countries, the local term translates as driver.

QUOTE: Sorry to disappoint you, but I do not know ANY US engineers who call themselves "drivers".

Why would I be disappointed? In the US you use one term, the rest of the world uses something different. Nothing unusual about that. I'd only be disappointed if you were to insist that only the US usage was correct.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Isambard]

In Canada the term "Engineer" or "Professional Engineer"is legally reserved for persons who are accredited by the professional engineering associations of the respective provincial authorities. These are generally graduates with an Engineering degree or equivalent or those who have appropriate experience and meet accreditation requirements.

In the days of steam in Canada the guy who controlled the locomotive was called an "Engineer", even by some of us who were proud to be professional engineers. I don't know what the Canadian practice is for those things called diesel locomotives.

I recall that at graduation time a cartoon was distributed around our school which showed a Mortimer Snerd-like yokel clutching a diploma and saying "Last weak I cudnt even spell "Ingineer" and now I are wun!"

"Engineers" are firmly in control of the Grizzly Northern's locomotives!
[:)]

[AntonioFP45]

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

[tomikawaTT]

I'd like one of our French or Francophone members to let us know what the person at the throttle is called in France.

I recall reading that the throttle jockeys on French railways had to spend apprentice time in the shops, learning how to build, overhaul and maintain the machines they would later operate. Sounds similar to what I was exposed to on my (aborted) way to becoming a marine engineer.

Since I model the JNR, the katakana under 'assignment' on the call board is pronounced, "D'raiba."

Chuck

[steveiow]

Drivers in the UK but our union is the Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen-stange?

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

It depended on the railroad.....most personel referred to electric powered engines be they GG1's, Box Cabs and so forth as "Motors."

However the term used for the operators varied from road to road. True...the NYC operators south of Harriman into Manhattan had/have more in common with their 3rd rail brethren operating the subways and therefore have called themselves 'Motormen.'

The Pennsy, I believe stuck with the term 'Locomotive Engineer.' Yet the New Haven and LIRR portions of their system may have used other terms.

I'm not sure at all what the Milwaukee folks did. Anyone?

Not sure if the operators of the 'combined 3rd rail & diesel' are called......Maybe someone on the Trains web site knows.

HTH

Mark

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marknewton

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

Maybe where you live but here, you are a railroad locomotive engineer.

No maybe about it, David. Where I live the term is driver.

QUOTE: Drivers, drive stuff... Engineers operate trains.

Probably only in the United States, I'll wager...[;)]
I don't know what term is favoured in Canada, but in the English-speaking world men and women who drive trains are called train drivers. Even in many non-English speaking countries, the local term translates as driver.

QUOTE: Sorry to disappoint you, but I do not know ANY US engineers who call themselves "drivers".

Why would I be disappointed? In the US you use one term, the rest of the world uses something different. Nothing unusual about that. I'd only be disappointed if you were to insist that only the US usage was correct.

Cheers,

Mark.

LOL... OK[8D] I got the impression that you were insisting the Austrailian term drivers was "more" correct...[;)]

I hear ya...

[David_Telesha]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

It depended on the railroad.....most personel referred to electric powered engines be they GG1's, Box Cabs and so forth as "Motors."

However the term used for the operators varied from road to road. True...the NYC operators south of Harriman into Manhattan had/have more in common with their 3rd rail brethren operating the subways and therefore have called themselves 'Motormen.'

The Pennsy, I believe stuck with the term 'Locomotive Engineer.' Yet the New Haven and LIRR portions of their system may have used other terms.

I'm not sure at all what the Milwaukee folks did. Anyone?

Not sure if the operators of the 'combined 3rd rail & diesel' are called......Maybe someone on the Trains web site knows.

HTH

Mark

On the New Haven, it was locomotive engineer pure and simple.. Engineers could operate both diesel and electric -- ask Noel Weaver on the NHRHTA forum (almost 50 years from NHRR to MN and Conrail). You were an engineer whether you ran FL-9's, PA-1's, or EP-5's... He FLIPPED OUT when he saw the term motorman once...

Motorman usually refers to light rail and subways... Heavy electric is/can be a totally different animal, hence engineer for most..

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jshrade

Okay, my brain is telling me that they're called "Engineers" because originally they drove steam 'engines' thus, 'engine-eers', like the movie "Rocketeer"... he flew around with a rocket pack, therefor, 'rocket-eer', or like the Mickey Mouse Club 'mouse-ka-teers'.

Checking my 'Funk 'n Wagnalls...... the suffix 'ee'r is a convention used from 'old french method of labeling.'

So much of our legal english and titles are derived from Latin and 'Old French' words.

So along with the above quote there is.....

A 'Fusileer' is a soldier who carries and operates fuse actuated muskets.

A 'Musketeer' is trained in the operations of small arms (& No doubt Walt Disney's inspriation for "mouse-ka-teers" which has nothing to do with operating mice [#offtopic] ).

And.....

An 'Engineer' is trained in the science of operating engines that manuver (over rails or engines of war like tanks - my addition).'

In all seriousness about your concern with the Georgia codifcation of engineers, the term 'Locomotive Engineer' was codified by the Federal Government thru the USRA and the National Railroad Administration decades ago.

The term Locomotive Engineer still stands as an beaucratic headache to states who try to legislate the term 'Engineer.' Since the operation of railroads involves interstate commerce, most states usually end up making an exception.

The larger problem has been with people using the expression 'Sales Engineer' when they are neither engineers nor good sales people.

Traditionally, we always describe what type of engineering we do since the profession of 'Engineering' has become SO diverse (I should know since I'm an Architect in real life. [B)] ).

Happy Railroading....

Mark

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by David_Telesha

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark300

QUOTE: Originally posted by AntonioFP45

Something I've wondered about for a while regarding U.S locomotive engineers as far as "Heavy Electrics".

My late Uncle Juan ( related thru marriage) worked for the New York Central. He ran the big 3rd rail DC box cab electrics from Grand Central to points north. Engineer or motorman? Same question for the men running AC powered Pennsy GG1s and Milwaukee Road "LIttle Joes".

I've always assumed that "Motorman" applied to subway type MU trains but I'm now thinking that perhaps that term "likely" applies to "electric AC and DC motors" as opposed to internal combustion power.

O.K....Now to throw in a "monkey wrench": How about the men that operated the dual service FL9s, which were diesel and 3rd rail electric? Engineer or Motorman?

It depended on the railroad.....most personel referred to electric powered engines be they GG1's, Box Cabs and so forth as "Motors."

However the term used for the operators varied from road to road. True...the NYC operators south of Harriman into Manhattan had/have more in common with their 3rd rail brethren operating the subways and therefore have called themselves 'Motormen.'

The Pennsy, I believe stuck with the term 'Locomotive Engineer.' Yet the New Haven and LIRR portions of their system may have used other terms.

I'm not sure at all what the Milwaukee folks did. Anyone?

Not sure if the operators of the 'combined 3rd rail & diesel' are called......Maybe someone on the Trains web site knows.

HTH

Mark

On the New Haven, it was locomotive engineer pure and simple.. Engineers could operate both diesel and electric -- ask Noel Weaver on the NHRHTA forum (almost 50 years from NHRR to MN and Conrail). You were an engineer whether you ran FL-9's, PA-1's, or EP-5's... He FLIPPED OUT when he saw the term motorman once...

Motorman usually refers to light rail and subways... Heavy electric is/can be a totally different animal, hence engineer for most..

So..it's the same convention as used on the Pennsylvania? Hence the term 'Locomotive Engineer.'

Makes sense.....

Thanks!

Mark

[Jetrock]

On electric interurban railroads (carrying long-distance passengers) the operator was also commonly known as a motorman, and some electric freight lines used the term "motorman" to refer to the operator of a freight motor. Perhaps on lines that used steam and electric, or later diesel and electric, the term "engineer" was carried over.

[Mark300]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jetrock

On electric interurban railroads (carrying long-distance passengers) the operator was also commonly known as a motorman, and some electric freight lines used the term "motorman" to refer to the operator of a freight motor. Perhaps on lines that used steam and electric, or later diesel and electric, the term "engineer" was carried over.

The term 'locomotive Engineer' dates from before the American Civil War and certainly pre-dates any electric interurban railroad.

Since most roads used steam and later Diesel Electric in overwhelming numbers over 'electric motors,' the term 'Locomotive Engineer' prevails.

HTH

Mark

[sebamat]

in french: mécanicien : that is something like 'the one that works with an engine...'

in german. Lokomotivführer (yes Führer like in Hitler...): that means 'leader of the engine'.

in italian: macchinista (the one that works with an engine, it can also bee the engine of a ship).

Sebastiano

[jeffhergert]

Some of UP's EMD locomotives have the ATC/CCS cab signal switches incorporated into the computer display instead of a seperate switch. On these engines there is a sign posted where the switches normally would be. I don't off hand remember the exact wording, but it uses "driver" instead of engineer.

Jeff