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Missouri Pacific’s favored interchange partners (40s & 50s)?

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Missouri Pacific’s favored interchange partners (40s & 50s)?
Posted by Mjorstad on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 10:28 AM

I'm looking for some information on the Missouri Pacific's favored interchange partners during the transition era. T&P and KO&G are obvious, as they're under MP control at the time, but what other RRs frequently exchanged cars with the MoPac during the 40s-50s? I reached out to the historical society but figured I might ask here as well.

Maybe their partners would include railroads with historic corporate ties-DRGW/WP, WAB, UP, MKT (Gould); or NKP/C&O/Erie (Van Sweringens)? Or maybe they just defaulted to the major players-NYC, PRR, SP? Maybe future merger targets (successful or not) like the C&EI or SOU were already major partners? What railroads did the MP ally itself with the most, whether due to convenience or because of existing business relationships, or other factors?

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Posted by dknelson on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 11:19 AM

This is not always the easiest info to dig up but one approach is to pick a few cities where the MoPac itself was dominant, and then find out what other railroads served the same towns or cities.  There were likely interchange tracks there

So looking at my reprint of the 1928 Rand McNally Railroad Atlas (Kalmbach used to sell this), a place like Kansas City was a gathering for many railroads just about any of which would be a likely interchange partner.  Tracing MP lines across Missouri one sees towns and cities such as Sedaia, where the M-K-T crossed and as you approached St Louis I see crossings with Rock Island and Frisco. 

Thinking of St Louis, since MoPac did not go far east of there (I do see a shared line with the Cotton Belt running south on the east side of the Mississippi River) that means that all those east/west railroads that came to St Louis but did not go much further west would have been logical point to point interchanges with MoPac.

This is just by way of example.  

Even though the era is newer than yours you may want to invest in this MoPac list of industries from Ted Schnepf.  I think there could be some interchange ideas there.

http://railsunlimited.ribbonrail.com/Books/MP.jpg

Dave Nelson

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Posted by wjstix on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 4:32 PM

I don't know if the term "favored" is really correct here? A railroad will interchange with pretty much any other railroad that it is located near, since it benefits both railroads.

Stix
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Posted by NHTX on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 6:09 AM

     May I suggest you acquire a copy of the book "Missouri Pacific Lines Freight Train Services and Equipment"?  The book is hardbound, contains 144 pages and about 250 illustrations.  I just ordered my copy from the Chesapeake and Ohio Historical Society on sale at $16.95 plus shipping.

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Posted by ndbprr on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 7:39 AM

Interchange change was complicated by two factors.  The shortest route and how much of that route was on your railroad. So say a is on your rr and you originate the car. Shortest route is to hand off the car at b to another rr that is halfway.  So you split the money collected.  But you can take a longer route that is much closer to the destination handing it off at c So you get an increased portion of the revenue based on the shortest distance and the other rr gets less. So while your mains cross at b and it would be the fastest and shortest route you may interchange at c which is a branch line and a more circuitous time consuming method but more profitable for you.

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Posted by NHTX on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 8:54 AM

     Interchange need not be direct between railroads.  In larger rail centers served by many railroads, there are belt lines or terminal switching lines that serve as connectors between railroads that don't physically connect.  In the years that interest you, New Orleans had the New Orleans Public Belt, St. Louis had the Manufacturers Railway, Kansas City had the Kansas City Terminal,  LA had the Los Angeles Junction, Chicago has the Belt Railway of Chicago, the Indiana Harbor Belt and others served other cities, connecting many railroads, Mopac included.

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 1:37 PM

The MP had through ervice with the DRGW at Pueblo.  They were aligned with the Wabash (ART was a joint MP-WAB operation).  They wouldn't have interchanged much with the MKT since they were parallel and competing railroads.  Same with the SP, SSW, ATSF, KCS and CRIP.  They interchanged with both the Southern and L&N at Memphis and New Orleans.  Another big interchange connection was NdeM.

Route, which determines interchange point and road, is also not entirely determined by the railroad, the customer can specify the route also.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by Uncle_Bob on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 10:09 PM

dknelson

This is not always the easiest info to dig up but one approach is to pick a few cities where the MoPac itself was dominant, and then find out what other railroads served the same towns or cities.  There were likely interchange tracks there

So looking at my reprint of the 1928 Rand McNally Railroad Atlas (Kalmbach used to sell this), a place like Kansas City was a gathering for many railroads just about any of which would be a likely interchange partner.  Tracing MP lines across Missouri one sees towns and cities such as Sedaia, where the M-K-T crossed and as you approached St Louis I see crossings with Rock Island and Frisco. 

Thinking of St Louis, since MoPac did not go far east of there (I do see a shared line with the Cotton Belt running south on the east side of the Mississippi River) that means that all those east/west railroads that came to St Louis but did not go much further west would have been logical point to point interchanges with MoPac.

This is just by way of example.  

Even though the era is newer than yours you may want to invest in this MoPac list of industries from Ted Schnepf.  I think there could be some interchange ideas there.

http://railsunlimited.ribbonrail.com/Books/MP.jpg

Dave Nelson

 

MP naturally interchanged with the big Eastern lines at St. Louis via TRRA.  Also, depending on era, the MP and L&N split C&EI ca. 1970, giving both railroads direct access to Chicago.  Does the OP want to model a specific area and/or era, or is he looking to proto-lance MP and one or two other favorite roads?

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Posted by Mjorstad on Thursday, April 29, 2021 11:53 AM

Thank you for all your replies!

 

wjstix

I don't know if the term "favored" is really correct here? A railroad will interchange with pretty much any other railroad that it is located near, since it benefits both railroads.

 

That’s not entirely true-some RRs might have established ties, through former/current shared ownership or historic partnerships, or otherwise because they prefer a certain railroad’s route (barring shipper specifications). For example, the Wabash liked to hand off traffic to the DL&W at Buffalo as they had a long-established relationship there. Union Pacific funneled much traffic to Chicago via the CN&W through Omaha, as the C&NW was the first to build a connection there. MP itself sent a lot of traffic via the T&P because they had an ownership stake. Plenty of examples there; I’m trying to see what kind of relationships the MoPac had that were like these.

 

NHTX

     May I suggest you acquire a copy of the book "Missouri Pacific Lines Freight Train Services and Equipment"?  The book is hardbound, contains 144 pages and about 250 illustrations.  I just ordered my copy from the Chesapeake and Ohio Historical Society on sale at $16.95 plus shipping.

 

 

I believe I’ve actually read this book (unless I’m confusing it for another book, my local library has it). It’s nice but it unfortunately mostly covers the diesel era, 1960s onward. It also doesn’t provide any information on interchanges.

 

NHTX

     Interchange need not be direct between railroads.  In larger rail centers served by many railroads, there are belt lines or terminal switching lines that serve as connectors between railroads that don't physically connect.  In the years that interest you, New Orleans had the New Orleans Public Belt, St. Louis had the Manufacturers Railway, Kansas City had the Kansas City Terminal,  LA had the Los Angeles Junction, Chicago has the Belt Railway of Chicago, the Indiana Harbor Belt and others served other cities, connecting many railroads, Mopac included.

 

You forgot the most important one of all for MoPac: the TRRA of St. Louis! Manufacturers was more of an industrial switching road, TRRA served the interchanges. 

 

I’m sure the MoPac interchanged with all big eastern RRs there, the question is which one did they favor? For example, if they wanted to send cars to New York they could go through the PRR, NYC, or B&O. So who out of those three would they default to? And you have the same question for other major cities too: Chicago, Cleveland, Atlanta, Detroit, Cincinnati, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Denver, etc. So for destinations where they had multiple options, who did they like to go to?

 

dehusman

The MP had through ervice with the DRGW at Pueblo.  They were aligned with the Wabash (ART was a joint MP-WAB operation).  They wouldn't have interchanged much with the MKT since they were parallel and competing railroads.  Same with the SP, SSW, ATSF, KCS and CRIP.  They interchanged with both the Southern and L&N at Memphis and New Orleans.  Another big interchange connection was NdeM.

Route, which determines interchange point and road, is also not entirely determined by the railroad, the customer can specify the route also.

 

 

This is good info and precisely the type of info I’m looking for. Figures that the MoPac would like to send traffic east via the Wabash, given the ART ownership and former Gould connection. Appreciate the input!

 

 

Uncle_Bob

MP naturally interchanged with the big Eastern lines at St. Louis via TRRA.  Also, depending on era, the MP and L&N split C&EI ca. 1970, giving both railroads direct access to Chicago.  Does the OP want to model a specific area and/or era, or is he looking to proto-lance MP and one or two other favorite roads?

 

To specify, I'm looking to model the MP and a few other St. Louis area railroads in the transition era, and I'm researching so I know how to portion my rolling stock in terms of road names. Yes I can buy any and it would probably make sense, but I'd like to have a realistic regional mix where possible.

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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, April 29, 2021 12:36 PM

The MP also had a stake in the Alton and Southern after 1968, but that sorta implies they had a relationship before that.  

Looking at the 1950 Official Railway Guide, the condensed freight schedules don't show any specific connections to other roads other than to the DRGW at Pueblo and the SP at El Paso.  The big gateways to the east apper to be Dupo (E St Louis), Memphis, and Baton Rouge (which is one that gets forgotten a lot, but was bigger in the past).  St Louis is referred to as "Dupo (E. St Louis)" in the schedules.  Maybe the TRRA built the train, drug it to Dupo and the "official" MoP train ran out of Dupo.  Omaha and Kansas City are also connection/origination points.  St Joseph MO would be a connection for meat and cattle, though the St Joseph Belt Railway, a MP subsidiary.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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