dehusman And because the yards are plugged its going to take and extra 24 hours to process through the yards.
Dave,Try up to 40 hours at some choke point terminals.
We modelers don't have the issues real railroads have including track out of service due to a MOW work window,lack of rested crews,in some cases a shortage of locomotives. We don't classify then run 12,000' trains either.
We sure enough don't follow operation and safety rules that eats time,spend time in a siding,waiting outside a yard for a inbound track to open,hit vehicles at crossings,trespassers, track speed restrictions,speed restrictions through switches and curves or have a air hose to pop 4,990 feet from the headend.
Comparing model train operation to the real thing is like comparing a duck to a goose. No where close.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
dehusman Everytime Jeff gets paperwork for his train, there is a train summary (knicknamed a "BU") on his paperwork that shows the working schedule of the train, how far ahead or behind it is, plus all the scheduled set outs and pickups, loads, empties, tons, feet at each location along the trip.
Everytime Jeff gets paperwork for his train, there is a train summary (knicknamed a "BU") on his paperwork that shows the working schedule of the train, how far ahead or behind it is, plus all the scheduled set outs and pickups, loads, empties, tons, feet at each location along the trip.
You know it's not a good day when the 'BU' (It's part of the old computer command to get the train summary.) says you're figured to arrive at the other end of the run AFTER you're 12 hours working time are up. I've seen that a few times, but usually we make it in. And usually with plenty of time to spare.
Jeff
BRAKIEI'm sure the shippers/recievers is jumping for joy while wondering where their cars(s) are and when they will arrive.
Actually they do like it because that is exactly the question that all this answers.
If you just use the t-plan or the base plan, chances are any information on when the cars will get any place will be 100% wrong. For example if the plan is for a train to take 30 hours to run from Pittsburgh to Chicago. But because your railroad is screwed up its going to take an extra 24 hours of run time to get to Chicago. And because the yards are plugged its going to take and extra 24 hours to process through the yards. By having a working schedule and the ability to add those delays into the schedule, the actual train now shows taking 78 hours to run from Pittsburgh to Chicago. If the customer looked at when a car was going to get to Chicago based on the base schedule they would think it was going to get there in 30 hours (WRONG). If they look at a car and the working schedules are used they will see that the car will get there in 78 hours (more correct).
I don't see why you are fighting this so hard, the first computer scheduling systems have been around since the mid-late 1960's and car scheduling has been around since the early 1970's. Most railroads are on their 2nd-4th generation of software. The formative versions of this software was being written about the time the last steam engines were being removed from regular service.
Putting this in a model railroad perspective, its not really all that different from many model railroads.
When an owner sits down and figures out what trains he's is going to run, when and what they are going to carry, that making a T-Plan.
When an owner uses the plan he has made to make up job cards or line ups that he gives to a train that tells an operator when his train runs and what it is supposed to do, that's the base schedule.
When an operator compares his job card with the layout room clock or sequence list and says to himself, "Wow I'm running late, I'm not going to be able to get in before the next train is supposed to leave." he has essentially made a working schedule.
Its not as hard as you are making it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanThere are actually four "schedules" for every train. There is the base schedule, the t-plan, then every individual train gets a copy of that base schedule for itself, then there is the "working" schedule that reflects what the train is actually doing.
I'm sure the shippers/recievers is jumping for joy while wondering where their cars(s) are and when they will arrive.
That is one problem of "service scheduling" railroads is yet to overcome.
jeffhergertThe problem is thinking today's use of 'schedule' is the same as it was when there were time table schedules. Freight trains today have service schedules. Those that run daily or nearly so, will have planned times at the originating yard. For most trains, those aren't set in stone. If the train is ready earlier or later, the train may run earlier or later. Times downstream at locations where planned work will be done, estimates at best anyway, will be changed to reflect that day's train. 'Schedule' also refers to planned events.
Correct.
There are actually four "schedules" for every train. There is the base schedule, the t-plan, then every individual train gets a copy of that base schedule for itself, then there is the "working" schedule that reflects what the train is actually doing. Comparing the train's schedule to the working schedule indicates whether the train is ahead, on time or behind schedule. If the train is due out of Charlie at 315 pm and it departs at 250 pm its 25" AOT, if it departs at 315 pm its on time, if it departs at 345pm its 30" late. As delays and movements are reported, all the downline times in the working schedule are adjusted accordingly. If the train is delayed 20" at Charlie, then in the working schedule, all the downline arrivals and departures are adjusted by 30 minutes. If Jeff makes a good run and makes up 15" then all the times are advanced by 15".
For an "unscheduled" train (coal , grain, ore, rock, ethanol, oil, etc). There is a base schedule, but it generically starts at midnight. Then when an actual train is created, the computer starts the train's copy of the schedule at the time the train is going to run and then it works just like any other schedule. The train is ahead or late based on the schedule created for the train.
dehusmanAs I said in a previous post, ALL UP trains have a schedule (service schedule), even extras and trains in the "unscheduled" network (bulk trains). NO trains on the UP have a timetable schedule (haven't existed on the UP after about 1985).
Maybe on the U.P but,I know without a doubt terminal dwell time speaks loudly on every train being schuedled.24- 40 hours is a long time for loaded freight cars to be standing still.
Jeff's explaination of "service scheduling" makes sense.
Still there's the Federal mandated crew rest laws that must be followed and I suspect the lack of rested crews might come into play even with "service scheduling". .
BRAKIEJeff,First thanks for the explaining "service scheduling". My understanding was that applied to UPS and stack trains.
As I said in a previous post, ALL UP trains have a schedule (service schedule), even extras and trains in the "unscheduled" network (bulk trains). NO trains on the UP have a timetable schedule (haven't existed on the UP after about 1985).
The BNSF is roughly the same.
Jeff,First thanks for the explaining "service scheduling". My understanding was that applied to UPS and stack trains.
I still see hundreds of boxcars in use while watching rail cams..It good to see boxcars still have a place in today's railroads.
dehusman Just because the CSXT is poorly executing the plan doesn't mean there isn't a plan. Over my career there have been times when certain corridors have had over 100% recrew rate and there have been times when over a 380 mile crew run over some of the densest trafficed lines, over 95% of the crews made it within their hours of service, and most of those that didn't had mechanical problems or were blocked by trains with mechanical problems. Don't have any idea what they are doing now, but that wasn't the question, the question was about the 1940's and railroading was very different from now. Having a train die on the hours of service was a relatively rare event back then. Crew districts were shorter, trains were shorter and work took less time. Back then crew costs were one of the largest parts of operating costs (5 and 6 man crews) so the railroads minimized crew costs. Today fuel is more than crew costs on many runs.
Just because the CSXT is poorly executing the plan doesn't mean there isn't a plan. Over my career there have been times when certain corridors have had over 100% recrew rate and there have been times when over a 380 mile crew run over some of the densest trafficed lines, over 95% of the crews made it within their hours of service, and most of those that didn't had mechanical problems or were blocked by trains with mechanical problems.
Don't have any idea what they are doing now, but that wasn't the question, the question was about the 1940's and railroading was very different from now. Having a train die on the hours of service was a relatively rare event back then. Crew districts were shorter, trains were shorter and work took less time. Back then crew costs were one of the largest parts of operating costs (5 and 6 man crews) so the railroads minimized crew costs. Today fuel is more than crew costs on many runs.
And they had 16 hours to work instead of 12 hours.
BRAKIE Dave,I have went dead on the law before reaching my away or home terminal due to heavy switching and waiting on track time. I recall one time we made good time over the Cincinnati Div only to go dead at Limeville after waiting 4 hours for a inbound track at Russell to be cleared. I heard on my scanner where NS crews went DOL at Marion,Ohio or even here in Bucyrus. Sounds like you was in the office instead of train service.. To much can go wrong on the road things like emergencies,long waits in sidings, delays at idustries while a trucker moves his truck or a forklift operator moves scrap pallets and other items that's to close to the track for safe movement. I think today all that is moved by a schedule is UPS trains and that's only because UPS demands on time service. Let's face the truth those UPS trains has rights over Amtrak trains and any other train. A local or a sweeper has little or no priority. Other then that terminal dwell time can take up to 40 hours before a car continues it joureny. All of todays railroads is struggling with terminal dwell time and there is no exceptions. Now add the mandatory rest and there may not be any rested crews available for several hours. As far as being at your away terminal I have waited up to 16 hours before being called--there is no money(not sure about today) in riding a crew cab back to your home terminal. I was railroading for one reason..It was not because of my love for trains nope not at all,it was the paycheck.
Dave,I have went dead on the law before reaching my away or home terminal due to heavy switching and waiting on track time. I recall one time we made good time over the Cincinnati Div only to go dead at Limeville after waiting 4 hours for a inbound track at Russell to be cleared.
I heard on my scanner where NS crews went DOL at Marion,Ohio or even here in Bucyrus.
Sounds like you was in the office instead of train service.. To much can go wrong on the road things like emergencies,long waits in sidings, delays at idustries while a trucker moves his truck or a forklift operator moves scrap pallets and other items that's to close to the track for safe movement.
I think today all that is moved by a schedule is UPS trains and that's only because UPS demands on time service. Let's face the truth those UPS trains has rights over Amtrak trains and any other train. A local or a sweeper has little or no priority.
Other then that terminal dwell time can take up to 40 hours before a car continues it joureny. All of todays railroads is struggling with terminal dwell time and there is no exceptions.
Now add the mandatory rest and there may not be any rested crews available for several hours.
As far as being at your away terminal I have waited up to 16 hours before being called--there is no money(not sure about today) in riding a crew cab back to your home terminal.
I was railroading for one reason..It was not because of my love for trains nope not at all,it was the paycheck.
The problem is thinking today's use of 'schedule' is the same as it was when there were time table schedules. Freight trains today have service schedules. Those that run daily or nearly so, will have planned times at the originating yard. For most trains, those aren't set in stone. If the train is ready earlier or later, the train may run earlier or later. Times downstream at locations where planned work will be done, estimates at best anyway, will be changed to reflect that day's train.
'Schedule' also refers to planned events. In today's world, that may be more relevant than the time element. Not every train will work every intermediate yard in it's journey. Train MAG1 (M for manifest) originates at A and may work B and D on it's way to G. Train MAG2 also originates at A and goes to G, but it works C and E. Train MAG3, also A to G but isn't scheduled to do intermediate work, it's a train of cars for connections at G. Those three manifests are the day to day plan. It lets everyone concerned in planning which cars need to make which trains.
It also is possible to vary from the plan when things might go wrong. There are more cars at E than MAG2 can pick up. MAG3 has available capacity and might be called to pick up the overflow at E. Once in a while variations happen. When variations from the plan become the norm, it's time for a new plan.
dehusmancrew districts were shorter, trains were shorter and work took less time.
Dave,That is true but,you are overlooking the problems that faced the crews. Nothing has changed as far as over the road problems. Inferior trains waited on prioritory trains,water stops had to be made,in some areas helpers added and removed, road emergencies still happen.
Railroads still had to deal with terminal dwell times along with transfer times and choke points like Chicago,St.Louis,KC where it could take several days for cars to move around to their proper interchange.
Even in the 40s the railroads wasn't the fastest mode of transportation because it could take a car weeks to get from point A on the NKP to point B on the U.P.
John Kneiling The Professional Inconoclast covered the issues of railroads in his column in Trains Magazine.
Why would a railroad worry about a schedule or T-plan?
First, the yards need to know which train to put the cars on. Not every train goes to the same place, not every train works at the same location, not every train carries the same cars. The yards building the trains need to know the right trains to put the cars on and when to have the trains ready. The yard needs to build the trains right before they are going to depart. If the yard only has 4 departure tracks and build the trains that depart at 9pm, 10pm, 11pm and 1145pm at 6am in the morning, their yard will be full all day and they won't have room to build the trains that run before 9pm.
The crews and the dispatcher needs to know what the train is going to do. Having the trains do the same thing every day means the crews and the dispatcher have better chance of doing things right more often. The train will be on the right track to do its work, the dispatcher may be able to get non-workers around workers, the crew will know what they are picking up.
Second is that real railroads have to worry about resources (crews, engines, cabooses/EOT's). Through freight crews are based out of one terminal and run to another terminal, get their rest and come back. Typically that away from home terminal doesn't have an extra board, so the dispatch office and crew callers need to know how many trains they will have coming to make sure they have enough crews at the terminals, particularly the away from home terminal. It takes 8-12 hours for a train to run from the home terminal to the away terminal, then 8-10 hours to rest the crew, so the people planning crews are working 16-22 hours out at the earliest. On the flip side the crews get penalty payments if they aren't used within 16 hours of being rested at the away terminal, so the railroad can't afford to hold them away for too long. And there is a fixed number of crews. If you keep too many at the away terminal you won't have enough rested at home to protect those trains. Huge balancing act.
With power and cabooses/EOT's, there is a turn time too to fuel and service the engines. The locomotive group and mechanical department have to know how many engines and whern they are coming to figure out which power to use on which train.
Those are just some of the reasons the railroads have schedules and track what trains do and how long it takes to get over the road. At some point or another in my career I've had to be in charge of managing all of those aspects on a real railroad. Most of that is not done real time during an op session, but it all goes into how the layout owner sets up his operations. Deciding which train carries the set out for the junction isn't something the switch crew decides during an op session, but it is something the owner has to set up.
1912 was the earliest freight schedule book I 've seen, but they are still in use by railroads today, although computerized and not a paper volume. The modern schedules have all the same things the 1912 does plus many more details (block names, cut off times, power requirements, schedule details like fueling and crew change points, etc.) Often times a modern schedule is called a "transportation plan" or "t-plan".
Being a regular train or an extra from an ETT perspective really has nothing to do with it. Most through freights do NOT switch industries, labor agreements assign industry work to local crews and are paid a different pay rate.
My comments are based on 37 years with the MP and UP, working with former WP, MKT, CNW, SP, SSW areas and coordinating operations with the BN/ATSF/BNSF, IC/ICG/CN, CSXT, NS and other roads. All railroads had these schedules, the modern ones with the more sophisticated computer systems had the more sophisticated t-plans. The SP and BNSF t-plans were more involved than the MKT t-plans.
Dave,That was in 1912 and ETT time was needed for meets...
Today's terminal dwell time can be up to 40 hours and all freight trains are ran as extras. Switching cars on the main is normal every day railroading. That's how you serve industries along the main line.
What I replied was based on my 6 years with Chessie(C&O).
BRAKIEWhat is this freight schedule you speak of?
Its not a new concept.
Real railroads have schedules for through freights (technically for every train, but that's a different story). They say when the train is supposed to start, when its arrives and leaves intermediate points, what cars it carries, what connections it makes and may have other pertinent information.
As an example, here is an excerpt from a 1912 Philadelphia & Reading Railroad freight train schedule manual. The concept is over 100 years old. All railroads had them.
There are two trains shown. The "symbol" PN3 is what the railroad calls the train as far as the work to be done. This schedule is not the same as a timetable schedule, it conveys no authority to operate on the main track. It just tells everybody (primarily yardmasters and managers) what the train is supposed to do. The PN3 and PV1 both originate in Philadelphia (P) but one is out of Pt Richmond and the other Broad St. It includes the train size. The "character" is a general description. Then there is a schedule of when it is supposed to arrive and leave and what trains (if any) its is supposed to connect with.
The PV1 train is doing EXACTLY what the OP is asking about. Note in the character the train is traveling from Broad St. to Pottsville and setting out blocks of cars for several branches. I model the W&N branch. Note the train is setting out at Birdsboro and in Note 2 it saying that its carrying cars from the WNRR (my branch) that go to points north. That is EXACTLY the type of operation the question was about. Note also the train is allowed 10-20 minutes at each station to do set outs and pick ups. The railroad is not intending for trains to spend hours switching and reswitching its trains. The schedule allows about 3 hours to go about 60 miles, so the average train speed is about 20 mph, which is about a normal average train speed (not to be confused with max train speed, average includes stops for meets, speed restrictions, work on line, etc).
You can find these types of schedules on many railroad historical society sites and some have been reprinted. When I worked for a real railroad we had the same thing for our trains (only on steriods and computerized).
dehusmanWork done by a through freight is work being done on a schedule, typically off the main track. Its generally not helpful to have a through freight blocking the main reswitching and eating up time on the schedule.
That's why we used a yard to reblock our train.. We was clear of the main and had lots of room to do our work.
What is this freight schedule you speak of? When you have enough switching to do there is no schedule. In fact you will spend a lot of time in a siding waiting on clearance before you can do the required switching.
And never forget the number of safety and operation rules that must be followed and that will require extra time during those switching moves..
A railroad would design the operating plan that has to be executed on a regular basis so that a train wouldn't have to reswitch its train at an ad hoc location to fix a regular pick up. It would create a plan where once the train picks up it doesn't have to double handle the cars.
Work done by a through freight is work being done on a schedule, typically off the main track. Its generally not helpful to have a through freight blocking the main reswitching and eating up time on the schedule.
In a previous life, every morning I had to explain through freight train delays to the district general manager and having to stop and reswitch a pick up was not an acceptable reason to delay a through freight.
Espee Oregon BranchesAre the setouts for the local yard always behind the locomotive and the pickups always tacked in before the caboose?
The conductors I worked with would place those pickups behind the engine instead of pulling (say) 90-100 cars just to pace the setouts in front of the caboose.The first setout would be behind the engines.
But,wouldn't your train become unworkable as you drop and pickup cars?
Absolutely! But,you can rearrange your train at a yard in a small city where you have room to work and having that room means less moves.
Remember there is no profit in moving cars you don't need to. You would set the previous pickups on one track pull your train ahead to the last cars to be setout and place those cars you already picked up in front of your through cars and your train is workable again.
A long road local would do the same.
As a old line PRR conductor told me when I was a student brakeman:Son, plan your work and work your plan,don't move cars you don't need to and above all never get your cabin in front of your face.
Getting your cabin in front of your face means don't make stupid moves..
Espee Oregon BranchesI'm modeling a junction yard on a Southern Pacific mainline in the 1940's and I'm sketching out my yard operating scheme. Based on the tonnage I want my manifest trains to have, I'm wondering what they will look like in my junction yard when making their stops.
It depends somewhat on what the rest of the manifest train looks like. What other blocks are on the train?
Generally the blocks will be in order on a train in the order they will be set out. Pick ups will generally be in block. The place a block sets out may not have anything to do with where the cars themselves actually go.
However things may be different if at train sets out and picks up multiple blocks.The following train, No 101, runs from East to West:Eng-AAA-BBB-CCC-DDD-Cab
The following train, No 203, runs from South to North:Eng-bbb-aaa-ddd-ccc-Cab
Both lines cross at Junction. At Junction No 101 sets out BBB-CCC and picks up aaa-ddd, leaving Junction:Eng-AAA-aaa-ddd-DDD-Cab
At Junction No 203 sets out aaa-ddd and picks up BBB-CCC, leaving Junction:Eng-bbb-BBB-CCC-ccc-Cab
By making a set out and pick up in the middle of the train, a railroad can have 2 blocks fall into place with one move. In your specific case this really doesn't matter, except on the pick up. What matters there is what is the rest of the train blocked like. In most cases what is being picked up is a generic block of everything off the branch, maybe everything going in the same direction as the train (maybe not), that is carried to the next major yard to be switched. So depend on where that switch block is located in the train will determine where the manifest train pickes it up.
If its a train that does a lot of work over its run, maybe it sets out and picks up at 4 locations. Maybe it only sets out and picks up (on line) at your junction. If it sets out and picks up at 4 locations then chances are it will set out off the head end and pick up on the rear (most likely location for the block for the next big switch yard). On the other hand if it just sets out and picks up at your junction, then it will probably set out and pick up on the head end because the rest of the train will go to the next switch yard.
Espee Oregon BranchesHow is the thru-train blocked in this scenario? Are the setouts for the local yard always behind the locomotive and the pickups always tacked in before the caboose? I've yet to hear/read anyone specificy that
I don't know if it's prototypical, but that is exactly what I do on my layout. Had some actual pro railroaders up for an Ops session and they never said a word.
Terry
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
Through freights would (normally, one can probably always find exceptions) be blocked in station order, too. A through freight that had a block for an intermediate yard would have it behind the engine. Upon arrival at the yard, they would make the set out. Then the engine would go over to the track the pick up was on, placing it behind the engine.
On some railroads if a set out required holding onto cars that were going through, the working agreements called for an arbitrary payment (like an extra hour's pay, etc.) to be paid to the crew. That doesn't mean that it wasn't done. Just something that a railroad might try to avoid.
The same procedure still holds true today. Although with some of the larger manifests today, rear end pick ups and set outs are being done. Of course it's easier to move an EOT device than a caboose.
I was going to post another train blocking question to a new topic but realized that this thread was pretty close. Please pardon me for hijacking a month-old thread.
How is the thru-train blocked in this scenario? Are the setouts for the local yard always behind the locomotive and the pickups always tacked in before the caboose? I've yet to hear/read anyone specificy that.
I'm modeling a junction yard on a Southern Pacific mainline in the 1940's and I'm sketching out my yard operating scheme. Based on the tonnage I want my manifest trains to have, I'm wondering what they will look like in my junction yard when making their stops.
Thanks, and happy rails to you...
zugmannThe old heads could whine with the best of 'em!
The ones I worked whined about muleheaded yardmasters, trainmasters and usless dispatchers..
Like an old-school trainmaster once said to me "If you guys ain't complaining(sic), you must be sick!"
The old heads could whine with the best of 'em!
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannConductor is getting paid; he can cry about it later.
Those old line conductors I worked with was set in their ways and they would do what they thought was proper to get the work done. Those old buzzards wouldn't cry since they got paid for doing their job and as foreman they would get that job done..
The old head conductors that was now yardmasters and trainmaster knew those conductors was in the right.
Back then there wasn't any college kids with no boots on the ground experience running the show. It was hard back then for experienced young brakeman to please some old those old line muleheaded conductors...
BRAKIECherry picking your setout(s) from your train at the industry would require unneeded work and extra moves. No conductor would stand for that.
It sometimes happens. Train isn't always set up great, or crews are short. YOu can mess with it at the yard, or there's times you have to take it out as is and figure it out later.
Conductor is getting paid; he can cry about it later.
dehusmanPlus doing a lot of detail switching in the yard takes time, switch engine time and yard lead time. If the local is originating out of a major yard, there will be less detail switching because the yardmaster won't want the local crew tying up the lead to reblock his 20 car train when the yardmaster has to process 2400 cars a day through the yard. The yard master will let the switch engine get the cars out of his yard to some intermediate point and figure it out there where the local isn't in the way.
I don't know about today but,both PRR and Chessie(C&O) had a smaller local traffic yard where locals was build in station order. If it wasn't every conductor I worked with would put his train in industry order since there's a lot of work involved with each setout and pickup with safety and operating rules to be followed.
As a example every pickup had to be coupled,handbrake released, bleeder valve checked and wheels checked for any forgotten wheel chocks.
Safety rules applied like unlocking the industry switch,checking the points and if he rules stated you relocked the switch or at least replaced the lock in the locking device. Other safety action was to set at least two-three handbrakes on your standing train closed the air valve then uncouple your car(s) to be setout..
As far as short lines they to will put their train in industry order unless their train is shorter then five cars although I seen one short line crew put their three car train in order.
Cherry picking your setout(s) from your train at the industry would require unneeded work and extra moves. No conductor would stand for that.