If what Larry says is true, the title of this topic is false and needs to be updated to reflect reality rather than some misleading romanticized fable.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
PRR8259The question that has always intrigued me is this: Once the brakes were applied, could not Casey have also jumped like the fireman? Was it necessary for somebody to physically be there to hold the throttle lever, or could he have saved himself with a jump, too, and still saved the passengers????
John,Ever think it was to late for him to jump? Again the torpedos was there as was the flag,his orders stated he was to meet trains at Vaughn and he disreguarded his orders and sped into those trains like a drunk driver into a line of cars. Did Casey tell Sim to jump that night? We will never know the truth.
Not a hero like folklore has made him. Casey was found fully responsible for the wreck. Had Casey obeyed his orders he would have slowed before reaching Vaughn and the wreck would have been avoided.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
We are so many years later. How about this:
How many of us habitually leave a few minutes late for work or other things, and try to "make time" (that is a railroading term) on the highway?
How many of us take the posted speed limit as merely a "guideline" and add 10 mph (or more) all the time on the highway?
I see very aggressive drivers each day on the highway.
Given the circumstances Casey Jones had on that day, I can see myself doing the very same thing: running fast to make time for my employer, possibly missing the torpedos (if they were there) or missing a signal (if it had been there) due to fatigue.
The question that has always intrigued me is this: Once the brakes were applied, could not Casey have also jumped like the fireman? Was it necessary for somebody to physically be there to hold the throttle lever, or could he have saved himself with a jump, too, and still saved the passengers????
In any event, I view him as a hero for allowing, as a minimum, the fireman to live to ripe old age. Casey saved some lives that day, and that's good enough for me.
Many of our American war heros were not actually the most perfect of characters either (I'm thinking of the real WWII fighter pilot Gregory "Pappy" Boyington) but they did an amazing job when the situation demanded it, and deserve to be remembered as heros. In Boyington's case, besides being an amazing pilot himself, he is credited with revolutionizing American fighter tactics in the South Pacific. He said "show me a hero and I'll show you a bum" and "I'm an expert on marriage. I've had several (5). I can tell you what not to do!"
As a kid I got to meet Pappy Boyington at the air show in Montoursville, PA, one time. Glad I did.
So for me, I'll remember those guys as heros, regardless of any historical revisionism. They did enough. My hat is off to them.
John
Angelo.... I'm still not too old for a good cartoon, especially when it's a good one.
Thanks for that.... I liked it!
Track Fiddler
I found a video that Disney made. I don't know if this what Mike was thinking of, but I do remember this.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UbTBk4pDIHA
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
Missed this thread first time around.
Railroad men died by the hundreds back then
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Triggered from the Caboose thread and the Caboose up in the air in Jackson Tennessee
TF
Guys,The only known picture of Casey is in the cab of his beloved 2-8-0 #638 his assigned freight engine while he worked the freight pool.
Some pictures on the wall that day
This is my favorite
The crew
Thanks Stix
I wish I had the April 2000 trains magazine. I have the April 2000 Model Railroader magazine but that doesn't quite cut it, does it? Recently I have a subscription to trains magazine.
I just want to give a thank you to everyone that posted. I learned a lot from you on this thread from your posts.
I am the type of person that just wants to grab a little more knowledge every day all the way until the time I can't grab anymore.
Thanks Track Fiddler
Probably the best place to learn more about the true story is to pick up the April 2000 Trains magazine, whose cover story was on the 100th anniversary of the wreck that killed Jones.
There may some confusion re TV shows. There was a nationally syndicated "Casey Jones" western series in the 1950's, starring Alan Hale Jr. In the 1960's - early 70's there was a local "Lunch with Casey" kid's show here in Minneapolis-St.Paul area.
It's interesting to me that the wreck in 1900 probably wouldn't have happened 10 years earlier or 10 years later. Several trains were trying to clear the main for Casey's train, but one was stuck with several cars not in the clear due to a problem with an airbrake - technology that wasn't around a few years before. Had the incident happend 10 or so years later, there probably would have been electric light signals warning Casey to slow down and eventually to stop clear of the trouble. Of course, he had been running trains for something like 14 hours at that point, so might not have seen the signals anyway.
Interesting (to me anyway) that the two most famous U.S. Caseys - Jones and Stengel (Hall of Fame baseball manager) - weren't really named Casey. The engineer was John Luther Jones. Since John Jones was so common a name, he was nicknamed for his hometown of Cayce, Kentucky. Similarly, Charles Dillon Stengel got his nickname for bragging to his teammates how much better things were in "K.C." - his hometown of Kansas City.
jeffhergertBrakie, torpedoes are (or were-we don't have them anymore) used to get the attention of the engine crew. To get them to reduce speed and look for a flagman, or other stop signal, ahead for a prescribed distance. If the flagman is out beyond the torpedoes, it's very possible to miss him. The fireman could be attending the fire, the engineer could be reading his orders.
Jeff,Indeed the torpedos are or rather was a warning device..Casey could have missed Newberry's flag for another reason that should be discussed..
Was Casey asleep and woke up after the topedo went off? After all he had doubled out with little or no rest.
On the Chessie I was called with 4 hours rest and nodded off while riding in the cupola and nothing was said by the conductor.
For the record if I was at home instad at my away terminal I would have marked off that run due to lack of rest.
dehusman jeffhergert From the accounts I've read, Casey Jones was making up time as allowed by his run-late orders. Technically a "run late" order doesn't allow you to make up time, it actually does the opposite it forces a train to remain late. If there was a "run late" order, then the opposing trains would have had a copy and would have expected him later than his scheduled time. If he was running ahead of the run late order then that was a clear rules violation and would have contributed to the problem. Techinically the flagman wouldn't have had to have protection out until just before the departure time at the previous station, if he was running ahead of the run late order then that mitigates the flagman's responsibility somewhat. That he had orders to meet trains at Vaughn, but being the superior train probably expected them to either be in the clear or properly protected. To me, the debate is whether proper protection was provided. Newberry being out beyond his "guns" to me says it wasn't. Agreed, from what I read, short flagging was an issue.
jeffhergert From the accounts I've read, Casey Jones was making up time as allowed by his run-late orders.
Technically a "run late" order doesn't allow you to make up time, it actually does the opposite it forces a train to remain late. If there was a "run late" order, then the opposing trains would have had a copy and would have expected him later than his scheduled time. If he was running ahead of the run late order then that was a clear rules violation and would have contributed to the problem. Techinically the flagman wouldn't have had to have protection out until just before the departure time at the previous station, if he was running ahead of the run late order then that mitigates the flagman's responsibility somewhat.
That he had orders to meet trains at Vaughn, but being the superior train probably expected them to either be in the clear or properly protected. To me, the debate is whether proper protection was provided. Newberry being out beyond his "guns" to me says it wasn't.
Agreed, from what I read, short flagging was an issue.
One account has the "late" time in the run-late order decreasing in segments over his run. In this account, his fireman said they would've been back on their time table schedule somewhere south of Vaughn.
Brakie, torpedoes are (or were-we don't have them anymore) used to get the attention of the engine crew. To get them to reduce speed and look for a flagman, or other stop signal, ahead for a prescribed distance. If the flagman is out beyond the torpedoes, it's very possible to miss him. The fireman could be attending the fire, the engineer could be reading his orders.
Is it surprising the flagman was cleared? As the one account put it, "Engineer Jones was not able to give his interpretations of signals that night."
The two accounts I'm most familiar with are in "A Treasury of Railroad Folklore." It's collected stories on a variety of railroad subjects published originally in the 1950s. I recommend it to anyone interested in railroad history and folklore.
Jeff
I'm finding this discussion and debate interesting. I'm glad to be learning more about things than I did.
We had drove from Graceland to the museum that day. When we arrived to the Museum it was going to be closing in another 45 minutes. Unfortunately we didn't have the time to take the care to read everything like we wanted to.
Thanks for somewhat continuing my visit to this place TF
dehusmanAgreed, from what I read, short flagging was an issue.
According to Sim Webb the torpidos went off and Casey started to slow but,not enough.
Again Newberry was found innocent of any negligence.
Folklore has blamed Newberry not the IC RR.
jeffhergertFrom the accounts I've read, Casey Jones was making up time as allowed by his run-late orders.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
As with many accidents there were multiple failures. Jones was probably speeding, he was probably "short flagged". Since there was no NTSB at the time, there was no independent investigative body. The easiest course was to blame it on the dead guy.
Having multiple train meets that involved a saw-by was not uncommon in that day.
mbinsewiSomebody posted a video in here.
Found it, it was posted by Ken (cudaken), in the diner, 12-28-2018. I thought it was interesting, especially what remains of the memorial sign that was erected.
I don'tknow how to link to it. too complicated to link previous threads, etc., on this forum. Too many hoops to jump through.
Mike.
My You Tube
jeffhergertTo me, the debate is whether proper protection was provided. Newberry being out beyond his "guns" to me says it wasn't.
Casey had been warned about those trains ar Vaugh and failed to take precautions before arriving at Vaughn nor did he heed Newberry's Torpidos and flag.
Newberry was found innocent of any negligence. Casey was held fully accountable for the wreck at Vaughn.
Being a former railroader I can't help but wonder if fatique played a part since Casey had doubled out with little or no rest between runs.
But,there is Casey's record of voilations and suspenions that can not be overlooked.
Thanks for all the participation here so far.
There are positive and negative points to any discussion. They are all important aspects. You need the bad with the good to make a conversation interesting.
Casey's home surroundings.
The Parlor I think.
The living room
The Hall
The kitchen Notice the coal to cook
The bedroom.................. the latrine shown on request
Talk to you guys tomorrow ....I'm gonna hit the rack. TF
drgwcs Went through that museum quite a long time ago. There has been a lot of discussion of this through the years, the freight was too long for the siding and was doing a saw by. The official report said that Jones failed to see the flagman and fusees but the fireman always maintained that there were no flagman or fusees. As for speed Jones had the official right of way- a lot of times the engineers were penalized more for being late than breaking the rules. That could be fatal however. I live in Danville VA- home of the wreck of the old 97. There speed was a great factor as well. The train was an hour late when it left Monroe and was supposed to make up time. The railroad was penalized for every minute the mail was late. When they hit the trestle in Danville the engeneer was going too fast for the curve. Of course in the end the engineer was given the blame and the railroad denied telling him to make up the time. It is hard to tell what really happened in either case. Jim
Went through that museum quite a long time ago. There has been a lot of discussion of this through the years, the freight was too long for the siding and was doing a saw by. The official report said that Jones failed to see the flagman and fusees but the fireman always maintained that there were no flagman or fusees. As for speed Jones had the official right of way- a lot of times the engineers were penalized more for being late than breaking the rules. That could be fatal however. I live in Danville VA- home of the wreck of the old 97. There speed was a great factor as well. The train was an hour late when it left Monroe and was supposed to make up time. The railroad was penalized for every minute the mail was late. When they hit the trestle in Danville the engeneer was going too fast for the curve. Of course in the end the engineer was given the blame and the railroad denied telling him to make up the time. It is hard to tell what really happened in either case. Jim
[/quote]
There were two freight trains on the siding, The combined length too long for the siding. The freights had to "saw" north to allow two sections of a northbound passenger train to reach a house track to clear the main. While in the north saw position an air hose burst on one of the freight trains. The diagrams I've seen show the flagman was out beyond his torpedoes. It's been debated that the torpedoes may have been placed when the freights were in the south saw position. The torpedoes are a signal to get the engine crews' attention. Being out beyond them it is very plausible they missed seeing the flagmen.
From the accounts I've read, Casey Jones was making up time as allowed by his run-late orders. That he had orders to meet trains at Vaughn, but being the superior train probably expected them to either be in the clear or properly protected. To me, the debate is whether proper protection was provided. Newberry being out beyond his "guns" to me says it wasn't.
I don't think he was operating in a recklass manner. He was operating in a manner expected of railroad crews at that time.
Guys,For the record #382 was not Casey's engine.
Casey's assigned engine was #384.
Casey doubled out on the 382 on his fatal run after completing his regular run..
Its sad how things get twisted over the years due to myths and folklore.
Irrespective of the speed and caution issues, Casey Jones was a hero when he told his fireman to jump free of the engine. That fireman lived a long life, passing away in the 1950s. That another man was given life while he sacrificed his own is sufficient for me to regard him as a hero.
Cedarwoodron
Robert.... Thanks for your reply.
Milk and cookies with Mrs Jones in the parlor when the house was still in town and short walks conversing railroad stories down to the tracks as she was getting older.
Your story made me smile and I do believe it..... Nobody comes up with stories like that if it didn't really happen. Especially at our age.
Jim.... Thanks for your reply as well.
Schedules to keep back then instead of Safety First is what you basically said in a nutshell. And the mail had to be delivered on time. Engineers were pushed hard to keep schedules back then and docked every hour they were late.
One must remember there are two sides to every story. Sometimes too eager to jump the gun.
Sometimes the need to just relax and listen to everything there is to be said before making a determination is important.
It seems Casey Jones has two sides to the story here
Somebody posted a video in here. I think it was MLC, and I thought it was in Diner.
I'll have to look.
Mike
Track Fiddler ... Thanks for starting this thread. We visited the Casey Jones Museum last August, and it was very worthwhile. .... Jackson, TN in its day, was a busy railroad town.
Robert ... Thanks for sharing your memories. I liked reading them.
Below are some of the photos of our visit to the Casey Jones Museum. They had a locomotive lettered as if it was Casey's locomotive. The engine was actually a Clinchfield RR locomotve. The GM&O sleeper was not Casey's railroad, but GM&O was big in Jackson with its locomotive shops there. The funeral coach was the same one used for Casey's funeral.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Okay this is good, ...I have some closure here.
Isn't it funny, my whole life since I was a little boy sitting on the living room floor eating waffles watching crazy Casey Jones coming out in his winter underwear (that should have been my first clue) and seeing his sidekick Roundhouse.... that should have been my second clue. I always thought he was a Railroad hero all these years.
I have to admit I sensed some doubt in the museum in Tennessee. I knew he was going to fast to be safe but I didn't want to believe it. I am somewhat let down here.
Sure glad I got this childhood hero clarified. Don't know how I missed that one
I might as well post the rest of the pictures of the tour.... I did drive two hours to get there
PS. And the funny thing is one of the forum members here suggested this Museum in Jackson
Track fiddlerWho drives 200,000 Tons of steel down the tracks through caution zones like a wild......... rabid wildebeest if you will
Well, there was a guy just within the past year or two who did exactly that. They still haven't found the exact cause or what to charge him with, other than he was in charge when the train reached its tipping point.