wjstixBTW, although he had a number of violations, not clear if any were actually for speeding.
No,but he did get 10 days suspension for not regcognizing the flagman protecting a work train. Casey got 30 days for gross carelessness of handling orders at Jackson,Tenn.
Seems Casey's disregard for orders and flagman caught up with him at Vaughn.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
zugmann BRAKIE Casey was found under the cab not in the cab with a hand on the brake and the other on the whistle cord as folklure claims. I thought that was from the wreck of ol' 97?
BRAKIE Casey was found under the cab not in the cab with a hand on the brake and the other on the whistle cord as folklure claims.
I thought that was from the wreck of ol' 97?
Some of the popular legends has Casey still in the cab still holding the whistle cord and brakes. The truth states they found Casey under the cab.
PRR8259The question that has always intrigued me is this: Once the brakes were applied, could not Casey have also jumped like the fireman?
One thought that occured to me is that, according to reports, the torpedos were set about 3000 ft. from the caboose of the train ahead of Jones, and the train hit the torpedos going about 75 MPH. That means that he had to recognize what the torpedos meant, apply the brakes, put the engine in reverse (which most reports say he did), tell Sim Webb to jump, and blow the whistle to warn the crewmen ahead - all in less 30 seconds. He may just have run out of time.
BTW, although he had a number of violations, not clear if any were actually for speeding.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080314111126/http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/wreck.htm
gmpullmanJones was born near Cayce, Kentucky, where he acquired the nickname of "Cayce", which he chose to spell as "Casey".
A common version of the story is that "John Jones" was such a common name that other railroaders nicknamed him "Casey" (based on his hometown) to separate him from the other IC men with the same name.
"Casey" of course was/is a fairly common men's first name particularly in Celtic (Irish, Welsh etc.) families.
FWIW, Casey Stengel, the Hall of Fame baseball manager, also was not born as a Casey. Charles Stengel got the nickname early in his baseball career, due his constantly complaining that things in New York or Chicago were OK, but they weren't as good as things back home in "K.C.", Kansas City.
BRAKIECasey was found under the cab not in the cab with a hand on the brake and the other on the whistle cord as folklure claims.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Ed,Yet,we know Webb jumped and survived.
From more investigation of this wreck.
We also know the mail clerk was hurt and passengers recieved bumps and bruises as well as shock.
Casey was found under the cab not in the cab with a hand on the brake and the other on the whistle cord as folklure claims.
Wikipedia has some information. Still there's a great deal that will never be known.
This article says impact speed was estimated to be 35 MPH. Anyone jumping at that speed doesn't have much of a chance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Jones
The hours of rest are unclear:
There is disagreement over the circumstances prior to Casey Jones's fatal last run. In the account given in the book Railroad Avenue by Freeman H. Hubbard, which was based on an interview with fireman Sim Webb, he and Casey had been used extra on trains 3 and 2 to cover for engineer Sam Tate, who had marked off ill. They returned to Memphis at 6:25 on the morning of April 29, giving them adequate time to be rested for number 1 that night, which was their regular assigned run.
The Fred J. Lee biography Casey Jones contended the men arrived in Memphis on No. 4 at 9 o'clock on the evening of April 29. They were asked to turn right around and take number 1 back to Canton to fill in for Sam Tate, who had marked off. This would have given them little time to rest, as Number 1 was due out at 11:35 pm. In both of these accounts, Jones's regular run was trains 1 and 4.
In a third account, trains 3 and 2 were Casey and Sim Webb's regular run, and they were asked to fill in for Sam Tate that night on No. 1, having arrived that morning on No. 2.
Interesting reading, none the less.
Jones was born near Cayce, Kentucky, where he acquired the nickname of "Cayce", which he chose to spell as "Casey".
Ironically, the Cayce (Ky.) where Jones was born is the same spelling as Cayce, S.C. where the February, 2018, Amtrak Silver Star wreck occurred.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/RRD18MR003.aspx
Cheers, Ed
Depends on whether we are talking about setting the brakes or things he could do before the crash.
As far as brakes go, its a valve, once he puts it in emeregency, he has applied all the brakes he can. "Pulling harder" doesn't do anything.
Things he can do on the way to the crash include ringing the bell and blowing the whistle. If he decided that he wanted to try and warn the other trains of the impending crash, he could have rung the bell (manual action) or blown the whistle (manual action).
My guess is he was trying to warn the other trains and so rode it out blowing the whistle and ringing the bell.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanThose cars not equipped with air brakes can't be controlled from the cab in any case.
...and I'm not sure it's known how many - if any - of the cars in Casey's train had airbrakes. If none, or few, there wouldn't have been time to signal the brakemen to apply brakes to the cars. It would have just been the engine brake (which probably was human power more than anything at that time) and hope. As I mentioned, most reports of the crash going back to the time stated that Casey staying with the engine allowed the train to slow enough that the crew in the caboose could get clear, so no one else was hurt. I'd have to assume from that, that if Casey could have just thrown a valve in the cab and wouldn't have needed to do anything else, he would have jumped. Seems unlikely an experienced engineer would be paralyzed with fear, but no one knows for sure now.
Track fiddler I would imagine after re-thinking things, you would have to pull that brake lever as hard as you could the whole time.
No. Its a valve. Once you put the valve in the emergency position you are committed. There is only one emergency position. You can't put on emergency "harder". Unless you release the brakes and recharge them the air brakes are going to be applying their maximum braking power. Those cars not equipped with air brakes can't be controlled from the cab in any case.
Track fiddler wjstix Track fiddler Maybe Casey was just too tired and lethargic to think quick enough to jump out seconds before disaster. The story generally put forth was that by staying in the cab, Casey slowed the train down much more than would have happened if he had jumped. I don't know enough about braking in 1900 to know if he had to manually hold the brake hard on to stop the train, or if it were possible (as on a modern engine) to have just set the airbrake on the cars and the engine and they would just stay on. Remember too that in 1900 not all engines and cars were equipped with airbrakes. You're probably right Stix. I have a 69 that doesn't have power anyting. That machine's a lot newer than a 1900's steam locomotive. I would imagine after re-thinking things, you would have to pull that brake lever as hard as you could the whole time. TF
wjstix Track fiddler Maybe Casey was just too tired and lethargic to think quick enough to jump out seconds before disaster. The story generally put forth was that by staying in the cab, Casey slowed the train down much more than would have happened if he had jumped. I don't know enough about braking in 1900 to know if he had to manually hold the brake hard on to stop the train, or if it were possible (as on a modern engine) to have just set the airbrake on the cars and the engine and they would just stay on. Remember too that in 1900 not all engines and cars were equipped with airbrakes.
Track fiddler Maybe Casey was just too tired and lethargic to think quick enough to jump out seconds before disaster.
The story generally put forth was that by staying in the cab, Casey slowed the train down much more than would have happened if he had jumped. I don't know enough about braking in 1900 to know if he had to manually hold the brake hard on to stop the train, or if it were possible (as on a modern engine) to have just set the airbrake on the cars and the engine and they would just stay on. Remember too that in 1900 not all engines and cars were equipped with airbrakes.
You're probably right Stix. I have a 69 that doesn't have power anyting. That machine's a lot newer than a 1900's steam locomotive. I would imagine after re-thinking things, you would have to pull that brake lever as hard as you could the whole time.
TF
I can't see that..That would need to be done every time a train stopped. I think you would set the engine and train brakes while closing the throttle.Recall there was airbrakes in use in 1900.
It may have been to late for Casey to jump or he was caught short of jumping before the collision. He could have frozen from fear. We will never know.
Water Level Route BRAKIE Jeff,The fact still remains Newberry was found blameless by the IC.. Only folklore blames him not the findings of the investigation. Of course Newberry could have be made the scapegoat for the wreck but,in the end Casey was held responsible by the IC. Doesn't surprise me. If it was a management system issue, it's easy to blame it on the dead guy. How is he going to argue back possibly pointing the blame their way? Nobody else gets in trouble. No lawsuits. It's swept under the rug and they can go back to operating like normal...until the next incident. Wash, rinse, repeat.
BRAKIE Jeff,The fact still remains Newberry was found blameless by the IC.. Only folklore blames him not the findings of the investigation. Of course Newberry could have be made the scapegoat for the wreck but,in the end Casey was held responsible by the IC.
Jeff,The fact still remains Newberry was found blameless by the IC.. Only folklore blames him not the findings of the investigation.
Of course Newberry could have be made the scapegoat for the wreck but,in the end Casey was held responsible by the IC.
Doesn't surprise me. If it was a management system issue, it's easy to blame it on the dead guy. How is he going to argue back possibly pointing the blame their way? Nobody else gets in trouble. No lawsuits. It's swept under the rug and they can go back to operating like normal...until the next incident. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Mike,The testimony of the other freight crews put Newberry where he was at.. Mr.Webb wasn't quite sure because he could not see out of the right side of the cab. He did hear the torpedios the same time Casey did and Casey started applying the brakes and yelling for Webb to jump-if true. Recall Webb saw the caboose first as they round the curve so, he may have already been on his way to "joining the birds". Of course we will never know what actually happen that fatal night.
This is known.
Had Jones slowed before meeting those train at Vaughn the wreck would have been avoided.
Track fiddlerMaybe Casey was just too tired and lethargic to think quick enough to jump out seconds before disaster.
Mike
Vaughn MS is at the end of an 'S' curve going south, the last curve being to the left. There are accounts attributed to Simm Webb where he did and didn't hear torpedoes being detonated. I believe the ones where he, and Casey, did hear them. Because the curve was to the left, Simm was able to see the markers on the caboose hanging out on the main before Casey could after hitting the torpedoes.
I still say that Newberry was not properly flagging. The torpedoes were probably to protect the south switch. Newberry was out beyond his torpedoes, with a lantern to protect the rear of the train hanging out. The purpose of torpedoes is to get the attention of the engine crew. (Torpedoes are no longer used, at least by the GCOR governed railroads. The rule covering them has been gone for a couple of editions. The flagging rule remains, but other rules and practices have made it obsolete. Without torpedoes, it is almost impossible to properly flag a train in some circumstances.) Being the superior train, even with orders or message to have to 'saw' through Vaughn, they had rights to the south switch, expecting the main track to be clear or properly protected. If Newberry was intending to place more torpedoes, but felt he hadn't yet reached the point to do so (doubtful IMO), he should've placed a couple more as soon as he realized a train was coming. There's a variety of legitimate reasons an engineer could've missed seeing a lone person with a lantern at 3am.
Was he running too hot? Maybe from our viewpoint. Although I know engineers who still tend to do so. Not violating speed limits, but going in hot towards a speed restriction or a signal and waiting to the last minute to slow down or make the stop. (We call it 'grandstanding.') Usually they don't have problems, however once in a while it catches up with them. Back then, I think engineers, especially passenger engineers, were expected to perform. From their viewpoint back then, he probably wasn't running too much different than most other engineers in his position. If everything turns out OK, no problem. If not, the rules are there to place blame on the employees and protect the company. In some ways that part hasn't changed too much.
Jeff
oldline1Apparently back then it was sort of expected that the engineer make up time and get things back in order. The IC, according to the book, looked the other way when rules were not followed and especially in the case of Casey. His reputation was strong that he'd get it done and they let him run. This time it caught up with him. oldline1
Indeed.. Although Casey had been offically reprimended for rule violations the IC expected their passenger engineers to keep their train on the advertised and to regain time if they was running late.
Could Casey been asleep or in a sleep privation daze until he hit the torpedo? Only Sim Webb could answer that question and that would not be in his best interest to do so in that era.
Still Casey should have slowed before reaching Vaughn instead of blindly speeding into those trains and putting his passengers and follow railroaders in grave danger.
wjstixIf he fell asleep and failed to slow down per orders because he had been running a train continously for 22 hours or whatever, I find it hard to not see him as a victim more than anything else.
According to the book on Casey he was called to take the train and no mention of him having been on duty 20-22 hours or falling asleep. He was an engineer at the turn of the century, proud of his job and dedicated to running on time and making up time when needed. I'm sure those are the reasons he was operating the way he was. Apparently back then it was sort of expected that the engineer make up time and get things back in order. The IC, according to the book, looked the other way when rules were not followed and especially in the case of Casey. His reputation was strong that he'd get it done and they let him run. This time it caught up with him.
oldline1
PRR8259How many of us habitually leave a few minutes late for work or other things, and try to "make time"
.
Not me. I always leave early and allow time for unforseen conditions.
PRR8259How many of us take the posted speed limit as merely a "guideline" and add 10 mph (or more) all the time on the highway?
Not me. I stay in the right lane and obey the speed limit.
PRR8259I see very aggressive drivers each day on the highway.
I do too. I let them pass and continue my trip safely.
I average over 50,000 per year on the highway. I never let bad situations lead to dangerous behaviour.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Anyone who puts in a 20-22 hour shift tends to get a little brain-dead and lethargic.
I remember when I used to plow snow in some of those heavy snow storms. I was so very tired in the morning. Sometimes I wondered who was operating the plow truck or Bobcat the last 10 minutes depending on which one I was operating that night
It never ceased to amaze me the people in the morning that would sneak up behind me when they had a whole parking lot to swing wide and go around. I almost hit a few a few times and I would get so pissed off.
Maybe Casey was just too tired and lethargic to think quick enough to jump out seconds before disaster.
He may have died anyway even if he had jumped. I'm sure the cars derailed in a zig zag pattern every which way. He more than likely would have been crushed and killed, unless he jumped out in enough time to end up near the end of his train.
I guess that's all coulda shoulda woulda
Interesting stuff in your replies here guys.
oldline1He was responsible for placing all those people and property in jeopardy.
If he fell asleep and failed to slow down per orders because he had been running a train continously for 22 hours or whatever, I find it hard to not see him as a victim more than anything else. Even if there weren't 'hog laws' at the time, railroads must have realized the danger they were putting people in by forcing engineers to work for ridiculously long stretches without rest. Seems like Illinois Central figured it was better to hire first-rate trial lawyers (I believe Clarence Darrow was one) who could run circles around uneducated witnesses at trials and make sure the railroad was never found guilty of wrongdoing.
I used to have a hardback biography about Casey Jones. It was interesting and pretty informative. Casey was apparently an extremely gifted engineer able to coax the maximum from his engines. The railroad often relied on him to get late trains over the road. With that said he also was a very arrogant person and frequently flaunted and ignored the rules and the feelings of others. He wasn't all that well liked by his peers because of his personality and nature.
Folklore has made him a hero as a result of fireman Sim Webb's inspiring poem that became a song. He doesn't deserve hero status because he didn't kill everyone on either train. He was responsible for placing all those people and property in jeopardy.
riogrande5761 If what Larry says is true, the title of this topic is false and needs to be updated to reflect reality rather than some misleading romanticized fable.
If what Larry says is true, the title of this topic is false and needs to be updated to reflect reality rather than some misleading romanticized fable.
Jim,There is a ton of information about this wreck on line and in some books that goes deeper then the folklore surrounding this wreck.
Sadly folklore is seldom researched and is accepted as the truth.
As a example common folklore has the Chessie roads merged when in fact they was not merged under the Chessie banner but,the mergers came under the CSX banner. A quick check of the roots of the CSX on the Train Magazine web page will confirm this.
wjstixThe thought at the time was that Jones staying in the cab allowed the train to slow down more than if he had jumped; in fact, some folks noted that his slowing the train from about 60 MPH to 30 MPH in a short period of time was remarkable.
Another question that's been bugging me for years was he to scared to jump or was he trying to correct his mistake? Did he tell Mr.Webb to jump or did he jump on his own? We will never know the truth.
He disobeyed his orders stating he would be meeting trains at Vaughn,He failed to slow for those trains at Vaughn sped into a wreck that was avoildable. Even today that would be the ruling.
Seeing Casey's past rule infringements it comes as no surprise that he would be involved in a major wreck..
Track fiddler Okay this is good, ...I have some closure here. Isn't it funny, my whole life since I was a little boy sitting on the living room floor eating waffles watching crazy Casey Jones coming out in his winter underwear (that should have been my first clue) and seeing his sidekick Roundhouse.... that should have been my second clue. I always thought he was a Railroad hero all these years.
Okay this is good, ...I have some closure here.
Isn't it funny, my whole life since I was a little boy sitting on the living room floor eating waffles watching crazy Casey Jones coming out in his winter underwear (that should have been my first clue) and seeing his sidekick Roundhouse.... that should have been my second clue. I always thought he was a Railroad hero all these years.
Roundhouse Rodney came out in his long underwear, if I remember correctly, and sang "Walking in my Winter Underwear," to the tune of "Walking in a Winter Wonderland."
EDIT: You were right--http://lunchwithcasey.com/main/merry-christmas-from-lunch-with-casey/
wjstix There may some confusion re TV shows. There was a nationally syndicated "Casey Jones" western series in the 1950's, starring Alan Hale Jr. In the 1960's - early 70's there was a local "Lunch with Casey" kid's show here in Minneapolis-St.Paul area.
There may some confusion re TV shows. There was a nationally syndicated "Casey Jones" western series in the 1950's, starring Alan Hale Jr. In the 1960's - early 70's there was a local "Lunch with Casey" kid's show here in Minneapolis-St.Paul area.
http://lunchwithcasey.com/main/about-casey-jones/
I remember watching it before going to afternoon kindergarten...
Gary
BRAKIECasey was found fully responsible for the wreck. Had Casey obeyed his orders he would have slowed before reaching Vaughn and the wreck would have been avoided.
Although still true to some extent today, at that time basically every accident ended up being determined to have been "human (i.e., employee) error" or "an act of God" so that the railroad could say it wasn't legally / financially responsible.
The thought at the time was that Jones staying in the cab allowed the train to slow down more than if he had jumped; in fact, some folks noted that his slowing the train from about 60 MPH to 30 MPH in a short period of time was remarkable.
At the time of the crash, Jones had been running a train for around 20 hours, something that would not be legal today. Railroaders of that time noted in later years that it wasn't that unusual to see a train roll by with the engineer asleep in the cab; it's quite possible that is what happened to Jones and why he didn't slow down until woken up by the torpedo.
Interesting to note that, at a time when it was normal for a couple of railroaders to die each day in the US, the only person ever killed on a train run by Casey Jones was Jones himself.
I’d say the thing with what Casey Jones may or may have not done wrong is a common thing in History. Every person has faults somewhere and that is true for every historical hero and figure too. That shouldn’t change the fact that Casey did a good thing by having Sim jump and sacrificing his life to save passengers on that train. Basically he was willing to risk (and regrettably lose) his life to correct his mistake.
I would guess that Casey is probably exagerated in songs and legends to the point that telling of his story are not always completely true, but Casey is still a memorable figure. I don’t think such thinks discount the value of Casey’s story.
Just my idea and opinions...
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!