My modern era freelance model railroad CVR represents a bridging road between two major routes. BNSF and UP both use CVR trackage but CVR provides a helper service over a pass. CVR also operates its own trains in local service. What would be a reasonably plausible locomotive for CVR to buy and use for helper and local service? Would CVR have new or second hand locos? Would thet try and standardise or would they have an eclectic collection?
Cheers
Bill
Why are they buying only one locomotive for both services?
If the helper service predominates they will buy six axle power to shove the trains over the hump... with secondary thought for its affect on the track on local service. You can always use a cut of cars to reach into a spur with poor track to fish cars out... provided the spur isn't too long. (If it's too long tell them to get a trackmobile).
If local service predominates in the requirement, especially if track condition is a factor, they will go with that smaller lighter power... read on...
You don't state era... OOPS!, yes you do... but you don't "paint the picture". If you're really modern and big time you can use one of those AC things that looks like a tadpole with angled edges... Won't be much fun for the crew switching a local though... unless you put it on a strap-on model aircraft remote control rig and let the engineer walk around on the ground...
I don't know for steam but for diesel they will look for the top of the range that they can afford new or cascaded power for the helper depending on the cash they have available, the prospects of income and the performance their contract has to meet.
For the Local predominance they may be resticted within axle loadings. This could mean a GE 70 ton, a U23B or an SD9 (chopped nose or not)... it all depends... they might even go for a modern dual purpose green switcher with a slug.
What have you got the big boys hauling with? This leads on to how much back-up they need.
If you're going up, then down your CVR locos will almost certainly want dynamic brakes.
In diesel your top favourite has got to be an SD40-2... always lots of them about and then plenty in the re-sale market... all you gotta do is get one that hasn't been blown up. Bit like getting a cheap 2nd hand car. (You might even get the intermediate vendor to dump some weight out for that bad track... at a price... to him and in your service options). At least you should be able to pick up spares cheap... you might even buy a junker and cannibalise it out back of your shops).
You going to spend money repainting it or you going to patch it? (If it's an umpteenth and SD40-2, how many times has it been patched before? How many cannibalised hood doors is it going to have with what liveries?
Okay... so you're feeling rich? How about a GP60 or one of those GE equivalent Dash8-40Bs provided it hasn't been fancified, messed around and made a 38B? You've got power and traction control - if you stump up the cash... and it can go small places... provided the rail weight is okay and the ties are good...You don't want all that cash setting in the dirt.
Then you can always go into the real "pre-used" market. Get yourself a couple of well worn but still good Alco C420s. Pretty loco.
You're skint and need a loco that at least looks big? get an F40 or an F45... give it a nice coat of paint from Wallyworld.
Have fun... ring the changes... one loco at a time, different scenario... different paint jobs.
Nah... get an F7B and use it as a zombie! Now that is distributed power!
OOPS! Again... Would they go standard or eclectic?
When are they buying and what's their budget, mandate, prospects and commitment (as above).
Any sensible CEO will get the best power he can because rolling loads pay and breakdowns cost... So you have to figure out that scenario. When Staggers (IIRC) did his thing and derugulated the Regionals roads like the WC were grabbing what power they could. With the more recent mega mergers a whole load of locos seem to have been dumped off to the leasing market... so your CVR could lease and buy nothing of its own... or some and some.
YOur CVR could have bought what it could (Alcos; even Baldwins), patched them up (including cannibalising) and staggered along. (Some of the skeletons may have become slugs) Then gained traffic (and grants), updated its fleet - maybe some Dash 8s / SD60s - SD60Ms or later? Now it's picked up the bridge traffic contract it might need to lease in power... these could be patched Conrail/SP/CNW/etc SDs or fresh paint AC beasties OR some of each depending on what is available... What's the revenue? What leasing liveries do you like?
Then again you may have a CEO who hates GM/EMD or GE and will only buy in or lease the other...
As far as the "eclectic" goes... no-one lumbers themselves with the need for a large/disparate spares stores inventory these days. This lends toward leasing in extra power. (Sell/donate your old/interesting power to the local park / mall or railfan society. (Then charge the last for track time when they want to play trains and you don't have any serious traffic about). (If you can insure it even let them play with steam... could be Chinese...)
Have fun!
OK a lot there to think about and thank you for your reply.
Its a profitable and well maintained road. The BNSF coal train is hauled by 2 x SD70MAC, UP manifest by SD90/43/AC44 and UP intermodal by 2 x GP60.
CVR also has a lease company so CV Leasing locomotives (Dash 8 - 40CW) are somtimes seen on home rails.
The other locomotives I have, and which I am not sure to paint in CVR colours or onsell, are 1 x U23B and 2 x U30C.
The U23B should be fine for local service but I guess I am wondering if the U30C would be appropriate for the helper service. Or should I buy a pair of SD40-2's?
What about a Kato SD38? or SD45?
One thing that you need to consider is purely a model RR thing...
Whatever you aim to run needs to be compatible.
This is less of a problem if you have DCC and know how to set it up for locos to run together but on straight DC you want to run locos from one maker together and not mix them as a general rule.
As far as I can tell both SD38s and SD45s tended to disappear faster than SD40s and SD40-2 and/or go into fairly restricted use... like pushing cars over humps in classification yards. I would guess that this kept their spares need local to the yard rather than having them out of service at one end of the system until the bits arrived from the other end.
As I posted some time ago my SD38s don't have dynamics... so for assisting over a pass they're not so bright. An SD45 would be better and (IIRC) you can get them from Kato, P2K and Athearn.
Real U30Cs don't seem to have a good reputation... if this is correct I wouldn't expect them to have held on into modern times and especially not into the hard work of helper service. I would tend to keep them but paint them for the road not the leasing company. Put them on MoW ballast trains, maybe "top and tail" with them. If the road got them when it had to because power was short and no-one has since wanted to take them off their hands they could use up their cost write-off this way.
You're right about the U23B. Nice engine.
Overnight I did wonder about using a GP60M on its own for local work with a GP60B added for helper service. (Athearn for both). It would look good. You could even get crazy and send the wide cab off down a branch with a train while the cabless switched industries on a hand held remote control... but that's just being mad This was based on my original misreading of your Q that you /the RR were just getting one loco... well, the combination would be just one cab... so they might swing it past the Board when they weren't paying attention. This depends on the level of demand for helper service and the time that the locos would be away on one job or the other.
The SD40-2s certainly seem to be favourite to me. Available from both Athearn and Kato - maybe BLI as well? BUT remember the thing about compatibility. You might get one of them as an SD40-2T just for a change.
How are you going to run these helpers over the pass?
All dead easy, obvious stuff huh? All good reasons to play trains with variety!
From the model point of view you might also have to juggle which helper goes on which train in order to match the model makers within each loco consist.
f you are cutting in/out on scene where are the helpers moving onto the train from/off of the train to... it can be a facility -as little as a spur- on scene... or it can be off scene.... then again, your scene might include the beginning of the track that goes to the wye (or is part of the wye)... in that case the helper can come off of a train, trundle off onto the Wye and off scene, get turned and trundle back for the next cut in... with variations...
Hope this helps
and that others will throw in some ideas and/or examples of how things are done PLEASE!
Then again...
The U 23B could handle the local in the flat lands and one of the U30Cs could take it into the bumpy bit... maybe swapping trains at your location.
I'm wondering whether your helpers might have road slugs attached to ensure that the extra power they supply gets down onto the rails... this will apply especially if you have bad grades with bad curves and/or things get wet and slippy.
I've never seen or heard of a road slug with dynamics... but I have heard of brake tenders... can someone inform us on this please? I guess that you could invent your own road slug with dynamics... what would it look like?
IIRC some road slugs still have their cab... this would mean that they could back-to-back with their loco and the set would not need to be wyed.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman wrote:One thing to consider is that both class 1 railroads are using AC power, that means they will be moving at a speed less than the continuous speed of a DC locomotive on a grade. -----------.
Why is that Dave (Husman, to avoid confusion)?
Thanks to Dave-the-Train for thoughtful responses. Very interesting, even though I am comfortably stuck in the steam age and don't understand the alphabet soup of loco model names.
Isambard
Grizzly Northern history, Tales from the Grizzly and news on line at isambard5935.blogspot.com
Hey isambard! I'm glad you asked that for me!
As for UP/BNSF using their own helpers... there's a magnetic anomoly in the mountain right over a curved tunnel going up into the pass and it messes up radio signals so Dispersed Power isn't reliable.
Therefore the CV has to provide power.
You might also do as the CNW did and have cab signals which would mean that the foriegn run-throughs had to be piloted by a home loco on the point. This solves the question of where the helpers go on the train. It's not so good if you want to model signals
Otherwise just play with leased power...
Ok I have a classification yard at the bottom of the grade. I have put in a spur off the main for the helpers. Helpers could go on the point or push. The grade takes trains from the lower level to the upper level of a two deck layout but rails haven't reached the upper level yet. The grade represents a climb to a pass and plateau so helpers are only needed on one side. I plan to put a siding or spur at the top for the helpers to lay up in and catch the next suitable train back.
Does DP Dispersed Power refer to locomotives placed throughout the train? The comment about UP/BNSF providing their own helpers - does this mean they would provide sufficient power to get the train between division points or would they place helpers where needed bearing in mind this is a foreign road?
Also the comment about AC/DC - is it usual not to mix types?
Thanks for all your help.
After reading this topic it sounds to me like the closest real railroad to what you want your layout to be is the Montana Rail Link. Consider looking for detailed info on how they deploy their helpers on their trains and on the run through BNSF trains they operate.
Some thoughts I've had...
MRL mainly used rebuilt SD40's and SD45's(rebuilt and unrebuilt) in sets of 2 to 8 units to push trains over Bozeman and Mullan (Mullan is a 2.2% grade) passes from startup until the SD70ACe's arrived. I believe they use sets of 2 to 5 of the ACe's now on most trains, but I may be wrong. I remember seeing and/or reading that the coal trains BNSF sends west over MRL are equiped with distributed power units (3-1 or 2-2 or 3-2 layout, not sure) all the way from the PRB and still have MRL helpers added to them to get over the mountains. Also remember that MRL, I believe, usually has more than one set of helpers ready to be used and that power may return back down the grade as light engines.
BNSF uses its own manned helpers on its line over Crawford Hill in Nebraska. For quite a while they were using sets of 4 SD40-2's/C30-7's and later 2 or 3 SD60's with 3 to 4 different sets in use at one time.
Now you say that your going to have a classification yard at the bottom of the grade. Is that your railroad's primary yard? Are you going to have an engine servicing facility? Your helpers will need fuel and sand regularly. Maybe just a sanding tower and fuel stand on your spur track.
In my personal opinion, if I were having to choose units for helpers, I would probably use SD40-2's or SD45's. If I modeled modern times and had a busy bridge line, I might go for AC4400's or SD70MAC's instead.
As for AC and DC units mixing, it happens, but for your helper sets you would probably want to use near identical units because of the different operating characteristics of the units.
I hadn't paid a lot of attention to your remark about the classification yard...
Why are you classifying here? classification usually happens at big junctions or just short f them... you are classifying to divide trains up for the different routes the consist elements will go forward on.
There's no problem about this... your layout may be doing exactly this... with the junction off scene.
if you're not doing that your yard can just be a staging yard... trains on long runs have to be brought in to change/refuel and inspect locos - you can change crews at the same time - also to have the cars in the consist inspected.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
There's no need for dynamics if the train engines carry sufficient brake force to control trains down a grade. If helpers are only shoving and not assisting down grade they don't need dynamics.
As for Geeps and SDs having the same output... This would seem doubtful... at the least why would RR ever have spent the extra buying SDs if Geeps could do the same work? maybe that isn't what you meant...?
My staging yard is just beyond the class yard. The staging yard is intended to represent trains from two origins, say from NE and SE. Same on the upper deck but representing NW and SW. So trains arriving from lower staging and are sorted at the class according to destination. However the helper service was only intended for through trains which would not be sorted at the class yard.
Sorry I don't have a track plan that I can post but it is similiar to the Emporia Sub from June 2004 MR http://www.emporiasub.com/lower.html
From the posts above it seems as though I should either put enough locos on the through train or spot a couple of BNSF and UP helpers rather than having CVRail provide the helpers. Saves a repainting job too.
The comment about SD & GP performance is of interest too. Recently I was looking for the Tractive Effort values for GP60 and SD60. Do SD's have a higher TE or is their main benefit a lower axle load?
ie what is the benefit of six axles over four?
You are spoilt for choice...
You can...
Do you want to do a repaint? I think that tou've sussed out that you will need more than one loco on hand (how's your painting skills/wallet/pocket book?
If UP or BNSF keep power at your location they're going to have to pay for the trackage... this doesn't have to be cash... they might shove CVR trains up the grade as payment...
You can ring the changes...
CVR units might not be held in reserve for Helper service - it has to pay to keep them out of other work - so you might provide helpers with whatever is available and compatible at the time.
Similarly UP/BNSF aren't going to leave expensive new locos sitting around on someone else's track just to push an occassional train... so you're back at SD40-2s or similar... or back to leese locos again.
So many choices!
An embarrassment of riches!
bagal wrote:My modern era freelance model railroad CVR represents a bridging road between two major routes. BNSF and UP both use CVR trackage but CVR provides a helper service over a pass. CVR also operates its own trains in local service. What would be a reasonably plausible locomotive for CVR to buy and use for helper and local service? Would CVR have new or second hand locos? Would thet try and standardise or would they have an eclectic collection? Cheers Bill
If it was my railroad or my client's railroad, and the industry track could tolerate six-axle locomotives without having to replace a lot of ties, then SD40-2s would be a good choice. If the industry tracks couldn't do that, then either GP38-2s or B23-7s would be a fine choice, unless I could get a good deal on GP40-2s, GP50s, or B30-7s. The 3000 hp four-axles have higher maintenance costs and fuel burn, and would provide very little extra performance in either helper or local service. I'd avoid pre Dash-2 EMDs unless they'd been rewired with microprocessor control equipment and were late production in good condition. I'd avoid any pre Dash 7 GE under any circumstance.
New power such as AC4400s or SD70ACEs is out of the question; it would just substantially increase costs over SD40-2s because most of the time it wouldn't be doing anything except sitting around.
The Class I doesn't really care if you push their train with a team of oxen so long as you deliver consistent performance.
S. Hadid
1435mm wrote: The Class I doesn't really care if you push their train with a team of oxen so long as you deliver consistent performance. S. Hadid
Best post in this thread so far!
6-axle will pull more at lower speeds. Most 4-axle power will pull about the same at low speeds. Once you get the train wound up, it takes more HP to keep the train moving. The extra HP is for going faster. B&O/C&O went in big for GP40s-GP40-2s.
Electrics and diesel-electrics have a lot of grunt when starting. As the speed increases, the tractive effort goes down, based on HP available. Electrics can draw from the overhead and keep pulling at higher speeds, while diesels are limited to the onboard power plant.
A SD60 will start a heavier train than a GP60. Once you get up to 20-30 mph or faster, it takes HP to keep up those speeds, and the GP60 pull about the same, figuring 2+ HP/ton. The per-axle loads are pretty close, around 66,000 lbs/axle. SDs are harder on track.
Some roads used road slugs between pairs of GP40s. This would give the tractive effort of a pair of SD40-2s at lower speeds (under 25 mph), with less damage to the track. The slugs would become ineffective around that speed, and the GP40s on their own would take over.
https://www.getransportation.com/general/LocoAnalyzer/displayjpg.asp?type=AC4400_TE.gif
The link is for the tractive effort curve of a AC4400. It starts out high, then drops as speed increases.
Dave-the-Train wrote:There's no need for dynamics if the train engines carry sufficient brake force to control trains down a grade. If helpers are only shoving and not assisting down grade they don't need dynamics.As for Geeps and SDs having the same output... This would seem doubtful... at the least why would RR ever have spent the extra buying SDs if Geeps could do the same work? maybe that isn't what you meant...?
Dynamics are the engine braking force. The independent air brakes on the engine is for low speed, 10 mph or less. Sometimes, the jammer won't hold the train back at 10 mph and you need to set some air or use dynamics, if available. Otherwise, you would need to set the air brakes on the train.
WSOR 3801 wrote: Dave-the-Train wrote: There's no need for dynamics if the train engines carry sufficient brake force to control trains down a grade. If helpers are only shoving and not assisting down grade they don't need dynamics.As for Geeps and SDs having the same output... This would seem doubtful... at the least why would RR ever have spent the extra buying SDs if Geeps could do the same work? maybe that isn't what you meant...? Dynamics are the engine braking force. The independent air brakes on the engine is for low speed, 10 mph or less. Sometimes, the jammer won't hold the train back at 10 mph and you need to set some air or use dynamics, if available. Otherwise, you would need to set the air brakes on the train.
Dave-the-Train wrote: There's no need for dynamics if the train engines carry sufficient brake force to control trains down a grade. If helpers are only shoving and not assisting down grade they don't need dynamics.As for Geeps and SDs having the same output... This would seem doubtful... at the least why would RR ever have spent the extra buying SDs if Geeps could do the same work? maybe that isn't what you meant...?
Thanks
My darkness is being lightened!
As I understqand them dynamic brakes work on the principle that instead of the loco's electric motors having power put into them to rotate them and drive the loco on the flat or uphill they are -somehow - switched so that the opposite happens... that is, they resist turning and are pushed downhill by the weight of the train... in this situation they make electricity as they are forced to turn and this power is burnt off through the system that includes the fans in the dynamic brake blister/housing on top of the loco.
(London Underground Tube trains have a similar system - can't rcall what it's name is - but as they are 4th rail electric they don't burn off the power generated by braking but put it back into the system - the advantages of this for the tube {I've been told} are that they can use harder acceleration up to higher speeds between very close together stations because they can then stop harder. They also don't produce the same amount of dust from conventional mechanical "gripping" brakes... dust is a significant issue in the underground --- the people employed to remove it are called "Fluffers". They have traditionally been a largely female work force---)
So... anyway -
It makes sense that as the train gets slower the turning of the motors will be less and so there will be less dynamic brake force available. That would mean that the loco's conventional brakes would be needed to stop the train and/or the trains continuous brakes would need to be brought into play.
Some years ago I read a superb item in "Trains" magazine called (IIRC) "Terror on the Mountain" about an intermodal that lost its brakes all round (I never heard how/why) coming down out of the Rockies (I think). Anyone know what issue that article was in? It gave a really good account of both train operation and what went on.
I've introduced dynamics in the "what loco" equation because stopping a train is more important and can be a more complicated issue than either getting it started or keeping it moving. If you are on the front end of a few thousand tons you want to be pretty sure that you have a good chance of stopping in most normal situations and as many unusual situations as possible. There are whole charts/lists of equations of what combination of brakes will stop what tonnages over what roads. Usually only Engineers and Conductors get to use these and modellers aren't aware of them too often... unlike an extra loco on the front to pull up the hill the paperwork doesn't show up much. BUT I'm told that. sometimes st least, some of those extra locos aren't there to get the loco up nthe hill but to provide the extra dynamics going down the other side... Maybe someone can confirm this?
The more rolling braking ability you have the higher speed you can maintain.
Before continuous and dynamic brakes trains would crawl to a stop short of a bad down grade. The brakemen would already be winding on brakes on the cars. They would then set as many brakes as instructed. The loco(s) then lugged the braked cars over the edge onto the downgrade and the train would ease down the hill slowly with the brakesmen riding the cars adding more brakes as needed to keep the speed down. When they started to clear the hill the brakes could be wound back off and the train continue on its way without another stop. Clearly you have to be a lot more careful - and go slower - when you are depending on men moving about on top of the rolling cars to maintain your braking ability than when you have two or three lots of brake available at the touch of a control from the cab. [loco brakes, train brakes and dynamics].
All braking depends on the maintenance of grip/friction between the wheels and the rail. If you lose this you effectively have no brakes at all... same as a car when you skid.
A motor and a generator is the same piece of hardware, just hooked up differently. In dynamic braking, the traction motors are hooked up as generators. The force of the train pushing turns the wheels, if you have traction. The current created is dissipated as heat in the dynamic grids.
In electrics, usually they can return the juice to the overhead ("regenerative braking"). This has the effect of spinning the meter backwards, or helping another train on the line to get up a hill.
Most dynamics lose effectiveness around 10 mph. The new AC traction jobs can use dynos down to 0 mph.
In the old days before dynamics they would use the train air brakes. Each car has a retainer valve. It is a valve that controls how fast the brake cylinders release air, thereby releasing the brakes. Most of the time they are in the Direct Exhaust position. In heavy grade areas, they would stop the train and turn the retainers to a different setting. This would allow the engineer to release the brakes to recharge the train line for the next application. While the trainline was recharging, the cylinders were still applied. They might either have a Slow Direct exhaust, where the cylinders would release, but very slowly. Or there was a High Pressure setting, which I believe leaves a 20 psi cylinder pressure on, keeping the brakes on for a safe descent. At the bottom of the hill the retainers would have to be turned back to the normal position. Usually would stop for a while to let the wheels cool as well, as they used cast iron brake shoes back then. Still some in use, but the vast majority are composition shoes now.