would a pair of e8's be used on a coal drag.

[lrsr]

I have a pair of E8's AB and was wondering if they would be used as power on a coal consit or boxcar/mixed freight in the after steam era. I also run smoothside passenger trains pulled by AA E8 pairs. I am modelling freelance passenger coal and general freight country and small town big city staging.

Ronij  

[johncolley]

Ronnij, In my limited exposure, I would highly doubt it. The E's were primarily built and geared for high speed lightweight passenger runs. They would not likely be able to get the coal drag moving, and would not handle any grades with that heavy a load. Point of fact, GN started its new Empire Builder in the late '40's with a pair of E7's they were great across the plains but bogged down in the Rockies and Cascades, so they were pulled off and assigned to lighter, shorter run trains. The E.B. got specially geared 3 or 4 unit F7's and did fine in the mountains. but as the saying goes"It's your railroad", Run them and Enjoy! jc5729

[rrandb]

The other draw back of the E's for freight service even if you regeared the motors was they were A1A-A1A trucks. That is only 4 of the 6 axels were powered and only 66% of their weight was avalable for tractive effort. They were sprinters and long distance runners but not weight lifters.

[joseph2]

Back in the 1970's the Erie Lackawanna used E8A's to haul freight trains.These were originally used on passenger trains but after most passenger trains were abolished they were used on freight.The gearing was changed so they had a lower top speed.I used to watch three unit lash ups on general freight trains,don't think I ever saw them on a coal drag though.  Joe

[orsonroy]

The E-L E units were used on the relatively flat Erie grades towards Chicago, mostly on TOFC trains. A few roads regeared E's for freight service (the Rock Island and PC come to mind) and none of them found them to be satisfactory in that service. It was a rare and failed experiment of the early 1970s.

[JonathanS]

Because they had relatively low tractive effort E8s would not be a good choice for a coal drag.  When Penn Central demoted their E8s and E7s to freight they were primarily used on TOFC and COFC trains.  Only rarely would you see them on anything else.

[ndbprr]

In addition to the posted comments some other thoughts apply.  E8's couldn't even pull passenger trains up serious grades.  That is why the ATSF had F units.  Ther gearing was designed for flat land speed and would need to be changed.  The PRR used them in Tructrain service and basically ran them into the ground before scrapping them.  So on a coal drag?   Absolutely not (unless of course it was downhill all the way!).

[Dave-the-Train]

Did anyone use E8s to haul Reefers in block trains?

[Newyorkcentralfan]

There was a Paint Shop article in MR about 25 years ago where a guy did a freelanced E unit or two for pusher/helpers on a grade.

That was a way of using them for a not too demanding service where theycould be used at maximum effort for a short period of time with a long cool down afterwards as they ran downgrade light to the begining of the helper district.

[orsonroy]

Did anyone use E8s to haul Reefers in block trains?

Not that I'm aware of. As stated before, general merchandise trains would have been too heavy for E-8's. When they did run, especially on the E-L, they usually ran as three engine sets hauling mostly TOFC, which is relatively light.

[rtstasiak]

PA's, the ALCO counterpart to EMD's E-series, were often placed in "light freight" service when passenger service was cut back.  The Lehigh Valley used its PA's in A-A consists to handle light transfer runs (say, 30 mixed cars), such as the Sayre to Binghamton service until these units were scrapped and traded.  The PA's were sometimes used on work trains, but did not lend themselves to back up moves.  The Nickel Plate regeared its PA's and dumped them into the general locomotive pool until trading or scrapping.  My NKP recollections have the PA's mixed with 2 or 3 road switchers in general service.

An oddball item off the PRR involves the regearing and reweighting of A-B-A PA sets for use in mineral drag service.  The caption in TRAINS from the late 1950's showed these critters in green and gold tugging hoppers.  I assume that this conversion lost out to conventional cab units and newfangled roadswitchers.

On the EMD E-7 and E-8 side, my old neighbors down Union Road in East Buffalo, the New York Central and Penn Central, ran mail trains with baggage cars, RPOs, express cars (insulated, refrigerated, steel, or wood), flexi-van COFC cars, crew, rider cars, and sometimes a coach AND a caboose.  The Big Mail ran with 4-E units, was over 1,500 feet long, scorched the ballast at 80-plus, and sounded like the business end of a WW-II bombing raid pulling into town.  It had a way of being noticed.  There weren't any hoppers or gons, but rumor has it that milk tank cars and carloads of seafood ("Sorry Charlie!") could be found from time to time.

Rich

[lrsr]

Thanks Guys.   I guess that answers that. I now have a spare AB set of E8's that I will look for another use for. I could run a TOFC unit as I have a spine car set but the locos look too heavy in front of 8 semi trailer boxes on spine cars. I may do a sell on Ebay and buy some SD40 units or such like. Thanks again  

[rrandb]

The FEC's strike and ensuing embargo of all passenger serviced sidelined there E's in about 1963. They too tried the E's in freight service and this was on a board flat mainline. The disatvantage is two engines gulping #2 diesel but only 4 traction motors. They were like 2 GE 50T (i.e. 2 powered axels) with 1200hp engines. Thats OK as long as there are enough Pullman/Parlor car passengers paying for fuel. Freight however does not have a first class at least not back then. They soon where held in reserve unless absolutley needed. Do what they did and trade them in on some used SD's(GP's) aka EB

[rtstasiak]

Thanks Guys.   I guess that answers that. I now have a spare AB set of E8's that I will look for another use for. I could run a TOFC unit as I have a spine car set but the locos look too heavy in front of 8 semi trailer boxes on spine cars. I may do a sell on Ebay and buy some SD40 units or such like. Thanks again  

Actually, the "heavy locos in front of spine cars" is pretty close to the way the old NYC and PC E's looked in front of flexi-van cars.  Take a look at this example from the 1960s:

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/nyc_flexivan.jpg

These are essentially two platform spine cars.  Express refrigerators, express boxcars, baggage, and RPO's were common on these trains, but it would not be too much of a stretch to add regular piggybacks, container cars, or conventional boxcars & reefers on the back of such a train.  They would be placed in back because they did not have steam and signal connections for passenger use.  You might also get away with a CLEAN gondola or two of frozen food or merchandise containers, but don't forget the caboose.  By the way, these guys never went to freight yards and did most of the switching for their pick-ups and set-outs at passenger stations with their big E's.  Engineers kneeled on their seats to look backwards in tropical paradises like Buffalo, Cleveland, and Chicago.

Flexivans also came in an auto carrier version.  Here's an old auto semi for picture for reference:

http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/tony_gussie/july30/cars4west01.jpg

Get an old EKO or ConCor auto carrier truck and drop the trailer with wheels on a platform (spine car or pig flat) and you can run a version of "auto racks a-la intermodal."  Strick Corp. made the trailer wheels removable so that the flexi-van system could be used for auto carriers.  Sounds like you find examples of everything but hoppers?

Final point: It is your railroad.  If you want to pull coal trains with E's, feel free because it's supposed to be a fun and educational hobby.  Somehow I know that a real railroad was up against the wall and sent out E's with two dozen coal cars because moving freight paid the bills.  I'll bet the FEC units hauled hoppers with E's during the big strike of the 1960's--go with it!  If road switchers were stranded by weather or a derailment, a good trainamster would pull cars to their destination with his (now, his/her) teeth.

Vaya con Dios.
Rich

[rrandb]

The only photo evidence I have of FEC E's and freight is a static shot of an E7B 1052 parked at the Miami Station coupled to a cab unit(unknown) and an ACL boxcar #1875 with roof walk intact.and vertical brakewheel. I will buy express freight or a light extra section. FEC hopper trains from the pits in South Florida are the equivelent of BNSF/UP/N&W coal drags. It would take their entire stable of E's ot even move them much less deliver them. As they approach their destination in City Point Park/Rinker Materials north of Cocoa FL they are at the second highest point in Florida. You can hear them coming  from a mile away and those EMD's are talking for all they are worth. The single E's were only assigned to 7 or 8 streamlined lightweight coaches. Any more and they got another A or B unit. If you put more than 8 or 10 small hoppers or 4 or 5 "286" hoppers per "E" the trainmasters teeth are going to get a workout.

[Dave-the-Train]

Given the age of a lot of trainmasters back then... what denture fixative did they use?  It must have been good! 

Just had a brainwave (or meltdown).  Can denture fixative be used to temporarily locate little people for photos to be taken of the layout?

[MStLfan]

Some time ago Classic trains had an article about moving coal to the Great Lakes and moving iron ore back. If I remember correctly there was a reference to the PRR moving empty hoppers from one harbor to another via NYC trackage rights. I think the accompanying picture showed E-units (or were they F's, more logical?).

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Anonymous]

I saw e's on the Erie-Lackawanna back in the '70's on the old Erie mainline in  New York(mountainous), pulling a shorter freight(25-30) cars, so it's plausible.

It's your railroad, so use them on a regular freight, or pulling empty hoppers back to mines, keep them shorter, it'll work, sometimes railroads used what ever motive power was available.

[brokemoto]

There are a few well known photographs of Jade Green cigar band NYC E-units pulling general merchandise freight trains in Michigan.  Some of the roads that did not lose their E-units to AMTRAK did use them on freights until retirement, but I, too, doubt that it would have been on coal trains.

Remember, too, that E-7s had a nasty habit of overheating as they climbed hills.  The story goes that when the EMD salesmen were talking to the railroads about passenger diesels, they asked where the railroad planned to use the locomotives.  If it were hilly country, the EMD salesforce would advise passenger F-3s, if flatland, E-units.